Ramming - why so serious?

[Crankey]

More than 1 thread about this including one of my own.

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3489-ramming-ruination/?hl=ramming

 

Basically there is no current cost to you the player to keep your ship afloat, a simple system is going to be introduced into the test game soon that will have a cost associated. This may put off some players from ramming on purpose as the extra damage etc will 'cost' you 'X' (I don't believe the devs have given us details yet)

 

Where-as if your ship survives the battle or scores more points staying afloat and firing at the enemy for longer than you would have stayed afloat after ramming, perhaps the cost will be offset by greater damaged caused.

 

There will always be ramming accidents happening, this is a real danger to friendly and enemy ships alike and should be in the game. ramming someone on purpose should also be in the game, but the effects on the ships and cost in game terms should also be balanced and realistic.

 

eg. I sail my Lunx at 10 knots into the side of a SOL. I stove a few of his planks in, however the entire font of my vessel is now a splintered wreck, in fact the first 10 feet of deck and bowsprit appears to be matchwood. the crew have already jumped over the side and I realise that the ships cat has beaten me to the last place in the ships jolly boat.

 

Not only has my Lynx gone underwater, but my cargo and other stores are gone.

My reputation may have suffered.

I will stand a court martial for losing a ship (If its the navies). Will be harder to get  the backing for another privateer etc.

I may also have been training up a fairly hard core of officers and crewmen, who are probably now all dead as a result of few sailors being able to swim. Oh well back to training landsmen and recruiting inexperienced officers.

 

So depending how the end game deals with the unknown, we hopefully see situations where a player has to judge wisely if it is worth risking his crew and ship for a deliberate ram.

 

 

PS. Whilst I don't tend to ram as I fear damage now, costing me a repair I need later, ramming has to occur in testing so that the effects can be recorded and balanced and discussion take place on the aftermath etc.

 

If all the testers were averse to ramming we would be in a bad way when the masses join the end game and only just start testing the ramming system.

 

Better now and get it balanced both the physical effects on the ships, and the cost after the battle.

[Jeheil]

I have on occasion rammed by accident/muppetry/poor captaincy and I admit...once or twice deliberately...with a full belly of seawater in a sort of Taliban cheerio.

 

I found when I first started playing, judging the turns/momentum meant a tight turn became a near t-bone ram....and indeed as I am now trying to get better and better with manual sailing...on occasion I just get the best for/aft combo wrong...or don't take into account the dampening effect of water in the hold

 

When possible I say sorry...the chat mechanic doesnt make that overly easy as you have to 'take your hand off the rudder' to chat.

 

Where the victim of ramming has sunk...this is where the hate can get bad. They are in game chat...but dont have to sail....they are also sad. And perhaps having a bad day/streak of games to boot.

 

Thus your sorry is met by a public 'you did it deliberately'....when this is proffered in public, it is hard not to get involved, simply apologise again and leave the verbal engagement is my tip.

 

There was one chap (who I know to be a good sailor in general as I have faced him/been on his side many times) that made 3 rams last night, two blue-on-blues, it was a big game (20+ ships) rough sees and we had an all in brawl. I got hit once by him...sorry..was his quick message..no probs was the quick reply.

 

In general if someone says sorry...even if it looks like they aimed at you (in many cases when you think you are going to ram you do all sorts of silly wiggles) just accept it.

 

Never argue while still sailing...and in general take my grandma's advice...."Never argue in public with an idiot....the audience will struggle to tell which one that is".

[Salty Dog (Xabaras)]

Only thing that really irritates me is when I ram with Victory or Santisima much smaller ship and lose my bowsprit. My bowsprit doesn't even touch other ship, but it snaps like i hit solid rock going 15 knots.

[Sophist]

Today I rammed with my Navy Brig an opponent's Privateer. It was done by an accident, I thought I will be able to make a turn go behind his stern. Well, I haven't assessed his speed and my rate of turn and rammed him. He was in a bad shape anyway, so he would sink in one or two more broadsides, but because of my ram, he just sank few seconds later.

 

Aaaand it started with a sarcastic "thanks for the ram". I said that I was sorry and it was an accident, but he tried to argue with me, that it was done on purpose. Even if, so what? I DO ram sometimes on purpose if some smaller ship passes by and is beat up pretty badly. It saves time and your broadside for another opponent, so we could say it's a viable tactic. Why some of people butthurt so much about ramming?

 

Most players forget this is an alpha. No one should expect "normal" gameplay in this environment, and they certainly shouldn't get bent out of shape for things like this. I've spent a lot of games ramming players, both on my team and other teams, because I was trying to see how the game handles that damage...and I intend to do more still as well. That's part of testing.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Sophist

[AtomicTiger]

for my part, i am ok with every body ramming my ship to dead or just damage me.

why not? you can do the same if you want to.

also there is often Team ram which cant be avoided in middel of the battle, one word and its well, just say sorry or nothing but never go upset and rage. (cause it allready happend!)

 

Also when its on Open World you will propably watch to avoid to ram anybody because you will lose your ship with that move.

I see no need to talk about that, if it is ok or not. The only need to talk about that is when somebody ingame goes crazy and calls you any bad things and go offensive way over the top.

[Kaaru62]

I almost sunk a trincomalee with a surprise during a storm battle. I was going behind him and ended up perched on his stern. was cool.

[SueMyChin]

Only thing that really irritates me is when I ram with Victory or Santisima much smaller ship and lose my bowsprit. My bowsprit doesn't even touch other ship, but it snaps like i hit solid rock going 15 knots.

 

Yeh, it's a bit derpy like that. Hopefully hit mechanics on the masts and yards are improved with future damage models.

Long term when one ship hits another ship or some other solid structure, there should not only be massive damage to the offending ship but also a good chance of carrying away masts as the inertia carries them forward contrary to the hull of the ship.

This would soon stop players ramming each other .

[darkhound]

Like everyone has said, Untill you lose your ship and have to buy a new one or whatever the game mechanics willl bring, There will alway's be ramming. I think it takes away from the realism if you ram everything in site, hit escape, and jump into the same ship and join another match but to each his own. 

[Grim DeGrim]

I quote:

 

 

The quality of the French navy had declined as the number of ships increased [during the War of American Independence].  It had too few officers to meet the demand,...  Also it had difficulty in raising the unprecedented number of crewmen it needed.  De Grasse [Lieutenant General of Fleet - France] lost several ships in collision due to poor seamanship ... [a total of 6 from a fleet of 36, including the additional he then needed to redeploy as escorts]

-

The Age of the Ship of the Line:  The British & French Navies, 1650-1815  [author:  Jonathan R. Dull]

 

It is all coming clear...  French side isn't ramming.  We're role playing.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Meraun]

i usually ram when i try to board someone, i think valid.. since i need to slow him down in order to boards.

 

Its also valid for an big ships vs a small one, for example a lynx try to block a vic. IT just sails over it and th lynx flipped over :-)

[WallCandy]

Ramming happens. Collisions are part of the game (Outside of that dang lighthouse and island, which I believe is there for the flying dutchman or something.). Most rams are purely accidents, some rams are not, and sometimes ramming is just a good tactical call. So if you ever ram someone who is on the enemy team, don't feel bad about it. Tell them to get out their doll and show you where the bad ship touched them.

 

This becomes doubly important once you get into the larger ships, where jousting at each other with your bowsprits doesn't lead to irrevocable ship loss. I tend to play my connie a lot, I love it, just my sort of ship. And when I play my connie I tend to screen my SOLs, and as anyone who has a bit of game time with me will tell you, I will use my ship very aggressively just as I would my cannons. I will put myself into a position where you have to either break away from my line or run into me. I will side scrape you to force you onto a new course. I /will/ run your rear end over if you are in a light ship and I am on a storm match (not that we have light ships with my Connie now). I will have you T-bone me if it means that I can board and eliminate your suprise or trinc or whatever from the match. That is the way the game goes.

 

And in light ship PVP, well I am convinced no one in that actually knows how to sail (at least not yet) so I expect the target fixation, the not watching your minimap while you line up broadsides, the random shennanigans. It is life, not need to apologize.

 

But the biggest lesson is this.

 

Always ram Leviathan. He will kill the rest of your team by himself if you don't.

 

Seriously, I am not joking, I have seen him do it.

[Elysion]

I see the problem now. Ramming doesn't do enough damage. It should be something you do because you are sinking anyway to try and even the odds, not a viable method of attack where you ram someone and then just keep on fighting. Ramming should wreck both ships if they are anywhere near the same displacement, and still do heavy damage to the larger ship even if there is a massive size difference. It should be an effective last resort, but a last resort.

[Kaaru62]

I used a ram this morning on a Constitution to sink it before it could repair. we had hit it hard on the port side, and I was going to overshoot before my guns reloaded, and I was in a position to ram him hard with my Surprise. I hit it hard enough to sink it and made it through myself, barely.

 

on a different occasion my side had one with a yacht left as a disconnect. I rammed him at full speed with almost full armor and a repair, and still sunk almost instantly. go figure.

[Lucas Corso]

If deliberate ramming was an effective method of attack in the period of the game it would have been commonly done historically. It wasn't. The mechanics of the game need to reflect this.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Lucien Delmonte

[shifty]

As a rule we lose a bowsprit on a head-on ram. As I understand there was a greater risk of losing one of the big masts from the force of impact?

 

Anyway, it was said here that a steeper cost would perhaps reduce ramming. But how you introduce a steep cost of losing a ship when a normal outcome of a battle is one-two ships afloat out of 20 that started it?

[Ghroznak]

Here is my take on ramming.

 

1. If the enemy is close to sinking and rams your ship, then it is YOUR fault that you got rammed since you could have sailed away and denied him the opportunity. If he is about to sink, why wouldn't he ram you if you give him the window of opportunity?

 

2. If the enemy is in a smaller ship and puts himself into a position where you can ram him with your larger ship then it is HIS fault for putting himself in that position. Why wouldn't I ram a smaller ship if I get the opportunity and save my large caliber cannons for the bigger enemy ships?

 

3. Accidental ramming... well, wise man said it takes two people to make a ram successful. Either BOTH players involved failed to maintain their situational awareness (tunnel vision while firing cannons anyone?), which means both players are to blame, or one player failed to maintain situational awareness and the other one simply didn't care, failed to estimate the speed, course and turn rate involved to avoid the ram.

 

Either way, BOTH involved parties are to blame on accidental rams.

 

4. Intentional Ramming.... most people try to avoid ramming as long as their ship is either a) still combat able, or they still feel like they have a fighting chance to win. If someone attempts to intentionally ram then the only real way that they can achieve this is by having a smaller, faster ship. Otherwise, see above #1. You should be more than able to maneuver to avoid the ram.

 

Bottom line:

 

Ramming will not disappear so there is no point getting upset about. You, personally, can take several measures to avoid the ramming (as outlined above).

[Destraex]

Ghroznak your perspective is a players perspective. One who has no care for his men or hope to live through as battle. In short its a gamers attitude rather than in the spirit of the time. I do understand the online gamers attitude of win at all costs of course.

[MATANZA]

Wait, so that's not a game? I know, I know, immersion and stuff, but dude... You took it too far I think.

Edited February 16, 2015 by MATANZA

[ParaBellum]

The question is if you see Naval Action as some kind of team deathmatch game with ships or if you see it more as an age-of-sail battle simulator.

 

If your prefer the latter the frequent intentional ramming of enemy ships is not excatly something you like to see.

 

I know I don't.

 

But as long as the only outcome of a fight is "win or die" I doubt we'll see a behaviour change.

[MATANZA]

But as long as the only outcome of a fight is "win or die" I doubt we'll see a behaviour change.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it's an outcome of every single battle thorough the history of humanity. I know that there's no any other option to end a fight, but addind new mechanics won't change much anyway.

 

The question is if you see Naval Action as some kind of team deathmatch game with ships or if you see it more as an age-of-sail battle simulator.

Even if it is a simulator, I don't see any cons in using a viable tactic which is ramming in certain circumstances.

 

/edit:

Uhm, yeah. And I wouldn't call Naval Action a simulator.

Edited February 16, 2015 by MATANZA

[Captain Boneboys]

If truth be it, he that beleff that merit is due to simpleton ramming, thou art nowt but an artless, boil brained pignut !

[Austrum]

Some of the ramming is quite ridiculous.  Had a ram this weekend where an enemy ship hit me at a super shallow angle.  I mean so shallow that for all intents and purposes we were side by side, yet somehow instead of hitting and rebounding off each other as a glancing blow like should have happened, he got hooked up on my bow and rolled me under.  Him and I both were like "Yeah, that shouldn't happen".

 

So yeah if you T-bone and enemy ship at full speed and you are in a much larger ship, then yeah your going to stave in his side, otherwise, collisions just seem way too serious, especially like in my example above, they are just glancing blows.

[ParaBellum]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it's an outcome of every single battle thorough the history of humanity. I know that there's no any other option to end a fight, but addind new mechanics won't change much anyway.

 

Even if it is a simulator, I don't see any cons in using a viable tactic which is ramming in certain circumstances.

 

/edit:

Uhm, yeah. And I wouldn't call Naval Action a simulator.

 

If you look at historic engagements you'll note that few ship battles actually ended with one ship sinking, surrendering a ship was a FAR more frequent outcome.

 

Ramming simply isn't a "viable tactic" since ramming should mean a very high chance for ships to not survive the crash.

 

ATM we don't have to worry about a crew or officers, so we see a typical deatmatch mentaliy with little regard to longterm consequences.

 

For the open world game I hope for something like "surrendering keeps X % of the trained crew" or something like that to prevent every engagement becoming a fight to the death, which IMO is quite absurd for a game like NA.

[MATANZA]

We're currently testing naval combat, that's why there's no other outcome.

Ramming simply isn't a "viable tactic" since ramming should mean a very high chance for ships to not survive the crash.

I'm not some kind of ship engineer, but I think that ramming some smaller vessel like schooner with a frigate would do much damage for the bigger ship.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

That all depends on the disparities in size between the ships, on what spot the smaller ship was hit, and the speeds of the vessels.  It might be something that gashes a huge hole in the bow of the larger ship, or the larger ship might not even feel it and have a little damaged paint.