Reform of Rules and Ban System

[Nordsvard]

Alright, I hate to bring things out into the public eye, but I suppose there is no other means of expressing this. I said something in chat, and it get's taken as a personal attack? I certainly assure you it was not. It was a joke, maybe a bad one at that, but let's be real here. I'm banned for SEVEN days from all chat? I feel as is a moderator didn't even so much as read the context of the situation, if anything at all.

But that's my situation, now onto the actuality of the problem I see here. I was given no warning, I couldn't even so much as find the rules without digging through the forums for a bit. There isn't even an appeal system. There isn't even something IN GAME to tell me what happend. If I wasn't on the forums to see the post of players banned, I wouldn't have a clue what was going on. I know it's a beta and all, but this is ridiculous. Cutting me off from not only chat, but friends list,  and grouping, for a week? I genuinely don't want to play now. If it was for a day, sure, maybe I'd brush it off and come back a little sore about it, but this is something else. Yes, there should be rules, and yes they are reasonble enough rules. However, they really just aren't as accesible as they should be. And the ban system is definately overtly harsh.

I just want to be clear, I'm not just saying this to get my ban lifted, I'm fine accepting consequnces for my actions, but the system in the way it is now is just not good. I'd really like to know what anyone else has to say about the situation as a whole (not mine), particularly the game moderators. Maybe I'm being irrational, but this is just insulting to someone who has paid money for a product.

 

 

EDIT- I take full resposibilty in my case, I assure you all, this is not a rant post trying to weasel my way out.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Nordsvard

[Kokerpiraat]

I think there should atleast be an appeal option, maybe a section for it on the forum?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Perhaps you should have read the purchase page more carefully?

 

 

 

Code of conduct: All captains will have to accept the certain rules of behavior. We want to build a friendly and respectful community. Because of that defamation, harassing and profanity is not allowed. Captains who do not follow the rules will have their progress reset and privilege to participate in the sea trials withdrawn. Find out more here.

 

There's even a link to the Sea Trials/Forum rules thread on this forum.  Frankly, you could have been totally banned from the game - I'd say 7 days of not being able to use chat is far better than that.

 

The only "Moderator" that can affect your in-game rights is Admin.  You were either directly witnessed by Admin committing rules violations, or you were reported by one or more players using the Report feature in Chat, whereupon Admin reviewed your behavior and found it wanting.

 

I'll agree, as we move towards Early Access, that the rules need to be posted more prominently, however, this is an early Alpha Test, and I don't think it too much to ask that participants in the test treat each other with basic respect and restraint.

 

Edit - As to appeals, I'm assuming you're one of the people listed in Tribunal as having recently received chat bans.  If you'd like to appeal your ban, you may do so by responding to that post with your in-game name, and why you think your sentence was too harsh.  I might recommend an apology as well - heartfelt apologies sometimes can have a positive effect towards reducing a sanction.

 

Edit 2 - I didn't realize the Tribunal Thread was locked. Any appeal or apology may be sent to "Admin" via PM.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby

[Nordsvard]

Yes, this is all true, sure, but it's not my point. This is not about my punishment, but more about the experience of it. I don't particularly care if the ban is lifted, if I see a positive change come out of it, I'll be back whenever it is lifted. This is not the place to discuss it, really, and I'm trying to be impartial.

 

More to the point, the rules are not prominently displayed in the least. Come early access, how many players will there be that never even notice the forum? They have to be clearly stated, as in every other game. They'll be used to that, they won't even think twice about it, which means they will not know the rules. Just as I did. Admittedly,  as a forum member I should know these rules, but that's beside the fact. I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who hasn't a clue about the forum. Received no warning, no message as to what's happened, no indication what so ever as to what I did or when it'll be better (that is if it isn't just a bug and the chat is broken).

 

A simple warning would go a long way in an instance like this.

 

EDIT- And as far as the appeal, thank you for mentioning it. I did consider it, but I didn't want to end up having the admin take it as an insul tto his competance. Not to mention, I genuinely want opinions, just like your's. People who are active on the forum (and assumingly in game). The people it will effect, directly or indirectly.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Nordsvard

[maturin]

There's not much in the way of social infrastructure in the game at this stage. I'm sure once NA goes gold, there will be in-game pop-ups informing players of discipline. But we're still in alpha.

 

When the colonists have just landed in the wilderness, there's martial law for a little while.

[Nordsvard]

There's not much in the way of social infrastructure in the game at this stage. I'm sure once NA goes gold, there will be in-game pop-ups informing players of discipline. But we're still in alpha.

 

When the colonists have just landed in the wilderness, there's martial law for a little while.

 

I can understand that. Like I've said, this isn't really about my own case. I'm just hoping to find some comfort in the fact that it will not always be this way; or even be this way for long.

​Yes, it is in development. That doesn't excuse anything for going unaddressed.

[admin]

Yes, this is all true, sure, but it's not my point. This is not about my punishment, but more about the experience of it. I don't particularly care if the ban is lifted, if I see a positive change come out of it, I'll be back whenever it is lifted. This is not the place to discuss it, really, and I'm trying to be impartial.

 

 

 

Hello Captain

 

Most often the chat ban is caused by these two things

You said something bad several times or you said something very very rude once, especially if this rude statement related to a person sister, mother or brother.

 

Chat ban is not limiting your ability to play - you can still attack NPCs, players or craft or travel. You just cannot talk to others.

If you know what case chat was withdrawn for - you can apologize to that player in tribunal and if it is accepted the ban will be lifted. 

 

Be nice to others is on the purchase page and this is always going to be this way. 

We are all adults (above 18+) and can just guess what is ok or not ok to say to a stranger with a gun in an indian territory during wild west times

There is also a list of acceptable age of sail curses that can be directed to other Captains. 

[z4ys]

1. Respect

2. Ranting and trolling

3. Personal attacks, racism and discrimination are prohibited

5. Profanity/Cursing.

9. Spamming is prohibited.

 

That are rules that every online game has. Why should Naval Action make an exception?

Common sense is the keyword.

[Nordsvard]

1. Respect

2. Ranting and trolling

3. Personal attacks, racism and discrimination are prohibited

5. Profanity/Cursing.

9. Spamming is prohibited.

 

That are rules that every online game has. Why should Naval Action make an exception?

Common sense is the keyword.

All of these rules are reasonably objective, and people will see them differently. I mean, there are some obvious lines, but there is a considerably amount of grey area, that I suppose I reside in. All I'm saying is a warning of some type, be it a shorter ban or a verbal warning, would be seemingly much more effective. I've held interest in this game a lot more than others, but that is mostly based on group battles and game discussions. Cutting every single thing has effectively cut off the game for some one like me. It genuinely not make a difference if the game was locked rather than just chat.

​Basically there are two levels, near as I can tell, a 7-day ban as a warning and a permanent ban afterwards. I have never seen a game so harsh in their penalties. Aside from offense that deeply alter many peoples gameplay (I know, another objective term) I see no reason for such severity.

[admin]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3722-profanity-usage-in-game/

[Nordsvard]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3722-profanity-usage-in-game/

 

Very decent point? I guess. It did give me a bit of a giggle after a quick read.

 

But it does not address the problem I see. This is not an appeal. This is a simply a grave request for a reform, for the future.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3722-profanity-usage-in-game/

 

I also took the liberty of creating an online application you can use if you'd rather not dig through the list:

 

http://wiredstar.com/nainsults/

[admin]

I also took the liberty of creating an online application you can use if you'd rather not dig through the list:

 

http://wiredstar.com/nainsults/

you need to pin it. 

[Chustler]

I personally like that a game is standing up for a bit of human decency for a change. I think it is reasonable to hold people accountable for the things they say to other people, especially if the things they say would get them punched in the nose in real life.

[Arvenski]

...especially if this rude statement related to a person sister, mother or brother.

I guess dads are fair game, then?

[Nordsvard]

I guess dads are fair game, then?

Or extended family. Don't forget them.

[Brogsitter]

I dont no the details, but bans should never been given without a warning in advance. If you want to build something like a "constitutional state" within this private infrastructure, admins and moderators should follow all the rules of this too - otherwise they are just abusing their power. This is gonna happen time by time, but hell - it is not hard to make a macro telling someone: "You are against the rules / code of conduct / EULA / whatsoever. Please stop, otherwise we will have to take actions." It shows respect to the rules you set yourself and even to the person who is violating it, giving him the chance to change his behaviour.

 

Not that hard, aye?

[maturin]

I dont no the details, but bans should never been given without a warning in advance. If you want to build something like a "constitutional state" within this private infrastructure, admins and moderators should follow all the rules of this too - otherwise they are just abusing their power. This is gonna happen time by time, but hell - it is not hard to make a macro telling someone: "You are against the rules / code of conduct / EULA / whatsoever. Please stop, otherwise we will have to take actions." It shows respect to the rules you set yourself and even to the person who is violating it, giving him the chance to change his behaviour.

 

Not that hard, aye?

Because the Consitution and due process guarantee amnesty for all first offenders?

 

7 days not chatting is an extraordinarily lenient punishment. You don't lose anything tangible, and you can still play.

[Brogsitter]

It is a matter of respect mods and admin should show towards their customers. Most offensive situations are the result of missunderstanding each other - so why not giving someone the chance to explain / excuse himself? I dont know the internal procedures of this company, but they should be like everywhere else:

 

1) Warning, if he doesnt stop.....

2) Temp Ban, if he doesnt stop.....

3) Perm Ban

[Johny Reb]

I agree that their could be reform. Its not that the system is so terrible now but a few tweaks could make it better.

 

I think there are two stages.

The first is the testing phase that we are in and will be in for some time. During this stage players should be given more leniency to make mistakes and help the development team refine their codes of conduct. We are likely to have a really large influx of players coming into the game and most of them will never even visit the forums.

 

A good attempt has been made to post the rules and regulations and to add tribunal judgments to the thread but right now it is not an exhaustive list and should be updated. The one that pops to mind is the regulation against port camping starting zones. This one is not listed in the "Forum and Sea Trials Rules" Thread. This was a tribunal judgment from the first weeks of open world. I think it would be best for one of the moderators to comb through the tribunals and add these judgments to the rules thread.

 

Right now, a new rule could be created everyday. That means we are now required to read that thread everyday to make sure we aren't guilty of breaking a rule we had no idea existed. This is one reason for initial leniency.

 

Next, the rules section shows a progressive punishment system but lately it seems like threats of bans are thrown around without any reference to the punishment system listed in point 17 or without going through the progressive steps of punishment listed. It gives the impression that all violations are equal and the steps will likely be bypassed giving the steps little meaning and confusing the player base. There also seems to be different punishment levels depending on if the offense is, forum related, language related, behavior toward devs, exploit behavior, or abuse of otherwise normal game mechanics. That is simply confusing to players.

 

My suggestion is that in the testing phase:

1. The progression system for punishment in point 17 should be strictly adhered to. This will promote a stable understanding of the rules, build respect for those administering the system, and create a less confusing behavior culture that the players can assist in promoting.

2. Players discovering "exploits" or behaviors built into the mechanics of the game should not be punished at all until a judgment is made on the activity. Once the judgment is made publicly and added to the rules thread then a repeat of the behavior should be punished using the point 17 progressive system. It is reasonable to me to require that a player report an exploit in order to get a pass on punishment.

    Doing this will treat the players like the testers they are. They have helped the devs to uncover behavoirs and exploits that allow them to refine their rules, even if they did it in a negative way.

 

The second phase is simple. This phase would represent the release of the "final" product. By then the rules of behavior will have mostly be flushed out. The rules will be presented clearly in game. The community will be very aware of these rules and will be there to help new players understand them better.

 

At this point the Progressive punishment system can be reformed and be stricter in its adherence with less steps toward the ultimate punishments. Clarity gives cause for less forgiveness.

[Nordsvard]

Johnny, I would very much agree, to a point at least. You've proposed what I see as a very effective system, however rules that have long been inplace should give less leniency. No one needs more than one warning on any offense, if they ignore the warning they are clearly in knowing violation of the rule, and an appeal system should take care of any possible slip-throughs. The only instance I can see an instant ban without warning is in the case of destructive gameplay, such as hacking. Even exploits should not be as harshly punished, as it is a bit subjective.

 

Part of establishing a healthy community in this game is not only strict (in follow through, not punishment), but in a fair and well moderated system.

 

And anyone who models an infrastructure after the current US legal system is an idiot. It's good in theory, but horribly played out in reality. I feel the current tribunal system is reasonably effective, when not too quick to jump the gun. If this is a problem on not being properly staffed, I'm sure there is a list of well-established members who would be willing to step up.

[Nordsvard]

Because the Consitution and due process guarantee amnesty for all first offenders?

 

7 days not chatting is an extraordinarily lenient punishment. You don't lose anything tangible, and you can still play.

 

I'm getting tired of this excuse. It's like saying cutting off someone's hand for stealing is fine, because they can still use the other hand.

​Yes, the hand doesn't grow back and it's only a 7 day ban, but basically I've lost a large portion of the functionality of the game. Of which I paid for. I'd consider that a tangible loss and much as you can consider anything in game. Is it a awfully harsh punishment? Not exactly, just an awfully harsh warning.

[Jacob van Heemskerck]

In mine opinion this is very easy to avoid, just treat the interweb people like you treat people in your daily life (with respect) and you don't have to be worried getting banned.

And be a sportive loser and polite winner.

P.s

I don't know what you said in chat wich you get a chat ban for, but i am sure the admin did not do it for nothing, and a 7 day chat ban for abusing the chat seems very appropiate to me especially when you get offerd to make your excuse to other player and removing your ban!

Something that hasn't be suggested bij the admin in first place, but as own initiative of yourself!

Edited January 11, 2016 by Jacob van Heemskerck

[Nordsvard]

personally i'm glad that the rules/punishments are so strict

 

i'm sick and tired of clowns thinking that global chat is their own stage for off color comments and 'humor' that usually borders, if not crosses, the boundaries of racism,sexism, homophobia etc

 

if you are wanting to display these skills of humor, do so in clan, group, private chat or on your own teamspeak server - i'm not against folks telling jokes on all kinds of 'taboo' topics, but global chat is NOT the place for this

 

 

HUGE thumbs up to the admin team for having the balls to not allow the global chat in their game become the same old sh*t hole that global chat in other mmo's becomes!

 

I'm not saying they should be less strict per say, more of a simple warning system. Strictness is all fine, but not everyone has the same idea of what's ok to say and not, particularly in the moment.

 

In mine opinion this is very easy to avoid, just treat the interweb people like you treat people in your daily life (with respect) and you don't have to be worried getting banned.

And be sportive loser and polite winner.

P.s

I don't know what you said in chat wich you get a chat ban for, but i am sure the admin did not do it for nothing, and a 7 day chat ban for abusing the chat seems very appropiate to me especially when you get offerd to make your excuse to other player and removing your ban!

Something that hasn't be suggested bij the admin in first place, but as own initiative of yourself!

 

All I'll say in regard to my situation is that I've never said anything I wouldn't say in real life. Nothing was said in anger, or spite, or any sort of malice. I made a joke in nation chat that someone took wrong. I'm not sorry for saying it, only sorry he took offense. Therefore I'm not going to give him an insincere apology, I'd rather take the punishment the admin thought best.

 

All I'm trying to say though, is not everyone is smart, or overtly careful about peoples thoughts. That doesn't make them some horrible malicious person though. I'm sure a warning would cut down a lot of second offenses.

 

EDIT- I suppose if you very much want to know the particulars of the story, PM me. No reason to put it out publically.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nordsvard

[Johny Reb]

Johnny, I would very much agree, to a point at least. You've proposed what I see as a very effective system, however rules that have long been inplace should give less leniency. No one needs more than one warning on any offense, if they ignore the warning they are clearly in knowing violation of the rule, and an appeal system should take care of any possible slip-throughs. The only instance I can see an instant ban without warning is in the case of destructive gameplay, such as hacking. Even exploits should not be as harshly punished, as it is a bit subjective.

 

Part of establishing a healthy community in this game is not only strict (in follow through, not punishment), but in a fair and well moderated system.

 

And anyone who models an infrastructure after the current US legal system is an idiot. It's good in theory, but horribly played out in reality. I feel the current tribunal system is reasonably effective, when not too quick to jump the gun. If this is a problem on not being properly staffed, I'm sure there is a list of well-established members who would be willing to step up.

Thats a reasonable critique.

 

I see our testing responsibilities as going much farther than finding bugs. There is so much more to the game that underlies the game mechanics and that ultimately effects how gamers world wide will view this title. Here is a list but not exhaustive on what I think we are actually testing...

1. mechanics of the game

2. Search for bugs

3. Search for exploits/hacks

4. Community staff communication and relationships

5. Forum protocol and ruleset

6. In game "moral code" and behavior ruleset

7. How best to promote an "Age of Honor" along side the "Age of Sail"

8. Punishment system for forums

9. Punishment system for game.

 

On point 9 I have argued for leniency. What we attempt to find is the level at which the punishment actually effects behavioral change. The goal for a company that is trying to make money, imo, is not to remove its customer base. A progressive punishment system helps to dial in the punishment that has the greatest effect without driving the customer away unless absolutely necessary to do so.

 

A European country not long ago was struggling with debt. While looking for ways to cut spending they evaluated their unemployment benefits which lasted for 5 years. They saw that at about 4 1/2 years most people on unemployment found jobs so they lowered the unemployment benefits to 4 years. They then saw that at 3 1/2 years most people on unemployment found a job so they dropped the length of benefits again with the same result.

 

The point of this story is experiment. By having a 5 step process and adhering to it strictly then the devs can measure the rate at which these punishments become effective. Maybe 30% of people chat banned for a day never do it again but 85% of people chat banned for 7 days never do it again. But what if the 3 day ban saw no significant increase than the 1 day ban group. The devs can see that the three day step is useless and refine the progressive punishment system to a 4 step process instead of 5.

 

So by following the system, as is, strictly, we actually test the effectiveness. Of course by passing the system and jumping to perma bans or threats of perma bans is another way of testing the system but we can already see the results of that. It divides the community, upsets a lot of people, effects morale of the player base and effects the cooperation between the players and the staff. I would say overall a negative result and is one of the main reasons I suggested a strict adherence to the progressive system.

 

Its not as fun to test a punishment system but its important in my opinion. Bans on players that broke a rule (not the ones that are toxic repeat offenders) effect morale. Done to harshly or to often and you will develop a player base that stays in line but absolutely hates the developers. This game began with a very good relationship with the Admin and the Development team and I don't want to see that change.