On Premium Ships and "Pay to Win"

[Jeremiah O'Brien]

A fee or "tax" should be on something that if people do "less" of it - it is OK. So a tax on teleporting might dampen the teleporting a bit - but who cares?

I really like this idea of implementing taxes. Use it for things that don't give an "advantage," per se, and aren't necessary to play. It would work much better than subscriptions and the choice to pay is entirely up to the player; if they can't/don't want to pay, they don't have to, but if they don't mind spending a few bucks here and there, then they can.

[Toni]

I wouldn't mind a subscription. I cant stand Free to play models. They always turn to crap.

 

Like Hero's and Generals .. they want to force you to buy equipment because the grind takes forever just to get basic equipment. You spend more money in the short term, but save a few bucks a year or two down the road. I cant stand that massive grinds. However, even if you sub, their grind is outrageous still.

 

So, they could go with a free to play model with a sub model. You can play for free, have a massive grind, you can sub, have a lot less grind, or you can buy a ship, and have a lot less grind, or sub and buy the ship and have hardly no grind.

 

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Give the player a choice about what they want to do.

 

Path of Exile is free 2 play (and is not pay 2 win) and still hasn't turned out crap.

[Mass]

I only want a gotheborg as premium and i would be happy

[Flip]

There are a few ways to do it. They range anywhere from full subscription only to sub + f2p to f2p only with perks to pay once + extras.

I'll outline the pros and cons of both of these systems from my viewpoint having played most of them.

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Type 1: Subscription only.

Example game: WoW

Pros: continued game development as long as people play, no "extra grind" feeling, everyone is on the same level.

Cons: expensive!

Thoughts: It is easily the best system when it comes to game health and development as well as keeping added grind for the free to play crowd out (this will be explained later in the free to play example). The downside is cost, the counterbalance to the cost issue is that the devs (assuming good population) can provide enough content to make the game your only game. WoW is like this for a lot of people, yes they have to sub but in their minds they play enough and there is enough content to make it worth it.

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Type 2: Free to play (with or without cash shops etc)

Example: wot, war thunder, league of legends, many old mmos that have switched.

Pros: free to play, no commitment, the ability to buy progression/perks.

Cons: fake grind, basically the company makes unlocking tanks or leveling up or whatever it is take longer than if you had bought the entire game to tempt people to use real money to unlock stuff. Examples are mechs in mechs warrior online, guns and other stuff in planet side, tanks in war thunder, boosting research in war thunder. I like to use league of legends as an example as the grind for the expensive champions is huge as well as the grind to level 30, UNLESS you buy boosts or just buy them for a ridiculous cost per champion .

Thoughts: I hate this model, the grind is ridiculous after the first few unlocks making a trip to the cash shop a requirement if you don't have a lot of time but love the game. I also feel companies get away from the responsibility of adding content because they are "free to play" and instead spend all their time making new camos, guns, cosmetics etc and refrain from making real content (compare planet side or war thunder to WoW in terms of new content/expansions.)

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Type 3 - Pay once, play forever.

Examples: Natural Selection 2, single player games, guild wars 2.

Pros: no sub, but also no free to play grind or issues, usually.

Cons: the inevitable drift to in game shops and paid content expansions of little content compared to sub model expansions. They need to keep afloat somehow, servers don't pay for themselves and staff are not volunteers but they don't have the steady income of a sub so they need to carefully farm the population without becoming overly intrusive for money.

Thoughts: my favourite example is natural selection 2, it was 20$, but was the kind of game that launched broken and needed a lot of work and a lot of new maps/content to keep it fun. Sadly the devs ran out of money and basically abandoned the game after some fundraising and other attempts to make more money for development. The game passed on to a community dev team and now lays in obscurity. Doesn't really work well if you need to release content regularly unless you put in a cash shop of doom and sell more than just cosmetics.

Guild Wars 2: where to start? The model is good, at first glance. Pay once, play forever! Until you notice the cash shop in game that sells everything from cosmetics (ok) to in game currency (not so ok ). It makes the point that even a game like that has to resort to selling currency, thank god there is no real economy in that game so inflation doesn't matter, but imagine doing that in naval action. Before you say eve does it, no it does not, money leaves the system in that game instead of constantly being added. You also see less content releases in guild wars 2 then usual, and when I say content I mean meaningful content and not some dumb event in lions arch where you run around collecting candy for 8hrs to buy a mask.

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Tldr Many many games have tried to survive on only a cosmetic shop but none ever have for long. Inevitably you see paid additions or loot crates or something come into play. Premium this or special access that, it's always the same issue.

The problem is that most games (mmos) shy away from the subscription model because they know it means that a) you need to have a solid game, none of this crap like archage. you better have content plans for the next year or two, and you better be able to deliver it.

This makes going 'f2p' or pay once the easy way out as you don't have to make any lasting commitment to the game or ensure that new content comes out regularly or even ensure that you have enough content to keep your players coming back month after month. But you get all the upside of initial sales and you get to farm the community for cosmetics and premium stuff because you are 'f2p' or whatever, aka lazy and not committed. Who needs new raids or tanks or guns or maps or skills or whatever when you can buy hats and camos and skins and particle effects on your sword!

[Jack Freedom]

The game could always take the Guild Wars 2 route. Basically players pay for the game and then for every expansion.

 

But in addition to that there are micro transactions for cosmetics in-game.

 

"Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time." -Mike O'Brien

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/

 

 

In short, for naval action we could be seeing XP boosters, Premium ships, boats n hoes, Paint jobs and items for your Captains quarters, ship insurance like in Eve online. Maybe if we get a 3D avatar we may get to customize him/her.

 

This is all fair since it's mostly cosmetic but the premium ships would require a really delicate balance.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Jack Freedom

[Ishigami]

As long as everything you can buy for real money is also earnable in the game either thru gameplay or buyable for in-game currency I see no reason for concern provided that price or time requirements are within reasonable boundaries.

 

Not to mention it is already confirmed that the premium ships will not have the best statistics as high quality crafted ships will be better.

 

Quite frankly I have no intention on taking part in the economy or PvP at large in Naval Action.

I would like to play casually mostly against AI.

The premium ships offer me a way to do that by cutting down the time required to play in order to achieve a certain progress.

Depending on the price of the premium ships I probably have more money than time for this game.

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

I am sure i read somewhere that yes there WILL be Premium Ships to buy,but they wont be any better than ones already in the game or crafted when the OW is up and running.In fact they may well be inferior to them.So i dont see the "pay to Win" thing being much of an issue.

[Jack Freedom]

I am sure i read somewhere that yes there WILL be Premium Ships to buy,but they wont be any better than ones already in the game or crafted when the OW is up and running.In fact they may well be inferior to them.So i dont see the "pay to Win" thing being much of an issue.

 

When you paid for this game there was a ship listed that will be included with your purchase. The ships costs $20 US

[Similon]

I'm fairly certain they've already stated the payment model as Buy the game outright, with a premium store.

 

i.e. you spend £25 on the game and it's yours to play for ever. Then, if you like, you can purchase premium ships and cosmetics (or whatever they decide to sell). No subscriptions, no F2P.

 

As for how to do premium content? I like the shortcut idea, so instead of spending 10 hours farming and grinding away, you just throw $20 at them. As well as Unique things (like our yachts). Ideally, they'll never be superior to what base players have. Perhaps side-grades, but since this game is going for realistic portrayal over balancing, Just don't make the top ships in any class premium exclusive.

 

Personally, I will almost definitely be spending a lot of money on this game. 

[DazednConfused]

how about having an experience cap for the premium ships? i remember the devs stating that there will be in game ranks, and that if for example you are not an admiral you wouldn't be able to man a first rate.

 

so you would not be able to purchase a premium 3rd rate unless you are say, a senior captain in your particular nation. this would stem the flow of people bypassing the core playerbase causing rage etc.

 

i think having to EARN premium ships is a good way of making sure we dont wreck gameplay.

 

my 2c

 

Dazed 

[relic]

The closest thing to pay to win I've seen in gaming is WOT's gold ammo and that's not even that huge a bonus and yet they have plenty of people ready to play the game.

How is "gold" (premium) ammo even close to p2w when it can be bought with credits as well as gold?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Mr. Confused, so far, we know that you will be limited to ships that you can crew effectively at your rank. Admin has stated that you can buy a First Rate as a Midshipman, but you'll only be able to staff it with a small crew which will make it unmanageable. I don't thi we need further limits on Premium Ships than that. The second thing we know is that Admin wants to make sure that if you buy a Premium Ship, it is immediately available to sail (though I assume not necessarily crew). This prevents buyers remorse when you buy something and then can't sail it until you build it.

[Joe]

How is "gold" (premium) ammo even close to p2w when it can be bought with credits as well as gold?

I used a ton of gold ammo myself and I was struggling to think of a game where anything was "pay to win" that I have actual expierence with and that was all I could come up with...I spent a ton of cash n upgraded crews, upgraded parts and gold ammo on my tanks. Just as with Wardunder I spent a ton on 100% crews, premium planes and upgraded planes.

It was as close as I could think of a pay to win situation.

[DazednConfused]

Henry

 

Im happy with that - if people buy large premium ships too early, then they will be severely undermanned and inevitably be fodder for experienced players.

 

As long as the premium ships are released at the same rate as general progress then there will be no problems.

 

My concerns are mainly that large premium ships may be introduced too early to the game and will give people who are willing to pay an early advantage over those who choose to grind. This will be mitigated over time due to those same grinders creating high quality ships, but how long will that take?   

 

As long as the underlined is in force i will be content. 

[Balsafer]

Why are we talking about this even? Devs stated that the game will be by and play free forever with micro-transactions and premium ships that are not any different than regular ships stat wise but aid in shortening the grind.  Its been said by the devs a few times it has been mentioned in this post a few times.   I'am fine with how the Devs planned it as of now as long as they stick too it.  No need to debate it or come up with some other way for them to make money they already decided how they are going to make their money.

 

 

P.S. one thing they could add if they havent is the option just to donate money also to help keep the game going.

[Jeremiah O'Brien]

Why are we talking about this even? Devs stated that the game will be by and play free forever with micro-transactions and premium ships that are not any different than regular ships stat wise but aid in shortening the grind.  Its been said by the devs a few times it has been mentioned in this post a few times.   I'am fine with how the Devs planned it as of now as long as they stick too it.  No need to debate it or come up with some other way for them to make money they already decided how they are going to make their money.

 

 

P.S. one thing they could add if they havent is the option just to donate money also to help keep the game going.

Exactly. This isn't up for debate, it's been decided. You cannot sell a game and then tell the buyers, "We're changing the price system, from now on you need to pay."

There is no debate.

[AKPyrate]

Guild Wars 2: where to start? The model is good, at first glance. Pay once, play forever! Until you notice the cash shop in game that sells everything from cosmetics (ok) to in game currency (not so ok ). It makes the point that even a game like that has to resort to selling currency, thank god there is no real economy in that game so inflation doesn't matter, but imagine doing that in naval action. Before you say eve does it, no it does not, money leaves the system in that game instead of constantly being added. You also see less content releases in guild wars 2 then usual, and when I say content I mean meaningful content and not some dumb event in lions arch where you run around collecting candy for 8hrs to buy a mask.

 

From what I've read, there are plenty of ways for money to 'leave the system' in this game.  Maintenance costs for ships (based on in-game sailing time-devs already said that people won't be punished for not playing and coming back to a wrecked ship), repairing battle damage, training crews (possibly a maintenance cost to keep their cannon accuracy and speed up or the likes), and possibly in-game currency taxes for setting up guilds/companies.  There are plenty of ways that currency could 'disappear'.

 

That said, the devs have stated that it will never be pay-to-play.  Letting someone pay to have a custom paint scheme (within certain parameters) isn't a big deal.  Paying to skip some of the grind (which I find to be an enjoyable part of the game, but that's just me) won't affect their skill in combat when you meet them on the high seas.

[Magnum]

Exactly. This isn't up for debate, it's been decided. You cannot sell a game and then tell the buyers, "We're changing the price system, from now on you need to pay."

There is no debate.

 

Yea, we are all just trying to get our post count up! Hope we don't get busted for post count farming

[Jeremiah O'Brien]

Yea, we are all just trying to get our post count up! Hope we don't get busted for post count farming

I see.. Really shady stuff going on

Of course, I wouldn't be involved in any way..

Neither would this post..

[Magnum]

Why are we talking about this even? Devs stated that the game will be by and play free forever with micro-transactions and premium ships that are not any different than regular ships stat wise but aid in shortening the grind.  Its been said by the devs a few times it has been mentioned in this post a few times.   I'am fine with how the Devs planned it as of now as long as they stick too it.  No need to debate it or come up with some other way for them to make money they already decided how they are going to make their money.

 

 

P.S. one thing they could add if they havent is the option just to donate money also to help keep the game going.

 

And BTW, if you think it's so senseless to post here - why did you?

[Magnum]

[Magnum]

Yea, we are all just trying to get our post count up! Hope we don't get busted for post count farming

 

Just kidding

 

 

Exactly. This isn't up for debate, it's been decided. You cannot sell a game and then tell the buyers, "We're changing the price system, from now on you need to pay."

There is no debate.

 

Well, actually all they sold to you and I is the right to participate in the testing of the game mechanics they come out with. The "GAME" is not finished or for sale yet!

 

And it certainly is legit to discuss ways the dev's can fund further development - AS THE DEVELOPMENT IS BEING DONE!

 

If you think Open World is all done and finished - just move along - nothing to talk about here.....

[Purple]

 

 

P.S. one thing they could add if they havent is the option just to donate money also to help keep the game going.

I dont think they have cash flow issues. if they did they could just open the game up to people again. why on earth would you just donate to a business. i never go into a target and just hand them $20 and walk out with nothing.

[admin]

Subs are a hassle honestly. The game should be available whenever you feel like playing. 

[Jupe]

I could buy a premium ship if it was on par with regular ones. If it is weaker than built ship, what is the point of the ship then? Still it should not be stronger than same class regular ships..

Some think it's pay to win when you can buy something which you can have fun with a bit faster.