Reform of Rules and Ban System

[Nordsvard]

doesn't need to be a warning system - warning system is in the terms of use

 

bottom line is i am sure you are going to be very careful as to what you say in global in tyhe future, and so in my opinion the system works exactly as it should

 

i myself tell many jokes that would be considered 'off-color' - i don't do so in global - again - global isn't a forum for wannabe stand up comebdians - especially since we all know that what can be said in fun and humor doesn't always translate into the written word in a multi-cultural chat room 

 

i am not saying you are a horrible person - i am pretty sure that over my years i have told (and still tell) many a joke that would not only get me a 7-day ban, but banned from the game - you sir are missing the point that global chat isn't the place for it - again - save it for clan, group, private chat in game, or your own teamspeak out of game

 

people always try and push the boundaries of what is allowed (i know i do myself) - congratulations on discovering that boundary in regards to global chat

I'm not at all saying it is a place for such. More so just that a warning would have been equally as effective, without any negative reprecussions such as losing players. No one should feel alienated for a small mistake they may not have know in the moment. A pubically listed 7-day ban from every social aspect of the game is a bit alienating, in my opinion. Saying the warning system is the terms of use is not in the least bit right. The rules are not in the least bit prominately displayed, and even less so for the early access player (unless there is change). Not to mention there is a grey area on what is considered ok to say. I'm not trying to push any boundaries, I'm just being myself. There has to be a balance between where people are protected from abuse, and people are protected from the weaker-skinned here. I haven't learned what not to say, more so just not to say. All chat should be a healthy community, rather than a mindless place to get information and invites, but if that's the role of Nation and Global chat, I suppose I'm mistaken.

There are things we all know we absolutely can not do, and things most people acknowledge we shouldn't do. It's the grey areas that lead to problems and miscommunications. My point is that with the rule system in place, it's harming the community more than necesary. There are many less warnings than a total chat ban. A verbal warning, or channel ban (still don't know about 7 days though) would have been equally as effective.

[Nordsvard]

Like I've said, I'm not asking for much here, and I'm not the only one. No one should have to deal with insults beyond reason, but there are limits. We all are here to have fun, and we all (for the most part) adults. No one wants to come on and be insulted, and no one wants to come on and have to be censored. In an ideal world, everyone would be on the same page, and there would be no one meaning harm, and everyone would get along swimmingly, but that's not the world we live in, and you can not expect that out of anything involving the human race.

 

However, I'm not trying to suggest a reform of the rules themselves, simply how they are presented and upheld. If you want a well regulated system, that's awesome and I'm all for it; but you need people willing to take time to fully evaluate the situation. In an ideal situation, I can easily see a designated moderator even trying to talk to all parties at hand without any need for anyone to come away feeling wronged (for first time offenses, that is, after that, well, they're sort of being troublesome). It's not about needing admin resources elsewhere. If this is important to the game community, it should be given it's due amount of effort. The way I see the communities opinion on the "personality" of the game is that it's more for the sophisticated adult who doesn't want to deal with the usual MMO crap, and just wants to relax and play this advanced, historical simulator. Which is just a delightful idea. Wouldn't have it any other way. Except that constantly having to make sure no one is offended is taking me out of it a bit, as I would imagine being offended by something would. People need to learn to shut up, and yes, I'm aware I have a problem with this. However, shutting up isn't just about not offending, but sometimes keeping your offenses to yourself. If you just can't deal with that, take the next step. I feel as if a number of blocks should rightfully show if someone needs to do some more shutting up. You know, such as x number of blocks equals a warning/evaluation.

​Anyways, before I go off onto that tangent further, my point is this: if you are extremely tight with the rules, without being thorough and justly fair, you're going to lose people. Particularly the people you're going to get with early access and beyond. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks so, and maybe I'll be proven wrong come EA, and I'll gladly step aside then,  but until then I believe very strongly in this, partly because I just love this game so much.

 

This is a wonderful game and a fantastic community (which is a big plus for me, at least), and I'd just hate to see either one not fully develop, or worse, die of all together.

[Nordsvard]

the only thing it is taking you out of is questionable humor in global chat - no one is impinging upon your right to enjoy the game, or to express your sense of humor in clan, group or private chat, or on your teamspeak

 

the rules are there - i agree they need to be more visible and hopefully that becomes the case

 

beyond that, either the individual gets it or doesn't get it, and further discussion becomes pointless for the reasons i have stated in previous posts in this thread

It's not solely about my instance. I doubt I will be the last to experience this.

As far as my rights, well, that's something else. Why should global or nation chat be any different than any in game communication? It's just as easy to avoid being insulted. Remove yourself from the situation.

 

Now that I've said every bit of this in every way I can think, I guess that's that. You'll either see it as a problem or not. Only reason I've been responding is some people seem closed off to the idea (not counting you among them, Recluse, you're different (not sure in a good or bad way, honestly, but at least you aren't closed off.) My goal here wasn't an argument or an appeal to my own problem, just trying to see if people saw the problems I did. I guess mostly not.

In summary of what I've read; most everyone can agree the rues definately need to be more prominant, and likely in game.

EDIT- I'd love to see a pole on this, honestly, I think we've had enough discussion.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Nordsvard

[Nordsvard]

...why should civil folks have to remove themselves from uncivil world chat? (NOT saying you were uncivil, just expounding on your comment) - why not have a civil world chat channel?

 

one solution i can think of is to have two world chat tabs - one which is moderated and has the strict rules that are currently in place, and the other where folks don't have to watch their P's & Q's - up to each individual player as to which environment they want to chat in - end of issue perhaps?

 

I suggest the two chat tab system because my own experience since 1998 in PvP sandbox mmo's is that for some (many?) players, letting loose in global, sharing off-color comments etc seems to be their thing and that would satisfy that need?

 

it could also be divisive with folks seeing them as 'hardcore'and 'carebear' channels?

 

just my thoughts

1- I'm not saying they remove themselves from chat, just simply block the offender.

 

2- That sounds reasonably, if not chaotic. I was thinking on a chat division myself for a while, but not sure. Another option would be an optional filter. I definately like the idea of allowing people their choice, I just can't think of a good way,  unfortunately. What with Global, Nation, Crew, etc chat all open at the same time PLUS a division of at Nation and Global chats (because some may want to use both, so they don't miss out on anything)... It sounds messy.

[Nordsvard]

Alright, I have the poll up, I'd apreciate it if any further comments would be related to the poll exclusively.

[Horatio Cornblower]

I personally when in chat with other players will base my speech on my character from that period, Sure I have insulted other players but by way of period specific speech, nothing personal,racist,offensive and so on and each time both parties have had a laugh and hugged it out, I am glad to see Devs/Mods smashing trolls and just outright vulgar people with there hammer but one would also expect people to moderate themselves to an extent, This is the kind of game where you may say something in the heat of the moment that a well placed apology may fix, Where as serial trollers and abusive players should be held accountable for there actions and I don't think allowing people free reign over a chat room to say what they wish is an option, We have all seen a chat room infested with the most vulgar chat possible so It isn't an option.

[Justme]

How well will the chat ban system hold in place for rude comments once EA opens up. People will be themselves after all, good or bad. It's one thing in a closed testing environment another in a paid for open game.

[Macjimm]

Serious points submitted respectfully:

Question:

RE: Sea Trials/Forum rules thread - was "Sea Trials" not the initial combat that NA provided in the battle ring, and we are currently using "Open World" (referred to as OW or OP)? And if we are using "Open World" now verses "Sea Trials" then would it be wise to change the title of the thread to avoid confusion?

Comment:

I think that with the current structure of our warning and suspension policy makes provision for players that honestly don't know better. When I started playing NA I had no idea about concepts like ganking, griefing, damage farming and exploits and game breaking bugs. I've managed to avoid suspensions or bans and think I may understand a lot of what would initiate a suspension or ban. Having the rules posted in a very conspicuous location would be helpful but the system in place should serve to educate players that honestly don't understand.

Politics-Rules-Common sense. Sometimes a player may express an opinion about the game that is not well received by others. Example: Kiting or Fleeing, While some players may consider this offensive and cheating but it is not against the rules. To flee from a fight in game or state that you would prefer to avoid a battle rather than be destroyed should not be a reason for suspension. It would be very helpful to see a list of what is prohibited by the rules. Anything that is not covered in the list might be politically incorrect or offensive but is acceptable. The trouble with imposing common sense on everyone is that assumes that we are all born knowing the same thing and intuitively understand what is not clearly described.

I have no idea what do about players who intend to "play ignorant" and break the rules. I'm not sure if the structure is effective for them. My personal experience is good and I have no issues with fellow players on the forums or in game. I suspect it is working. Personally I would like to see than anyone who deliberately and knowingly breaks the NA rules is permanently banned immediately. I don't think it is helpful to allow players an opportunity to work the system and be allowed a number of free offenses with very little consequence.

I'm only offering this feedback as an explanation to the question. Do you believe the current warning system described in the rules is effective? No offence is intended or implied.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Macjimm

[Horatio Cornblower]

The issue I see with that is how do you separate Deliberate/Knowingly with accidental or spur of the moment? To do that would require a solid witness(taking into account that people lie), The full context and trawling through endless chat to get the full picture, In a perfect game people would moderate themselves and show some level of maturity but we will always see the angry kid who used daddies credit card and computer to play the game and then rages when he is sunk, Its one of the reasons I don't play consoles any more  , But seriously though its always going to be an issue no matter what you impose, The best we can expect is a speedy resolution and swift punishment which is so far what I have seen while playing this game, Though I have a simple idea that may fit this game, Why not simply demote players dependant on the offence? because If you can't act like a Gentleman then a Gentleman you shall not be!

Edited January 11, 2016 by Horatio Cornblower

[Nordsvard]

I'm not sure on the demotion idea... It seems a bit wrong, but I can't quite put a finger to how exactly.

 

​As far as picking things out for context and what not, that's not terribly hard with chat logs. Yes, ideally everyone would self moderate, but that will never happen. People have different thoughts, and until our hive mind kicks in we won't ever really be on the same page as everyone. Thusly, we have moderators. Their sole purpose is to uphold the ideal of what the rules want.  If someone is off a bit, nudge them back, if they ignore that, nudge them a bit harder.

[Voi_Ta]

To bo honest I don't know that there are any rules. Never came across them. (I behave like normal human and it worked in all games i played so far.)

[Nordsvard]

To bo honest I don't know that there are any rules. Never came across them. (I behave like normal human and it worked in all games i played so far.)

 

You Sir, are exactly who I mean! I deeply fear with EA coming you will be far from alone on that front.

 

​Surely if there is nothing done about it, the responsibility falls unto the players at least. I try and send all the new players I meet to the forums to look at the rules (not one of them knew they were there, I might add).

[Vain]

Duel to defend ones honor?  As in Mr Midshipman Hornblower?  

 

Lets be RP about this.

 

In all seriousness, a duel mechanic would be AWESOME.

[Aetrion]

I don't like any system where people get banned or silenced because someone felt offended. There are just too many people who are offended at everything and wield it as a weapon to get their way.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I don't like any system where people get banned or silenced because someone felt offended. There are just too many people who are offended at everything and wield it as a weapon to get their way.

 

You don't get sanctioned because someone felt offended.  You get sanctioned for not behaving like a respectful person towards your fellow players, where respectful is defined by the rules and judged by the Developers and Moderation staff.

 

If people find it too hard to be respectful to others, they're in the wrong game and the wrong time period.  Your argument has no foundation.

[Justme]

 

If people find it too hard to be respectful to others, they're in the wrong game and the wrong time period.  Your argument has no foundation.

What defines respect? Keep in mind this a worldwide player base and what is acceptable in one culture may be taboo in another. Especially when compared to romatized versions of behavior from centuries past.

[Francis Tabernac]

What defines respect? Keep in mind this a worldwide player base and what is acceptable in one culture may be taboo in another. Especially when compared to romatized versions of behavior from centuries past.

 

It shouldn't be difficult to figure out what they mean, and this just comes across as trying to justify being a prick. Here, let's keep it simple: if you don't know the person, don't say something potentially rude/insulting to them. "But in some cultures X isn't rude!" But in others X is rude, and if you know that you may be temporarily banned, is it really worth taking the chance? I'm speaking generally here, not to Justme specifically: What do you gain from being rude? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Does it make you feel enough better about yourself to be worth risking a temporary chat ban? If the answer is no then just move on; if it's yes then take your chances, I guess.

 

Defenses like "some cultures don't think "I banged your mom!" is mean" or "this is the internet, get used to it" and the like hold no water as arguments; they're just poor justifications for insulting somebody. I'm glad this game is trying to keep the community at least relatively civil. It's the game that attracts players, but it's the community that keeps them, and a toxic community isn't going to keep many players around for long, or at least not the sort that you'd want to be around. Besides, we're here to test the game right now, remember? If you're taking your pretend achievements with your pretend internet boats so seriously that you need to insult and offend other players then you're doing it wrong, and perhaps you need to grow up.