A Controversial Subject.

[HachiRoku]

 

Read the whole topic or not at all please!

I did not want to make a topic about this subject and wanted to pm @admin about this to avoid big arguments about the DLC ships but I believe the community is also not objective enough about the subject so you should all read this. 

First of all I want to point out that I have defended the 2 DLC ships by supporting them joining port battles and refusing to call the P2W since our community overreacts and must have not played Naval Action for longer than 6 months. The reason I know they are not p2w is simple. Almost all ships that were added to the game were OP at some point. Surprise was OP, Trinco was OP, Santa Cecilia was OP, Wasa was op and many other ships that were free ships were OP. I do not believe in balancing ships since some ships are simply better than others. The developers of a flight simulator does't need to justify why the F-22 is ""OP" compared to the F-14, F-15, F-16-F-4 etc. Some ships are better that others and in Naval Action certain ships are 100 years more advanced than others.

Balancing doesn't work and cannot work. 

Endymion>Trinco 

Suprise > Renomme

Bellona > Wasa

Wasa > Connie

Connie>All frigates

Connie<All Lineships. The only ship in the game that is comparable to the connie is the endymion. Even then you cannot balance. Connie is heavier period.  

Suprise>Herc Except for mast sniping but if masts were given hp buff on lighter frigates it would be ok. Endymion, Trinco, Connies have decent mast HP and thickness. They should be examples in my opinion. Anyway in a fight with no mast sniping I have killed 2 average pvpers with a Herc and Diana with my suprise in a 1v2. Herc in a gun fight will loose 9 times out of ten to a surprise. 

Requin is Hard to compare because she is so fast close hauled. I believe this ship is to fast and really needs a close hauled nerf. Maybe pirate rig nerf. I do not know that much about pirate rig to be honest. My judgement comes from observing and fighting those ships in battle. I cannot tell what mods they use. 

Anyway my issue is this reply admin gave me for a discussion I had in it. 

If you want you can read the topic from page 1-7. Read how I defended the DLC ships and argued that they must be able to join all activities myself. Read everything I discussed with @Wraith about P2W and DLC etc up until this post by admin. I might be right I might be wrong, that beside the point but I do not want to say anything out of context!

On 12/12/2018 at 12:48 PM, admin said:

all ships must be able to participate in all activities(Hachi agrees with this part 100%). in terms of value - why not capture 3-5 suprises for free? You can only use 1 herc in a day. but you can use as many captured ships as you want.(Hachi disagrees with this part 100%) 

If you read it you would see I defended those ships from being P2W, OP and being able to join PBs because If someone buys a product IT MUST be able to take part in all activities just like admin said. I believe they break RVR ship building logistics (For people that do not know, Logistics is sailing resources and building ships in ports with shipyards close to the war. NOT redeeming a ship in a Freetown).

@admin makes the bad argument that I as someone that does not own the dlc have the time to grind surprises for port battles. Here is what I have to say about that. For me to grind 5 suprises it would take me 2-3 hours of searching and finding AI ships to attack and capture in open sea. I would make 60 euros in 3 hours. Why does someone that pays 10 euro get unlimited access to ships and I have to grind them????? I was defending the ships and admin unintentionally made an argument that DLC ships are P2W. Not because they are OP or whatever. It is because they have no value in game. I did mention this to @Hethwill the Red Duke a few months ago but since admin is still using the same argument he must not have read it.

The problem is that DLC ships are more convient than craftable ships and convenience is what makes them P2W. That is the definition of P2W. You have no argument there.

10 Euros is how much I spend on smokes everyday.  I would say 5 Herc permits for 10 euro is more than enough value. That is 2 euro per permit and those ships could be made captureable and CRAFTABLE by MATERIALS! This is impossible now because people have bought the DLC. I do not think that can be changed anymore. It is my oppinion that the DLC model is completely flawed in terms of game design. I am sorry I say it but YOU ALL know I am right. 

 

Another offtopic thing I would also like to point out to the community and forum bans. I have been open and said what I thought of the DLC ships etc. I have even openly said I will not buy them for being game breaking. I have been way more critical of the DLC model than anyone else. Some of you like @Otto Kohl wonder why you get permabans etc. You cannot say the game is shit or call a developer stupid. If I don't get banned for what I say. Noone can be banned. There is no line in terms of criticism to be crossed. If its constructive its always good. I have 7 warnings on the forums and I could have been permabanned for what I have said to other players many times over. You all know what I am like in national news and global. The Devs could have silenced me for loads of things so far and have not. So stop complaining and please give reasons for why you don't like something and don't just say OP and P2W. They are not arguments. I read the forums sometimes and notice some people will argue with the devs about stupid stuff and on other forums I have used so far that is never tolerated. The forum owners by right can ban you for harassing the devs and I have seen this in patch notes many times. People argue about the stupidest things in these topics. If you do not believe me try using any other game developer forum. I get banned after 1-2 days on average. 

Last but not least I really hope PEOPLE DO NOT USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE. It is confusing and many of you might notice although I am Irish I did not go to school in Ireland. I learned to read and write in german. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Vernon Merrill]

My hot take on the DLC ships is that they are less "P2W" as they are "Pay to Participate"...

Much like the Wasa, Surprise and other ships you mentioned, once they were tamed a bit, they became fine to me.

Despite the fact that I strongly advocate for logistics and crafting to require movement of goods and materials in the OW, I accept the fact that some people simply dont have the time to fully engage in those activities.

If it allows them to still enjoy the game by dropping a few dollars for easy access, I can live with it.

The bottom line is that there ARE craftable ships that just as good, if not better, that are in game.

Despite what the meta-gamer, stat-freaks say...

 

EDIT:  Now if you want to have a conversation about "mods", I'd be glad to complain about those.....

Edited December 18, 2018 by Vernon Merrill

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Despite the fact that I strongly advocate for logistics and crafting to require movement of goods and materials in the OW, I accept the fact that some people simply dont have the time to fully engage in those activities.

I am sorry man but that is not a valid point. Either Naval Action is a hardcore openworld sandbox or it is not. You cannot have both. If RVR and ships are supposed to be hard to build by design the DLC ships also need to be. Convenience is not an argument. I say this as someone that doesn't have the time to play more than 2 hours a week. I work monday to Saturday 10 hours a day since january. Just cause I don't have the time to play doesn't mean there should be a trinco dlc that I can buy for 10 euros. That would break the game for everyone that wants to play the game for real.

[Christendom]

You should quit smoking.  

I would discuss moderation with you, but having just come off a 2 week ban....I'd prefer to not get another.  I will just say that myself and others have received forum moderation for negative feedback on forum threads requesting feedback.  My most recent one was because I linked a copy of our empty clan roster during primetime.  Yup.

 

As for DLC ships, I think any ship that isn't craftable should not belong in port battles.  RVR should be about logistics, planning and battle execution.  DLC ships negate this and as we saw with hercs and requins in PBs over the past 6 months, they impacted RVR negatively in my opinion. 

Regardless, here is the description from the Herc DLC on the steam page.

https://gyazo.com/9f0245058efec15039ebe74055945084

It is not specified that DLC ships can enter or cannot enter port battles.  Thus denying their entry into battles is not denying anyone who purchases the DLC content or access to their ship.  Problem solved.  By definition these are P2W ships.  And I'm fine with that.  They should be slightly more OP than similarly equipped/sized counterparts since you're paying money for them.  I'm fine with them being exactly what they currently are.  Better than average ships that can be redeemed and lost without issue and used to encourage OW PVP.  

I draw the line on P2W ships turning into a necessity to win port battles.  Which up until recently, they were.  This is an unacceptable form of P2W and it's like ruins games.  Requins being allowed in shallow port battles effectively ruined the shallow water scene for months.  It's entry into deep water battles also disgusted many a player and was a contributing factor to them quitting RVR and/or leaving the came completely.

NO DLC SHIPS IN PBs EVER!

So TLDR - Don't smoke Hachi.  Don't post clan roster screen shots.  DLC = P2W.  P2W is cool, just not in port battles.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Christendom

[Hethwill]

Got summoned... give me time to read this.

[HachiRoku]

7 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Despite what the meta-gamer, stat-freaks say...

Stats freaks and Meta gaming doesn't exist in "simulators". Naval Action has lost the hardcore realism part. Repairs, Armour thickness, mast hp and thickness are not things we should be talking about. In simulators you discuss tactics and in stats games metas. Naval action is a stats game to a certain extent. I have issues with the 2 ships but in my oppinon that is a mechanics design issue that is 10 pages long and has nothing to do with ships. People are blaming the wrong thing.

[staun]

3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I am sorry man but that is not a valid point. Either Naval Action is a hardcore openworld sandbox or it is not. You cannot have both. If RVR and ships are supposed to be hard to build by design the DLC ships also need to be. Convenience is not an argument. I say this as someone that doesn't have the time to play more than 2 hours a week. I work monday to Saturday 10 hours a day since january. Just cause I don't have the time to play doesn't mean there should be a trinco dlc that I can buy for 10 euros. That would break the game for everyone that wants to play the game for real.

Well If I get you right. Dlc should be changed to permits. And then you have to do all the normal stuff for crafting, But isen't that also pay to win. You get acces to a better ship that others simply by spend money. What if they start to use the same system for bigger ships, Wouldn't that be pay to win to. No matter how you put Dls ships in the game they will by some definition be pay to win.

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Christendom said:

You should quit smoking.  

I would discuss moderation with you, but having just come off a 2 week ban....I'd prefer to not get another.  I will just say that myself and others have received forum moderation for negative feedback on forum threads requesting feedback.  My most recent one was because I linked a copy of our empty clan roster during primetime.  Yup.

 

As for DLC ships, I think any ship that isn't craftable does not belong in port battles.  RVR should be about logistics, planning and battle execution.  DLC ships negate this and as we saw with hercs and requins in PBs over the past 6 months, they impacted RVR negatively in my opinion. 

Regardless, here is the description from the Herc DLC on the steam page.

https://gyazo.com/9f0245058efec15039ebe74055945084

It is not specified that DLC ships can enter or cannot enter port battles.  Thus denying their entry into battles is not denying anyone who purchases the DLC content or access to their ship.  Problem solved.  By definition these are P2W ships.  And I'm fine with that.  They should be slightly more OP than similarly equipped/sized counterparts since you're paying money for them.  I'm fine with them being exactly what they currently are.  Better than average ships that can be redeemed and lost without issue and used to encourage OW PVP.  

I draw the line on P2W ships turning into a necessity to win port battles.  Which up until recently, they were.  This is an unacceptable form of P2W and it's like ruins games.  Requins being allowed in shallow port battles effectively ruined the shallow water scene for months.  It's entry into deep water battles also disgusted many a player and was a contributing factor to them quitting RVR and/or leaving the came completely.

NO DLC SHIPS IN PBs EVER!

So TLDR - Don't smoke Hachi.  Don't post clan roster screen shots.  DLC = P2W.  P2W is cool, just not in port battles.

You are missing the point of the whole topic. The ships are flawed by design and they should not be allowed to join port battles as they are now. This I agree with. I am making the argument that the ships MUST be changed in order to join port battles but MUST BE ABLE TO TAKE PART in them. Dont blame the DLC, blame the mechanics. 

[Vernon Merrill]

10 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I am sorry man but that is not a valid point. Either Naval Action is a hardcore openworld sandbox or it is not. You cannot have both. If RVR and ships are supposed to be hard to build by design the DLC ships also need to be. Convenience is not an argument. I say this as someone that doesn't have the time to play more than 2 hours a week. I work monday to Saturday 10 hours a day since january. Just cause I don't have the time to play doesn't mean there should be a trinco dlc that I can buy for 10 euros. That would break the game for everyone that wants to play the game for real.

Here's the deal...

In my heart, I agree with every word you said...

In my head, I think allowances must be made....

[Hethwill]

Oh...

... you know what...

Step 1. DLC can only be redeemed in ports where Admiralty is present.

( i mentioned this a few times before )

 

... let me ruminate a bit in the rest...

[jodgi]

5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Stats freaks and Meta gaming doesn't exist in "simulators".

So, you never played Aces High, Warbirds or Air Warrior?

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, staun said:

Well If I get you right. Dlc should be changed to permits. And then you have to do all the normal stuff for crafting, But isen't that also pay to win. You get acces to a better ship that others simply by spend money. What if they start to use the same system for bigger ships, Wouldn't that be pay to win to. No matter how you put Dls ships in the game they will by some definition be pay to win.

No. Its not pay to win because ship balance is not an argument. I understand what you mean but I don't think it applys to sims and car racing games. Realism goes before everything else in my oppinon. Ships should perform according to real life stats and BR should be used to balance. 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Here's the deal...

In my heart, I agree with every word you said...

In my head, I think allowances must be made....

Because its objective and not convenience. 

[Christendom]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

You are missing the point of the whole topic. The ships are flawed by design and they should not be allowed to join port battles as they are now. This I agree with. I am making the argument that the ships MUST be changed in order to join port battles but MUST BE ABLE TO TAKE PART in them. Dont blame the DLC, blame the mechanics. 

You're trying to over complicate the this problem.  Is a ship craftable?  Yes.  Enter port battle.  No.  No enter port battle.   Problem solved. 

A DLC model on a game that has yet to be released is inherently flawed, so of course all the DLCs will be too.  

[Hethwill]

Just now, jodgi said:

So, you never played Aces High, Warbirds or Air Warrior?

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/bookofdweeb/

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, jodgi said:

So, you never played Aces High, Warbirds or Air Warrior?

I have not. 

[HachiRoku]

4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

You're trying to over complicate the this problem.  Is a ship craftable?  Yes.  Enter port battle.  No.  No enter port battle.   Problem solved. 

A DLC model on a game that has yet to be released is inherently flawed, so of course all the DLCs will be too.  

No I am looking for a solution so everyone is happy. Fix the god damn mechanics and let everyone play the game. Period. 

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

I have not. 

Not really important but meta-gaming if very much a thing in proper sims. Takes on a different quality than here, tho.

[staun]

10 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

No. Its not pay to win because ship balance is not an argument. I understand what you mean but I don't think it applys to sims and car racing games. Realism goes before everything else in my oppinon. Ships should perform according to real life stats and BR should be used to balance. 

My point was less of stats of a ship. I agree with you ships should be build on there stats, not nerfed soe all are the same. But by accepting that some ppl get acces to ships that other dosent have because they havent spend money. I can't see that as not accepting pay to win.  It isjust the degree we talk about. The admiralty connection is also pay to win. You get some benefits thats other dosen't. We don't hear much complaint abouth that one. 

Edited December 18, 2018 by staun

[LeBoiteux]

Can someone summarize/explain OP in a sentence as if I were 5 ?

Edited December 18, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Hethwill]

A age of sail book of dweeb would be a wondrous thing 😮

 

Anywaaaaaay...

Step 2. No redeem if account has 1 in existance ANYWHERE in the world ( even in fleet )

( see step 1 somewhere above )

 

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Not really important but meta-gaming if very much a thing in proper sims. Takes on a different quality than here, tho.

yes but please don't start that argument here. You know what I mean and just make my argument weaker  

[Porpoise]

I have an idea how this could work

Owner of a DLC can redeem 1 permit or 1 note for Herc/Req per day. If the player decides to craft a DLC ship using materials and labour then these ships should be allowed to participate in PBs. If you decide to redeem one (for free) using note then they should be banned from these events. It is simple. 1/2 of the RVR is supplies and gathering them costs time (capturing ships, building ships, etc.). Redeeming a ship costs you nothing. Imagine what would happen if there is a 2nd rate DLC for example ...

[HachiRoku]

6 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Can someone summarize/explain OP in a sentence as if I were 5 ?

Ship not problem. 

Game and dlc ship mechanics are problem. Ship armour, Cannon penetration, RVR ship building and sailing profiles. 

10 euro is to cheap for free ships in game. 10 Euro is 30 minutes of my real life time

I am sorry it is a very sensitive issue that is hard to explain. 

[HachiRoku]

19 minutes ago, Christendom said:

You're trying to over complicate the this problem.  Is a ship craftable?  Yes.  Enter port battle.  No.  No enter port battle.   Problem solved. 

A DLC model on a game that has yet to be released is inherently flawed, so of course all the DLCs will be too.  

And another thing.... If you dont fix the DLC issue now it will be worse at release. I don't accept compromises. I expect a fix and a solution to every problem.

Edited December 18, 2018 by HachiRoku