The Newbro Problem

[Slim McSauce]

31 minutes ago, Capt Trashal Early said:

FYI i'm all for safe zones The new players need protecting.

Safezones are a false guise. They only offer protection in the most narrow of circumstance and are mostly used by old players to avoid combat. New players still get ganked  constantly. If you're for new player retention you'd want a smaller, completely safe home base type safezone where small trade and rookie pve can take place.

There's plenty of room for it, either out of the way from capitals in their own pve nation or inside capitals, but in return ow pvp needs a real objective so we can stop pretending that sitting at an enemy capital for 40 minutes has any real affect. (it's as impactful as a rubber mallet on an empty pillowcase)

From the looks of it ow pvp is just bad, so many excuses that we have no room for new players, we don't utilize the room ourselves (mostly because lack of any ow mechanics to promote fights around the map.

We could fit all the casuals and noobs this game draws, but it means actually giving a shit about ow pvp to develop for it. Sad to see so many people disregard the new player in favor of their own expenditure. They must think this game is truly hopeless, that you have to choose between keeping new players safe and old players happy.

[Palatinose]

I'll share my thoughts and questions on the matter.

Newbies need protection? How do I define a newbie in this game? I'm really interested. 

As @Tac said, the time needed to sail 1st rates is damn short. So we get out of tutorial, have 200(?) crew and can start into the sandbox. Usual way is find a clan, get helped leveling, sail Bucs or Vic or even bigger after two or three weeks. And now we have human nature as factor starting to contribute to the given issues. Once one tastes the sweetness of the 42pds roaring, one only want to sail big boats. That's for the usual (I can't prove it, I set up a theory here). 

So now we have the problem, that the player on paper is Commodore or even Rear Admiral after three weeks. This doesn't represent in any way his skill. So my question is for us old vets who want to integrate new players into their clans and into the game overall (I wouldn't really care if one joins my clan, we teach him sailing and he leaves after some time): how do you teach them? For me there is only one possibility: just tell them to get out and try on their own. Provide them with mediocre ships and cannons and upgrades. When they fight, they will lose. They come to you on Comms and tell you about the fight. You ask questions and explain. They try those things in the next fight. Lose again. Next advice..and so on. Sometimes take them with you when you raid. And you can see them improve as they understand the game more with every fight. 

Foray: the only point I really would reward with more (or any) gold and xp (no pvp marks) is damage done in any battle. No marks but gold and xp so a player gets something.

Until this point over 50% will just have quitted. For sure! You need so much time to learn in this game and the moment when you will be rewarded the first time in a pvp fight may be over a month after having completed tuts. Damn this is hello kittying hardcore!!! 

For those that survive the first part:

When they understand the basics of pvping, teach them the fleet stuff. Tactics, maneuvers, protecting damaged allies, getting out of harsh situations in fleets etc..

After that they should be able to participate in pbs. End game content reached. Time needed to get there: three month minimum for a mediocre talented player. 

Do safe zones have something to do with that? Nope, not at all.

[Slim McSauce]

8 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

When they understand the basics of pvping, teach them the fleet stuff. Tactics, maneuvers, protecting damaged allies, getting out of harsh situations in fleets etc..

After that they should be able to participate in pbs. End game content reached. Time needed to get there: three month minimum for a mediocre talented player. 

sounds like the only thing to do pvp wise is hunting capitals and pbs. LOL

that's funny, it's like the line of progression and variety for pvp is actually a toggle switch.

But seriously, why are the majority of pvp and the majority of new players in the exact same spots on the map? smh

Edited April 18, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Tac]

38 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Obviously how you “old timers” ground up and leveled doesntly really matter now does it?  Those 1500-2000 people in every night....where did they go?  Why didn’t they stick around?  Several posters in this thread are barely even active.  Haven’t seen some of you on in months.  Why haven’t you been more active?

Because the status quo with this game is boring.  It doesn’t keep people engaged like it once did.  Maybe it never did honestly.  Unless you full time RVR there isn’t much to do.  Missions are all the same.  Solo PvP is not a quick affaire   

So really, just because you guys had a certain leveling experience it doesn’t mean we should repeat it for others/new players.  Player retention has been a terrible.  Clearly the old way doesn’t work.  If it did most of you would be active players (you aren’t) and we wouldn’t be barely cracking 500 players during the evenings.  

Depends who your talking about ? You need to be more specific about who your pointing the finger of inactivey at, quite a broad brush your sweeping with.

[victor]

19 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Solution for new comers and veterans alike.

Hard wipe on release.

Solomon's law never fails.

Cannot think of anything better. Any mechanics changed will be explored by veterans in a blink of an eye and we will get back to yard zero.

Not so much: a veteran knows how to get back on track very fast, a new player does not.

Not mentioning that a crapton of players will simply wave bye bye if they will be facing once more the horrible xp (mainly crafting xp that is a bore), books research and ship knowledge slot re-grind.

You tend to confund other players with you: your posts show that you will accept gladly anything from this game, even if (please forgive me for the strong language) they will kick you in the balls. Not everyone is so ... let's say ... passionate. A game is not a work and be compelled to slowly re-grind the same things by doing the same exact boring things thousands of times - after having already spent 3000 + hours in testing the game by making those same things - is funny more or less as a kick in the balls.

Edited April 18, 2018 by victor

[Palatinose]

32 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

sounds like the only thing to do pvp wise is hunting capitals and pbs. LOL

that's funny, it's like the line of progression and variety for pvp is actually a toggle switch.

But seriously, why are the majority of pvp and the majority of new players in the exact same spots on the map? smh

Well what is pvp to you of not hunting solo in fleets or heavy fleet engagements? Nowhere did I state hunting at capitals. 

I don't care at all about new players from other nations or other clans. I just go where most people are. 

But if I sail a 5th and he a 4th or higher I WILL attack the player when it's possible. Just because people tend to sail big boats before they know how to sail and that's just wrong. 

[Hethwill]

Victor,

Sorry if it is confusing but one thing that is certain - I am not attached to the XP, rank and ships I obtain.

True that, I love a good sortie with its own story. Very simulator type of thing.

I think everytime any of us posts anything we should make clear we talk for ourselves only and not for the crowd. So claiming newcomers this or veterans that is moot.

You are either a newcomer or a veteran, not both.

[Navalus Magnus]

20 hours ago, Christendom said:

You cannot expect your game population to be white knights.  If they see a player, they'll sink a player.  That's why the game needs to put protections in place to protect these new players so they stick with the game and become old players.  Most of us, including a lot of the old "war dogs" on these forums that are anti-safe zones and anti-convenience were able to grind up to rear admiral back when missions and AI fleets were able to close, the AI were easier to kill and ships were far easier to get.  So while it's cute to say that its a "PVP game and people should get over it", let's remind these guys that back when they were grinding up it was a very different game than it is now.  

Most Open World MMOs, and by most I mean the successful ones, manage to protect their players through a series of zones.  Albion had Blue, Red and Black zones (no PVP, light PVP, full loot no holds bars PVP), PoTBS had red zones, World of Warcraft has contested and uncontested zones and I know EVE has multiple "secs" that limit PVP.  These areas ensure players can safely farm, craft and mission to their hearts delight and HOPEFULLY turn into old players who will then venture forth into the not so safe zones and go experience the game to it's fullest. 

Up until 6 months ago, Naval Action had nothing.  Zero protections for the new player.  A new player can level up in a basic cutter, use all his cash to purchase that first new frigate and then immediately sail out of the capital area into the waiting arms of enemy players and lose everything instantly.  This is/was a terrible way to introduce new players to your game.  This is one of the reasons...probably one of the biggest....why this game has sold over 120k copies and has only had a steady population of 1000 or less on at one time.  It's just an inhospitable environment for a new player.  I can't even count the amount of new players I've seen talk in nation chat asking questions, watching them figure out the less than intuitive UI...putting cannons on their ships and then watching them talk about losing that first ship they purchased....and then never seeing them again in nation.  Another one down the drain.

So now we have safe zones.  They're big, there's a lot of them....most people still don't know all the rules about them and they are imperfect.  The simple fact that I can roll up to KPR and jump into an AI fleet literally in front of the forts and gank a player in their own capital waters just flat out astonishes me.  In real life you would not be able to sail an enemy ship within sight of KPR and sink ships or traders right under the port noses.....why can you do it in game?

We keep tailoring the PVP ROE to cater to all these wolves that refuse to fight other wolves and only want to sink sheep for PVP marks.  Frankly we should be saying screw them and let them fight each other.  They very rarely do.  The other day on these forums I saw a screenshot of about 10-15 pirates vs Spanish, Russians, BF and Prussians.  All the "elite of the elite" vs 1 group of pirates.  What a joke.  

Anyway....Successful games need to protect their new players.  Naval Action does not.  Which is why we don't have a lot of players.  Focus on making this game more casual friendly and maybe people will return.  More people = more PVP.  Problem solved.

Usually I don’t like to quote big posts, but you definitely hit the spot!

@admin

Why not implement literally safe zones for new players!?

1. All players up to a certain rank (e.g. M&C) or amount of hours in game (e.g. 200) could be immune to tags inside the safe zone; all of thier battles against AI could close instantly!

2. Battles of every other player against AI and inside thier home safe zone should close after 3 minutes in case no enemy players jump in.

3. Inside thier home safe zone all other players should have the possibility to either / or ...

a ) call AI reinforcements within 3 minutes after enemy players jump in thier battles against AI. This would close the battle instantly. The AI reinforcement should be as strong as the enemy ships (players and AI still alive) combined.

b ) hope that friendly players join and rescue them. This would leave the battle open for the whole time it lasts.

4. Increase the damage done by fortifications on land, so that no sane captain would sail in shooting range of an enemy fort (1st, 2nd and maybe 3rd rates might have stood a chance against small towers but not agains forts i‘d say).

5. Just as long as PvE missions exist: Every mission taken at a port inside a players home safe zone should spawn inside this safe zone.

[Tac]

18 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Usually I don’t like to quote big posts, but you definitely hit the spot!

@admin

Why not implement literally safe zones for new players!?

1. All players up to a certain rank (e.g. M&C) or amount of hours in game (e.g. 200) could be immune to tags inside the safe zone; all of thier battles against AI could close instantly!

2. Battles of every other player against AI and inside thier home safe zone should close after 3 minutes in case no enemy players jump in.

3. Inside thier home safe zone all other players should have the possibility to either / or ...

a ) call AI reinforcements within 3 minutes after enemy players jump in thier battles against AI. This would close the battle instantly. The AI reinforcement should be as strong as the enemy ships (players and AI still alive) combined.

b ) hope that friendly players join and rescue them. This would leave the battle open for the whole time it lasts.

4. Increase the damage done by fortifications on land, so that no sane captain would sail in shooting range of an enemy fort (1st, 2nd and maybe 3rd rates might have stood a chance against small towers but not agains forts i‘d say).

5. Just as long as PvE missions exist: Every mission taken at a port inside a players home safe zone should spawn inside this safe zone.

Or 

just for ease of coding no pvp in safe zone job done.

[fox2run]

20 hours ago, Christendom said:

You cannot expect your game population to be white knights.  If they see a player, they'll sink a player.  That's why the game needs to put protections in place to protect these new players so they stick with the game and become old players.  Most of us, including a lot of the old "war dogs" on these forums that are anti-safe zones and anti-convenience were able to grind up to rear admiral back when missions and AI fleets were able to close, the AI were easier to kill and ships were far easier to get.  So while it's cute to say that its a "PVP game and people should get over it", let's remind these guys that back when they were grinding up it was a very different game than it is now.  

Most Open World MMOs, and by most I mean the successful ones, manage to protect their players through a series of zones.  Albion had Blue, Red and Black zones (no PVP, light PVP, full loot no holds bars PVP), PoTBS had red zones, World of Warcraft has contested and uncontested zones and I know EVE has multiple "secs" that limit PVP.  These areas ensure players can safely farm, craft and mission to their hearts delight and HOPEFULLY turn into old players who will then venture forth into the not so safe zones and go experience the game to it's fullest. 

Up until 6 months ago, Naval Action had nothing.  Zero protections for the new player.  A new player can level up in a basic cutter, use all his cash to purchase that first new frigate and then immediately sail out of the capital area into the waiting arms of enemy players and lose everything instantly.  This is/was a terrible way to introduce new players to your game.  This is one of the reasons...probably one of the biggest....why this game has sold over 120k copies and has only had a steady population of 1000 or less on at one time.  It's just an inhospitable environment for a new player.  I can't even count the amount of new players I've seen talk in nation chat asking questions, watching them figure out the less than intuitive UI...putting cannons on their ships and then watching them talk about losing that first ship they purchased....and then never seeing them again in nation.  Another one down the drain.

So now we have safe zones.  They're big, there's a lot of them....most people still don't know all the rules about them and they are imperfect.  The simple fact that I can roll up to KPR and jump into an AI fleet literally in front of the forts and gank a player in their own capital waters just flat out astonishes me.  In real life you would not be able to sail an enemy ship within sight of KPR and sink ships or traders right under the port noses.....why can you do it in game?

We keep tailoring the PVP ROE to cater to all these wolves that refuse to fight other wolves and only want to sink sheep for PVP marks.  Frankly we should be saying screw them and let them fight each other.  They very rarely do.  The other day on these forums I saw a screenshot of about 10-15 pirates vs Spanish, Russians, BF and Prussians.  All the "elite of the elite" vs 1 group of pirates.  What a joke.  

Anyway....Successful games need to protect their new players.  Naval Action does not.  Which is why we don't have a lot of players.  Focus on making this game more casual friendly and maybe people will return.  More people = more PVP.  Problem solved.

I can't remember being ganked as a beginner at all. Why? Becourse beginners start near capital in a cutter or so and go for a PvE mission. 

Only risk when we had 2 min join timer. But with longer timers players can ask for help pretty easy. Closer to own waters is more safe.

[victor]

54 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Victor,

Sorry if it is confusing but one thing that is certain - I am not attached to the XP, rank and ships I obtain.

True that, I love a good sortie with its own story. Very simulator type of thing.

I think everytime any of us posts anything we should make clear we talk for ourselves only and not for the crowd. So claiming newcomers this or veterans that is moot.

You are either a newcomer or a veteran, not both.

I'm a vetearan but I was a newcomer (as everyone here), so I can have a grounded idea about the fact that a veteran, due to his experience, would reach results in game as twice as fast than a newcomer could do.

Edited April 18, 2018 by victor

[Hethwill]

Indeed ! And the game progressed a lot, thankfully.

That's why the entire "Welcome Newcomer!" Tutorial system, that a newcomer can play in single player, without interference, and ranking up to Master & Commander and rewards was introduced - one of the most requested feature was a tutorial.

 

[Moria15]

I honestly believe that the rank system is not helping here...  

The current system is that as you get experience your rank changes and you can hire more crew (from an unlimited pool..   that's something else I bvelieve should change, but not this post as vitually NO ship of this period sailed with a full crew and press gangs and limited crew have NO representation in the game).. but that rank is DIRECTLY related to the experience you have earned, however you earned it..  you can become a Rear Admiral by just sailing a cutter which doesn't mean you can sail a first rate in any way shape or form although your "rank" allows you too if you can afford it.

If you are going to have levels in this game, they shouldn't be equated to ranks..  they should be equated to experience in ships which is nothing to do with experience earned in other ways and too much experience can be gained by methods that encourage exploiting weaker players.

If you sail a cutter and always sail a cutter, there is no reason you should ever be anything other than a midshipman.    If you were sailing a frigate as M&C, and go back to a cutter..  your rank should return to Midshipman.  (Many officers in this period accepted reduced rank in quiet times in order to stay at sea rather than go on half-list)

Whilst there has to be a visible form of progression in a game to give people targets..  tying that to arbitary experiance as provided in this game is not how it worked in real life and doesnt help the game.

Rank availability should be based on number of battles won in a ship type ( * see last para for options here)...   ie..  win 4 battles in a cutter and you then have the ABILITY to be promoted to the next rank, which you can do by applying to the Admiralty and  passing an exam  (specific mission (HARD) set by game possibly also with a cost which you can take as amany times as needed once the requirements have been fulfilled).   This allows you to claim the new rank and sail a bigger ship  ( possibly use more skills or books ) and so on....   however..  if you go back to sailing in a cutter..  whilst you are in that cutter..  your rank is back to midshipman and any benefits you get from rank progression are temporarily reset to Midshipman level whilst you are in a ship that warrants it.  You don't loose them, but you can't use those additional skills/books/whatevers as a midshipman.

It could also be staged (as MMO's usually are)   Midshipman test after 4 wins..  next rank 6 wins.. next rank 10 etc...    If you REALLY want to emulate history  you could make that consecutive wins to represent noticable status.   If you want to make it hardcore, then the wins should be against certain ships of equal rate to yours and /or higher. If you want to stop people being given the ranks by clans helping them by letting them tag along for victories.. make it only solo wins that count not groups.   Now you have a real target that makes it worth going for that rank and means that the people fighting ships really have an understanding of what they are doing.  If all nations are doing this then everyone will be looking for solo fights to earn their ranks so finding opposition should be much easier.

It also means that ganking against easy targets will NOT help a career progression..  if you want to progress you HAVE to do what everyone is crying for.. real PvP against equal opponents.

Add this to other mechanisms in the game and you might have the start of something that rewards being in the game.

Remember.. as admin has said.. this is a hardcore only game that is meant to be realistic (as much as a game can be)..  so lets start seeing some hardcore mechanics rather than boredom will still get you everything if you just log on for long enough.

Being able to get to Rear Admiral without ever getting out of a cutter is pretty lame and kinda destroys the hardcore description.

I would also make it that victories against lower rate ships/ranks recieve much less if any rewards, whilst victories against higher ranks/ships attrract much higher rewards...  that way it is less likely that experienced captains will target newer players and there is a reward for fighting equal or more experienced captains...  now we have almost set a small protection to newer players by other more desirable mechanics, rather than by rulesets.  It also has a side benefit of indirectly helping those that want to trade or PvE on the main server by giving them the ability to accept what rank they are comfortable with by letting each player individually choose Risk v Reward by allowing choice of rank in the game.

ANd before anyone has a meltdown and starts scremaing   OMG 10 victories in a row..  ERMAHGERD.. only l33t players wanted...  were talking a mechanic...  it could just as easily be..  10 solo battles where you have exceeded x amount of damage win or loose  rather than win.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Moria15

[IndianaGeoff]

9 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Indeed ! And the game progressed a lot, thankfully.

I could not disagree more.

[Hethwill]

7 hours ago, IndianaGeoff said:

I could not disagree more.

Back to the era with no missions ? Without production buildings ? No outposts ? Without teleports ? A third of the ships models we have today ? 

I guess the 5 / 2 / 1 duras would payoff the absence of those, right ?

Do not deny that progress is visible in the last 2,5 years, let alone the closed pre-EA development.

We shall always disagree with many things implemented, I know I do.

.

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

19 hours ago, Navalus Magnus said:

...Why not implement literally safe zones for new players!?...

What if capital green zone is safe zone for all? Players can safely grind more money and xp and when they feel ready they sail out for some PvP.

The end game outside green zones?  Granted, there are not much to do outside green zones right now but maybe later.

New players can play with their more experienced friend on green. None can come to mess up their learning sessions or PvE fun. He can spend there 1 year if he so wants to. He is still connected to the same economy and indirectly supporting his nations PvP oriented players. I would be surprised if he were so HC PvE guy that he would never sail to PvP.

[Angus MacDuff]

20 hours ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Increase the damage done by fortifications on land, so that no sane captain would sail in shooting range of an enemy fort (1st, 2nd and maybe 3rd rates might have stood a chance against small towers but not agains forts i‘d say).

In the real world, no wooden ship could survive within 1.5-2 miles of a land battery.   Heated shot...

[IndianaGeoff]

4 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Back to the era with no missions ? Without production buildings ? No outposts ? Without teleports ? A third of the ships models we have today ? 

I guess the 5 / 2 / 1 duras would payoff the absence of those, right ?

Do not deny that progress is visible in the last 2,5 years, let alone the closed pre-EA development.

We shall always disagree with many things implemented, I know I do.

.

 

Nobody does trade missions.  Production buildings? meh.  Just another way to sell out of a port.  Outposts?  I remember those in the 5 dura days.  Teleport to capital was there ages ago.  More ships but little reason to sail most of them.  Now the meta will change when models are tweaked, but it quickly settles down to a new/same meta.

Fact is, the game was more playable in the 5 dura, crappy port battle flag era than today.  More players, new players every night, people sticking with it action most nights that mattered to players, nations and clans. Clans growing, weak nations being able to do things, big nations beating on each other.  Yea (on global) you had the 2 v 1 big nation alliance, but over months it shifted back and forth.  Multiple people playing on Twitch (how I decided to get the game).

You are not moving forward when you drop in a mechanic (missions) and then make it completely useless and uninteresting.  You are not moving forward when you abandon what could be nightly mechanics for conflict (shipwrecks, PvP battle zones with rewards et al).  The odds of logging in and seeing a useful shipwreck is so low, nobody "plans" for it.   Admins (in game)used to play with the players, I did not see that for months as most of them quit playing.  The death of nations has not been good for the game.  Face it nationalism is huge for this and any game.

The game has devolved into one lame mechanic that is not working.  If the dev team thinks they are making progress, they are crazy.  They are acting like ADHD teenagers high on Mountain Dew spinning out some new plan that just has to work.  When it does not, they don't reflect back on past successes and just come up with some new master plan of questionable design.  Often so bad they don't even run it in front of the community for critique before loading it into the game.

You have highlighed a vision for the game.  I''ll give you that.  It is a vision.  It is bold.  It will also fail so hard as a commercial success.

This is a slow game.  Everything in it takes time.  Therefore the game has to have mutiple, useful slow mechanics.  Thus far, all we see are mechanics to quickly gank people outside national ports.  That may not have been the intention, but it is the result.

[Hethwill]

OVerall a good writing with the exception of the judgemental tone towards GL  

What I liked most back then was the no teleports, only the one back to capital which one had to keep at hand for emergencies.

Funny how there were way more traders sailing around due to hoarding of resources in outposts, but only the contracted quantities which had to be picked up and sailed back

 

[IndianaGeoff]

3 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

OVerall a good writing with the exception of the judgemental tone towards GL  

What I liked most back then was the no teleports, only the one back to capital which one had to keep at hand for emergencies.

Funny how there were way more traders sailing around due to hoarding of resources in outposts, but only the contracted quantities which had to be picked up and sailed back

 

Sorry for the judgmental tone.  I want the game to be the game that I loved playing so bad.  I do love the game and want it to work.  The devs need to keep working on current stuff and then go back and really look at what did and did not work in the past.  The need to map out a new player development with multiple paths (fight only, trade, craft) of success.  Yes, everyone has to fight, but let the guy who wants to be rich be rich.  The guy who wants to be a crafting mavin, be a crating mavin.  And yes, the combat only guy can do so.  And when they map out that, they need to determine how long they want a player to play to reach a high level in each path (realistic grind for a 1 hour a night player).  Then grab those old mechanics that were popular and test new ways to get it in game.

This game needs more than a tutorial and a UI.

For example, I am a person who loves to build a credible trading network so that I can support a crafting bug.  I only sail what I make.  After I make it, I used it to support my nation/clan in it's activities.  I will actively defend my coasts if I can.  I mostly sail in teams, I don't like solo PvP.  Probably because I am not that good at it, but mostly because I get no joy ganking people or getting sunk trying to.  I will never sail around looking for easy prey to collect marks to build big ships.  Never.  I have done it.  I don't enjoy it.

Right now, for various reasons, even though I have warehouses full of craft goods, upgrades and maxxed crafting stations... I see no reason to log in.

[Slim McSauce]

This patch reminded me there is still no motivation to pvp aside from marks. Very little flow of strategic influence (besides ports), nothing translates to the map therefore no information can be gathered on the "state of the war" so to speak. It's all just quiet ambiance with the only tone coming from ports and the combat news clerk.

I understand this is a sandbox but it's literally like all we have is a box with sand in it, no toys at all.

I'll still log on occasionally but until ow holds itself up I just don't have the time or energy to make pvp what it's suppose to be, constantly filling in the gaps as the player in lack of any supporting mechanics.

[Angus MacDuff]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 11:51 AM, Hethwill said:

Indeed ! And the game progressed a lot, thankfully.

That's why the entire "Welcome Newcomer!" Tutorial system, that a newcomer can play in single player, without interference, and ranking up to Master & Commander and rewards was introduced - one of the most requested feature was a tutorial.

 

And as we now see, no newcomer can pass that final exam

[AlexAdown]

18 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

And as we now see, no newcomer can pass that final exam

A lot of us vets can't pass it either.

[Hethwill]

40 minutes ago, Oberon74 said:

And as we now see, no newcomer can pass that final exam

I know for certain this is not true.

 

21 minutes ago, AlexAdown said:

A lot of us vets can't pass it either.

Oh, I believe this to be very true *chuckles*

[Angus MacDuff]

36 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I know for certain this is not true.

 

If you know for a fact that a newcomer to this game has passed the final without any help (other than the tutorial), then they at the top 1% of gamers