Political Situation (PvP 1 EU)

[Prater]

As perfidious as the British you are lapdogs to. Showing again the SLMFr are just SLRN with a different name.

 

I don't know about that.  If Grim is in SLMFr, I trust him, and I think a lot of other US captains trust him as well.

 

 

 how many other was can you say, get out we are coming in?

 

1. Renounce claims to all ports in the Gulf of Mexico

 

is false.

[nakorbc]

Look gentlemen... last I checked and if I need to copy and past my PM between you'll to (which is really crazy) this is a game!  My personal feelings didn't get hurt and I conveyed my impressions and thoughts with both TDA and TF.  Why would you not stop me every single time I told you I was talking to TDA, MRF, and others?  Why would you let me continue just to attempt to public hurt my name?  Why would you make a personal attack?  I even sent you both thank you PM for role playing through this and instead of doing that you have made a personal attack on me?  Why?  Like I said above, I'm big enough to apologize publicly if i'm wrong, but I have been talking for hours and hours with people in 3 different nations to ensure this didn't step on "feelings".  This is a game Captains a game!!  If you'll can't play a game without feelings getting hurt may I suggest playing a game that is totally scripted without a meta-game that is player driven?

[Prater]

First, where did I attack you? And I posted our entire online conversation except for the part where I said (prior to knowing TF Thomas Pain had been ganked by French forces) that US forces could be used elsewhere anyway atm.

 

In your role play, you state that we essentially held a gun to your head, which is false.  I posted our online conversation to show you that your portrayal of us pointing a gun at your head is only false propaganda.

[nakorbc]

Correct Sir! As I informed you in your PM Role-Play!!!  This is an attempt to build a story line and have fun.. not to question your integrity, or misquote you.  It was common practice and even still is today for nations to spread propaganda that is designed to turn nations against nations.  I'm RP'ing.

 

 

If i'm wrong, ok.  However, how does showing our personal conversation even in parts add to the RP of this forum thread?  It seems more like your trying to discredit me in the eyes of others that I speak out of place and not for others.  If that was the wrong way to read what you posted, ok.  can you please clarify? 

[Prater]

I have not received any message about your above post and role playing (in fact, I do not know that I have role played in this thread at all, except for what I write below.  Where does it say, in the First Post, RP thread?).

 

You are indeed free to say we held a gun up to your head, whether it was true or false.  I am free to state that it was false, whether that is true or false.  As for trying to discredit your letter to the people of Naval Action, I am indeed trying to discredit it by showing our personal letters.  You can have your version of the story.  I have mine, others might have another version.  It is up to people to decide which version is the best to be relied upon, unless evidence is brought forth.

 

 

The French are trying to spread false propaganda.  No gun was held to their diplomats head and there was no demand for them to completely leave the Gulf.  They attacked a US diplomatic ship.  A US squadron was sent there in response to patrol the waters in the North Gulf.  The French are fabricating reasons for going to war with the United States.

[Grim DeGrim]

Boys boys boys. Simmer down!

Nakor is one of the best at spinning a good yarn. The RP is all in good jest, and actually quite entertaining

TDA / TF - is going to be a few weeks before we are setup to give you even a decent fight. You can roll in now and squish us while the getting is good. Or you can let the drink ferment a bit more, where you can actually savour the flavour.

Ball is in your court. I'm still in basic cutter. I've all the desire to fight, but none of the tools.

And allow a man to RP some! Alot of effort goes into that.

I've got your back Nakor.

[BramtheDutch]

Roleplay is always fun, but it should not get in the way of the intention of this thread, politics.

[Prater]

I have nothing against his RP (which belongs in another thread). But if he RP's that we have attacked a French Diplomatic ship and captured French and Spanish Diplomats and how we held guns to their head without our permission or without it actually happening, we are free to deny it as false. Whether it really happened or not, is besides the point and I dont know if it can be proven or not, and so, we are free to claim that the French are spreading False Propaganda, unless they bring forth evidence. It could have happened, maybe it didn't. I would still claim it was false even if it did happen, but to my knowledge it did not happen.

[Anaïs Desruisseaux]

This is an unfortunate turn of events

[Johny Reb]

I, the leader of Tattered Flags submit to this court of public opinion that I trust has the proper judgment to judge the validity of French "propaganda." We are all familiar with the Frogs abuse of a language that is not their own. We see how they deceitfully use the word liberty for their tyranny by enforcing it through secret police and the sharpened blade of the guillotine.

 

We have received copies of a piece of extraordinary literature used to delude the humble farmers and subjects of their colonies. They seek to justify and raise support for a war that they are likely to loose. The nations of the Caribbean know better then to believe this rabble. They are not as gullible as the uneducated peasants that inhabit their territories.

 

We are not Europe and from a viewpoint of a nation not involved with politics of Kingdoms and tyrannies it is quite clear that Napoleon desires to be a world dictator and offers of peace from his subordinates is for the sole purpose of building stregnth out of weakness so that war can be waged as soon as his neighbor drops his guard.

 

Let me outline some examples of their manipulation:

1. Asking their emissary why we should allow the presence of a nation that is in an alliance that has declared all out War with to remain on our flank is not the same as telling them to pack their chests.

2. An offer by them to provide us economic aid and resources in exchange for peace cannot be rewritten as we demand rent.

3. The fact is that the American nation cannot coexist with an enemy on our flank that is at war with us. To build trust we requested they publicly renounce their part in that alliance. Never would the US demand that another nation war against their friends and force them into conflict. Non-aggression pacts are their business not ours.

4. Our allies have proven they are capable of handling themselves. Why would we even need to ask the french to lay off?

5. Can a nation only have an alliance with guilds? Treaties are made with nations and not with segments of its population but for the cause of sedition. We make treaty with SLMF and still the next day we are attacked by French. If this is to be the case then why make a treaty? Treaties are meaningless if they are not agreed upon by the greater extent of the population.

 

The court can now judge. The American conscience is clear as was it with the Spanish. Our offer was tough but forced upon us by circumstances.

[Chustler]

U.S. Relations have been simple as far as I have seen.

After wipe

We started taking ports in Florida and Bahamas, as anyone would expect.

We clashed with pirates and continue to do so.

Even though we took a peaceful posture with the Spanish, they took to ganking lone American ships in southern Florida. We maintained a peaceful posture. Spanish RAE leaders led a gank group into Bahamas against TDA members. Spanish were defeated, but in battle chat made it clear that they were not going to be peaceful with us and that "it is nothing personal". We decided that was fine and considered that a declaration of hostility. American fleets began taking Spanish ports and war ensued. Simple.

French players in Louisianna have been trying to broker an agreement to remain in that area, but most American leadership are not comfortable with having potential friends of British SLRN having access on our back door so no agreement was reached.

America would like to have friends in the region, but unfortunately, we have not been that fortunate. We are reasonable guys, but between pirates and British allies around us, we have had to fend for ourselves and fight for what we have. All good. This is a game of naval warfare, and we will have no shortage it seems.

[Grim DeGrim]

We're old buddies Chustler.  We should have a beer and talk this British SLRN thing over.

[marecek05]

This thread is getting weird.

U.S. Relations have been simple as far as I have seen.

After wipe

We started taking ports in Florida and Bahamas, as anyone would expect.

We clashed with pirates and continue to do so.

Even though we took a peaceful posture with the Spanish, they took to ganking lone American ships in southern Florida. We maintained a peaceful posture. Spanish RAE leaders led a gank group into Bahamas against TDA members. Spanish were defeated, but in battle chat made it clear that they were not going to be peaceful with us and that "it is nothing personal". We decided that was fine and considered that a declaration of hostility. American fleets began taking Spanish ports and war ensued. Simple.

French players in Louisianna have been trying to broker an agreement to remain in that area, but most American leadership are not comfortable with having potential friends of British SLRN having access on our back door so no agreement was reached.

America would like to have friends in the region, but unfortunately, we have not been that fortunate. We are reasonable guys, but between pirates and British allies around us, we have had to fend for ourselves and fight for what we have. All good. This is a game of naval warfare, and we will have no shortage it seems.

 

Basically this.

 

We wanted to be left alone in Louisianna, US doesn't feel comfortable with that and wanted guarantees and concessions, which we do not see as reasonable. All nice, fair and understandable. I don't see any skulduggery in this confilct of interests. It's PVP server after all. 

 

We view our mutual relations as difficult at best, although at the time of writing this post, I am not aware of war being declared. I trust that without any regard to the current diplomatic status, the relationship will continue to be respectful from both sides.

 

In regards to SLVF. Both SLRN and SLMFr fleets are independent and free to pursue their own diplomatic allignment and are under no obligation to each other, other then being respectful. I thus respect and am friendly and courteous to members of SLRN, but not only SLRN, asi I tend to adopt this attitude towards all players in the game and I encourage this behaviour in all our members.

[Charles Caldwell]

Chustler Sir,

 

Friends and respect are earnt... and friends are not gained with cheap propaganda and belittlement. Today I have read nothing but venom coming from the USN towards the French, yet on the other hand you clearly state your desire for friends in the region.

 

How do you think this is possible if you do nothing other than fill the boards with cheap shots and bemoan every Fleet that borders you?

 

You also constantly reference us the SLRN, yet with your own admission we have not yet come to blows. Its almost bordering infatuation!

 

..... I can assure you we have no influence over the respected SLMFr, they are independent and masters of their own destiny. Yet you have failed to show them any respect, even calling them "Lapdogs of the British", I mean please. You in the USN seem to have the impressive ability to drive wedges between most the Fleets in game, without any need for outside help. I'd like to say carry on the good work, but with the common threat of the Pirate scourge we may have to be unlikely partners in the future.

 

If I can give any advice sir, build bridges, dont knock them down!

[Llewellyn Jones RN]

I think it's time for a little history lesson in Sealords as a community to get things in perspective.

When I joined Sealords RN in 2004 we played a small but very well designed game called Age of Sail 2 using dial up connections and game spy the community we had then was more about the role play on the forums there was no TS.

In that age we fought forum wars as game spy was generally unreliable as was the dial up connection getting a 2v2 fight in AOS was quite a strain but fight we did scenarios were created officers sailed ships based on your ranks in the respective navies alliances were formed between nations wars were fought between nations.

We had most European powers the had a reasonable size navy represented and many of those players are here now in this game.

Representing Marine Francaise MFr we have D'Orleans, Marion van Ghant(sadly not playing NA)

Representing Royal Swedish Navy we have Claren and FuryGer

Representing Royal Danish Navy William De Ruyter now playing USN here I think not 100% on that

Representing Imperial Russian Navy we have Ink now playing Dutch in NA and a forum Admin

Representing USN we have Jonathan Styles now playing Brit in SLRN, Paul Overend now playing SLRN

Representing SLRN we have myself, Charles Caldwell, James White not playing atm, Henage Dundas to name but a few.

Representing the Spanish and Free spirited Captains I have no knowledge.

There are others that are playing or have the game but are not currently playing.

Those that I have mentioned here could easily back me up when I say we have a fantastic community within Sealords and our friendships have come from many years fighting each other be it in Age of Sail 2, privateers Bounty, Pirates of the Burning seas it even Naval Action.

What I am trying to say is that SLMFr are no way our lapdogs but they are part of the greater community that is Sealords. When we ressurected Sealords brought it out of the doldrums so to speak it was with a thought that some of the other fleets would like to do the same sadly only MFr have done so it is really only a name in thier title and I am sure the guys in MFr are proud of the history surrounding Sealords.

The fact that our two alliances are in mutually agreed NAPs right now is a result of a common purpose and down to politics with a needs must policy that was born out of the aggression and wanton ganking and seal clubbing by USN, Danish and Dutch forces around our home ports in earlier iterations of this game the alliances that formed between the SLRN, MFr and RAE formed.

Prior to the last wipe we had a NAP with the USN under TF and TDA they decided that when the time period ended they did not wish to continue and attacked we opted for all out war and went for it TF so I firmly lay the blame at TF's door for thier expansionist path rather than coming to a mutual agreement with the local French alliance.

Ultimately no Clan can control individual players within thier nation we have it atm certain Brit alliances are hell bent on ruining all our effort to break our alliances with RAE by attacking Spanish players /ports without consulting them this is something we as the SLRN have no control even though we have tried.

[Grim DeGrim]

I didn't know about William de Rutter. That's awesome, we're old potbs adversaries.

[BramtheDutch]

Changelog:

 

*Added AO to US clans.

*Removed one typo (Yes, I was suprised to find one after checking it over 20 times).

*Layout corrections.

*Added GAY to Pirate clans.

*Added ZEUS to British clans.

Edited February 4, 2016 by bramluijken

[nakorbc]

The purpose of this tread was politics. What I did via RP was announce our political situation and put forth the reason. If you would not like RP in this tread, even though I've seen it in the past, then I will stop from now on.

What happen is US claim a French player ganked them.

French players in gulf don't feel it was a member of our clans as we only had 6th rate ships at the time

US blockaded ports and chats 6th rate ships across the LA coast with organized squads at frigate strength. Usually 3 or more players in those groups.

I started talking to EDR and other nations including the US and Brits. This was as a result to the 3 days of port blockades and above aggression. It was the plan to peacefully work with the US but that didn't happen.

I sent personal pm to both TF and TDA asking them to stop and why it started

TDA did t know what was happening TF informed us to what occurred.

A very friendly and great negotiation between TF and us began. Long and short was France needed to go. TF couldn't get anyone in the US to agree to letting us stay in any part of modern day USA.

That means we must have conflict. Until a port reset which might happen next soft wipe. Or we reclaim New France and negotiate a peace.

I apologize for what seemed like deceit. I apologize for the misunderstood role play. I will stop posting to this thread if my presence disrupts a fun and playful environment.

By role playing I was attempting to take the previous 6-7 pages of what looked like personal attacks and name calling to a playful way to have fun and show a interesting fun and good natured environment.

[mouse of war]

I find it curious that the United States would justify their hostilities against Great Britain on democratic principle, yet attempt to impose the will of the few over the will of the many in regards to political action.  It smacks of tyranny to suggest that the individual must step in line without so much as an expression of dissent at the behest of a self-proclaimed authority.  Most interesting.

 

Yes it is interesting when the democrat's mask slips to reveal the expansionist tyrannical beast beneath

And what do they call it? MANIFEST DESTINY?

Has a state ever come up with a more empty and self-serving excuse for imposition of her will on those of other nations? 

[James T Skoll]

GAY [EU PVP1] is open for business. We're pirates. Butt pirates, that is!

 

Just re-linking this so we can be added to the OP. 

[InfiniteAmount]

The purpose of this tread was politics. What I did via RP was announce our political situation and put forth the reason. If you would not like RP in this tread, even though I've seen it in the past, then I will stop from now on.

What happen is US claim a French player ganked them.

French players in gulf don't feel it was a member of our clans as we only had 6th rate ships at the time

US blockaded ports and chats 6th rate ships across the LA coast with organized squads at frigate strength. Usually 3 or more players in those groups.

I started talking to EDR and other nations including the US and Brits. This was as a result to the 3 days of port blockades and above aggression. It was the plan to peacefully work with the US but that didn't happen.

I sent personal pm to both TF and TDA asking them to stop and why it started

TDA did t know what was happening TF informed us to what occurred.

A very friendly and great negotiation between TF and us began. Long and short was France needed to go. TF couldn't get anyone in the US to agree to letting us stay in any part of modern day USA.

That means we must have conflict. Until a port reset which might happen next soft wipe. Or we reclaim New France and negotiate a peace.

I apologize for what seemed like deceit. I apologize for the misunderstood role play. I will stop posting to this thread if my presence disrupts a fun and playful environment.

By role playing I was attempting to take the previous 6-7 pages of what looked like personal attacks and name calling to a playful way to have fun and show a interesting fun and good natured environment.

Well, that's certainly a creative interpretation of events. To the average US player, the chain of events goes a little differently.

• American players were trading throughout the neutral ports of the Gulf before a few (perhaps as little as one very vocal player) got jumped by a squadron of French players.
• United States leadership let that issue drop (ganking happens) but recognized that a hostile force in French Louisiana was a serious issue.
• A separate group of US players were hunting AI fleets in the Gulf nearby as enemy AI fleets don't spawn near friendly waters. This group did not engage in any PvP activity. They did, at times, accidentally drag French players into combat, but promptly left such battles without seriously attacking players, some times even letting French players take potshots at them for their trouble. (Some individual players, as I understand it, were there to PvP, but any organized groups were just fleeting for exp.)
• During this time, the US engaged with port battles and OW PvP battles with Spain, with whom we were legitimately at war.
• Last week, US leadership was contacted by SLMFr about negotiating some sort of agreement regarding French Louisiana. I was not privy to those negotiations, so I cannot and will not comment on their contents. But I know that as a sibling organization of SLRN (which declared war on the United States on the very first day of Early Access), TF leaders were extremely hesitant to trust SLMFr. TDA leaders may not have shared that same distrust, but as far as I know they did not voice it to TF leadership. In addition, US leadership had already been lied to by a large Spanish organization in an extremely similar way (which in turn led to war with Spain).
• In order to facilitate discussion, a forty-eight hour truce was established between the US and France. It was the American understanding that the truce could and would be extended as long as talks continued. It was also the American understanding that the truce was between France and the United States, and had no bearing on the continuing war begin waged against the US by Spain.
• Just prior to the end of the truce, the French attacked San Marcos (a Spanish port)--while the Conquest Flag was in transit, US leadership contacted the Flag bearer stating that the US and France were in peace talks, and that the US considered a French assault on San Marcos as unacceptable interference with the continuing Spanish-American War in violation of the truce, and that continuing such conquest would mean the end of peace talks. The French attacking the port in-eloquently refused.
• Then, almost simultaneously as the attack on San Marcos, you post a letter detailing multiple falsehoods, and insulting rhetoric against the United States which, in its self I have no problem with (I do it all the time!), but you explicitly stated that the United States leadership was not negotiating in good faith, and in combination with the aforementioned events it seems highly perfidious.

We all try to keep it all in good fun but understand how it can be misinterpreted. I personally like to keep most of my role playing in the form of my newspapers (which I try to make sure that they're understood to be not to be taken as exact descriptions of events) and have most of my forum posts apart from my RP persona except in certain RP-centric threads.

[marecek05]

Alright, so for the future we know that no Role Play unless written on an old timey newspaper backround. (Don't take it as an attack, it is not meant in that way, I actually like your roleplay newspaper stuff with the yellow journalism rhetoric).

 

But back to the point at hand.

 

Two offered accounts do not contradict each other. They only offer a view of the same events from the perspective of each nation.

 

In regards to San Marcos incident, I personally find it hard to construct the incident in a way that is a direct violation of a preagreed truce. As far as I know (I admit, I was not personally present due to RL events), San Marcos was a Spanish port and it being an American interest was explicitely declared only after the creation of the assault flag.

 

On this account, I would like to be proven incorrect, since, if correct this then reveals a very strong-arm approach to diplomacy from US, changing and creating rules unilaterally.

Edited February 3, 2016 by marecek05

[GrapeShot]

Certainly are a lot of delicate flowers in this thread.

I speak in no official capacity, only to state my own opinion. I think it is commonsensical that if you hold a weak hand in a region and are facing a power that doesn't much trust your motives, perhaps bluff and threats are not the best course?

And trying to expand at the expense of that other power? Who among the Frenchies thought that was a wise move?

Perhaps you should have layed low in the Gulf to insure Yank support in an area more vital to you.

Edited February 3, 2016 by GrapeShot

[Johny Reb]

Yes it is interesting when the democrat's mask slips to reveal the expansionist tyrannical beast beneath

And what do they call it? MANIFEST DESTINY?

Has a state ever come up with a more empty and self-serving excuse for imposition of her will on those of other nations? 

Similar to "The British Empire"

[Johny Reb]

For all those concerned,

Role play is difficult because it is full of Bravado, propaganda, cultural slights, and language structure we don't use commonly in modern days, along with one sided views. We need to see through the role play and understand it for what it is, acting. If you suspect that someones RP vitriol is bordering on a real life attitude against another then you can simply pm that person and ask. You may find, like in the case of NakorBS, that they are just playing a role and are extremely friendly otherwise.

 

As an example I will use NakorBS. I led the negotiations with him behind the scenes. It was a serious, passionate, defensive, and a tough discussion. Never was he rude or mean. When the discussions broke down and we decided to not make peace he immediately changed his serious tone to one of friendship in conflict.

I've now have talked with three French clans in LA and their major shipbuilder in the area. All have responded the same way. Tough in the face of pending war, and really friendly once the decision for war was made. And that says something for them because they acted that way as the weaker party. They could have responded in anger and frustration knowing that they would begin loosing their ports shortly. They didn't and I respect them for it.

 

 

We're old buddies Chustler.  We should have a beer and talk this British SLRN thing over.

I would love to be a part of this beer summit.

 

 

I think it's time for a little history lesson in Sealords as a community to get things in perspective.

I have a suggestion but first thanks for explaining the SLVF structure.

 

In my negotiations with NakorBC I spent time researching the SLVF to see if I could verify anything that he was telling me. I read your forums. I found nothing to either confirm or deny what he was saying. The breakdown in discussion was in part due to trust. NakorBC claimed only a NAP with SLRN but SLRN listed them as one of the alliance members and we had already been lied to and in all honestly treated quite rudely by another one of SLRN's partners. So I went to your forums to see if I could find anything that suggested that your various groups fought against each other from time to time and I could find none of it. (I will say I was impressed with the sense of community there)

 

My suggestion is that you post a thread for those like me that are researching your group and the relationships between its various parts just stating how the groups interact.