Patch 14: Part 3 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[TheLoneWolf]

34 minutes ago, admin said:

speedometer does not know if it is sideforce or not 
so if your forward speed changes from -0.1 to +0.1 but you also have side force of 2 at the same time speedometer will show a change of -2.1 to 2.1 because the center mass moves both forward and to the side (0.2 forwards and 2 to the side)

so its not weird, it shows true speed of the center mass compared to its old position. Of course proper way is to then have 2 speedometers like on planes. But honestly the speed indicator should be removed for realism (real age of sail captains could only judge speed approximately and rely on visual clues, like rope with knots)

 

ps beached is a realistic but brutal outcome of leeway. Some captains will see it sooner than later. If you have a strong leeway ship and wind blows towards land in instance - you are a goner.

I presume you are assuming a leeway force of 2 that instantaneously changes from side to side with a force of 2.  Leeway is defined as the amount of drift motion to leeward of an object floating in the water caused by the component of the wind vector that is perpendicular to the object’s forward motion.  So if I am at 90 degrees to wind, leeway force should not move back and forth +2 -2.  It should always be exerted on the same side of my ship.  The wind direction does not follow my hull.  So this needs to be addressed.  Even if I was straight downwind, the area of my hull exposed to wind would be very small, so leeway effect would be very small as well.  Right now leeway is pushing ship 2 knots in direction of wind irrespective of ship heading.  It is a bit intense and unrealistic.  What is more unrealistic is that the leeway force instantaneously switches to opposite side back and forth.  It should not be ship speed plus leeway but be dependent on wind direction and area of hull exposed to wind.

Also, pls do something about ai being drawn like magnets to beach.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by TheLoneWolf

[admin]

21 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

I presume you are assuming a leeway force of 2 that instantaneously changes from side to side with a force of 2.  Leeway is defined as the amount of drift motion to leeward of an object floating in the water caused by the component of the wind vector that is perpendicular to the object’s forward motion.  So if I am at 90 degrees to wind, leeway force should not move back and forth +2 -2.  It should always be exerted on the same side of my ship.  The wind direction does not follow my hull.  So this needs to be addressed.  Even if I was straight downwind, the area of my hull exposed to wind would be very small, so leeway effect would be very small as well.  Right now leeway is pushing ship 2 knots in direction of wind irrespective of ship heading.  It is a bit intense and unrealistic.

 

 

read first - comment second. You have not read my post carefully and jump to commenting without understanding

IT DOES NOT MOVE BACK AND FORWARD

Read my post again please

We are not assuming anything. 2 was just given as an example of a ship drifting 2 knots to the right or left without any forward or backward movement.
There is no jump of the ship. There is a jump of numbers speedometer because its not only the forward force on the spedometer any more (we did not have leeway before)

Side force is to the left it stays to the left and does not move back and forth.

Again the example

you have no forward movement but you have some side force - lets say its 2 knots. Speedometer will show 2 knots because ship center mass moves at this speed.
If you add minor 0.1 movement forward (changed yard  angle) you will have 2.1 on speedometer -  still moving 2 to the left and 0.1 backward
If you changed that yard angle a bit and got -0.1 movement backward you will have -2.1 on speedometer - still moving 2 to the left and -0.1 backward

remember that speedometer is a RESULT - not an INPUT. it just shows change of centerpoint compared to old position. So on the plane which has 2 dimensions it jumps from -2.1 to 2.1 because  forward change has + and minus and side change (modul) has not and is not separated so thats why you see this jump (the ship moves ok and does not jump from 2 to -2 at all.

We just need to remove side force from speedometer (showing side speed and forward speed separately like on planes) or to not confuse players or just remove speedometer.

Meanwhile just ignore this jumps and look at the ship and adust rudder based on how ship moves if the speedometer is confusing. 

[admin]

21 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

 Right now leeway is pushing ship 2 knots in direction of wind irrespective of ship heading.  It is a bit intense and unrealistic.  What is more unrealistic is that the leeway force instantaneously switches to opposite side back and forth.  It should not be ship speed plus leeway but be dependent on wind direction and area of hull exposed to wind.

 

 

it does not! Who told you that?

Leeway (side force) in game depends on wind power in sails which in turn depends on

1) sail damage
2) yard position
3) sail composition (more square sails you will have different drift and max drift angle)
4) mast damage
5) hull size
6) and of course wind angle
 

Please don't make statements that do not correspond to facts, if you continue i will just remove you from the forum because you are confusing yourself first and then start confusing others by making made up statements that leeway is always 2 and does not depend on anything.

[TheLoneWolf]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

read first comment second. You have not read my post carefully and jump to commenting without understanding

IT DOES NOT MOVE BACK AND FORWARD

Read my post again

There is no jump of the ship. But there is a jump of numbers speedometer because its not only the forward force on the spedometer any more (we did not have leeway before)

side force is to the left it stays to the left. you have no forward movement. Speedometer will show 2 knots
If you have minor 0.1 movement forward (changed yard  angle) you will have 2.1 on speedometer -  still moving 2 to the left and 0.1 backward
If you changed that yard angle a bit and got -0.1 movement backward you will have -2.1 on speedometer - still moving 2 to the left and -0.1 backward

remember that speedometer is a RESULT - not an INPUT. it just shows change of centerpoint compared to old position. So on the plane which has 2 dimensions it jumps from -2.1 to 2.1 because  forward change has + and minus and side change has not and is not separated so thats why you see this jump (the ship moves ok and does not jump from 2 to -2 at all.

We just need to remove side force from speedometer to not confuse players or just remove speedometer.

Meanwhile just ignore this jumps and look at the ship and adust rudder based on how ship moves if the speedometer is confusing. 

Please try with ship stuck on beach to see strange results.  I try to tack and basically I go from -1 or more to +1 or more for slight change.  Also it makes no sense since I sometimes end up going negative speed when facing downwind which should be impossible.  Also, I get a +- 1 kn or more for a very slight variation 2-3 degrees.  I believe your calculations do not take ship hull exposed to wind into account, it would be the only reason and may explain why at 90 degrees I can get a plus or minus depending what side of 90 I swing to. 

 

Also, is the speedometer a vector with long axis of ship and showing resulting force at front of ship?

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by TheLoneWolf

[TheLoneWolf]

1 minute ago, admin said:

it does not! Who told you that?

Leeway (side force) in game depends on wind power in sails which in turn depends on

1) sail damage
2) yard position
3) sail composition (more square sails you will have different drift and max drift angle)
4) mast damage
5) hull size
6) and of course wind angle
 

Please don't make statements that do not correspond to facts, if you continue i will just remove you from the forum because you are confusing yourself first and then start confusing others by making false statements that leeway is always 2 and does not depend on anything.

I am just going from your example.  If I am incorrect then correct me.  Banning me from forums would be a bit extreme no? BTW have you tried your ship when stuck on beach. If not try it and try to make sense of what is happening

[PenguPirate]

1 minute ago, admin said:

it does not! Who told you that?

Leeway (side force) in game depends on wind power in sails which in turn depends on

1) sail damage
2) yard position
3) sail composition (more square sails you will have different drift and max drift angle)
4) mast damage
5) hull size
6) and of course wind angle
 

Please don't make statements that do not correspond to facts, if you continue i will just remove you from the forum because you are confusing yourself first and then start confusing others by making false statements that leeway is always 2 and does not depend on anything.

@admin would longer ships (longer waterlength) suffer less leeway from the counteracting force?

[Kubrat]

I spent an hour capturing a trader brig, seems like the chain shot mechanics have been made more realistic as well, is that right?

Also basic cutter simply could not stern barge it at 50% sails. Presume this is the improved rudder?

This is not a complaint, just interested in understanding if it is expected. (in the end I dis-masted him).

TY again for the Christmas gifts.

 

 

[jodgi]

37 minutes ago, maturin said:

Then everything will be complete and glorious.

This warms the heart. It's been a while since we've seen such a happy maturin.

[Sella]

1 hour ago, admin said:

. But honestly the speed indicator should be removed for realism (real age of sail captains could only judge speed approximately and rely on visual clues, like rope with knots)

 

It would be cool if you could measure your speed with the rope with knots. Maybe something like with repairs where it has a cooldown and needs some time to be measured

[admin]

35 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

I am just going from your example.  If I am incorrect then correct me.  Banning me from forums would be a bit extreme no? BTW have you tried your ship when stuck on beach. If not try it and try to make sense of what is happening

All statements in your post were incorrect. Sail power and leeway force does not jump back and forth and it is calculated properly taking into account hundreds of parameters. 

Here is an example of our Rig individual parts and parameters (which is used in sailing model and damage model calculations)


When you start posting statements which will confuse others stating things completely opposite from truth we would have to protect ourselves. Please avoid.

The situation is simple
Speedometer does not know how to work with side force. Its like it is playing checkers and game plays 3 dimensional chess. It can only count into 1 dimension. We added a multiple new dimensions (forward back and to any side over 360 degree plane)  to a 1 dimensional speedometer (forward/back)

[maturin]

23 minutes ago, jonnysweden said:

Right now leeway is pushing ship 2 knots in direction of wind irrespective of ship heading. 

 

ship does not have leeway when sailing downwind for example despite your trying to push this shit to confused users by using the word irrespective. Also you leeway cannot push ship in direction of wind. Its not how wind works in game.

Are you so sure of that?

This is an image of an LGV making considerable leeway on a broad reach course. Look at the wake for starters. What you can't tell is that I zoomed in as far as possible, then pressed Home to freeze the camera in place. The ship is sagging off to starboard at a considerable rate.

https://imgur.com/lUED7LG

The existence of leeway is proved by the fact that you can see the ship's port side. The masts are no longer in line.

I neglected to get an aerial shot of the wake, when on this point of sail. However, the angle of the wake suggests a similar amount of leeway, compared to a ship sailing close-hauled. I have filed an F11 report concerning this.

Close-hauled comparison: https://imgur.com/XwV4qmP

[PenguPirate]

26 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

It would be cool if you could measure your speed with the rope with knots. Maybe something like with repairs where it has a cooldown and needs some time to be measured

I fail to see the need for cooldown just to measure your own speed. Multiple lines, multiple group casting lines.

[maturin]

43 minutes ago, PenguPirate said:

@admin would longer ships (longer waterlength) suffer less leeway from the counteracting force?

Not necessarily. It is quite easy to build a short frigate that exhibits minimal leeway, or a long frigate that makes considerable leeway.

For instance, a short, weatherly British frigate compared to a longer French frigate with shallow draft and hollow lines in the bow.

It's a complicated topic, relating to the cross-section area of the hull/keel and the ability of the hull to move through the water efficiently without creating eddies and drag.

[PenguPirate]

Going by friction produces by the Hull and the water, there should be some resistance which would be the product of the area working against the water and its speed. While what you say about real world is true, what I am asking is whether any counteracting force is considered for the game's engine?

[admin]

20 minutes ago, maturin said:

Are you so sure of that?

This is an image of an LGV making considerable leeway on a broad reach course. Look at the wake for starters. What you can't tell is that I zoomed in as far as possible, then pressed Home to freeze the camera in place. The ship is sagging off to starboard at a considerable rate.

https://imgur.com/a/uSNGj

OP said that the force is the same irrespective of the direction, but its not true you don't have leeway when wind is from stern for example (as commenter pointed out). You also don't have leeway on inertia if you depower all sails immediately (for example by destroying all masts at the same time), leeway depends on how wind interacts with ship sail plan its relationship with the hull (for example angle of sails to hull)

• you are not downwind on this screen. You don't have leeway with wind into stern. You to the contrary are sailing at the point where the leeway is usually at max for LGV. Leeway does not exist (or minimal only at 180) after that it starts going up and peaks when sail power vector to hull increases to max (at the point where keel is no longer capable to convert wind force to speed and starts leaking it to leeway).
• you are on battle sails (so keel has less resistance as your speed is lower) so your hull itself starts adding to sideforce and wind/sail power is not counteracted by keel fully - thus leeway increases
• the ship is sagging because you have more sail on the front mast than stern mast which is not fully counteracted by keel (again due to lower speed), effect of sail influence on side force is less pronounced at high speeds. Brigs will sag into opposite direction due to more sails on backward masts.
• Mast position is important (in relation to the center)

You will sag even more at lower speed. But you won't see much leeway downwind and will see a lot of it at the point where the combination of sail power for your ship is max (depends on the sail plan)
 

[PenguPirate]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

All statements in your post were incorrect. Sail power and leeway force does not jump back and forth and it is calculated properly taking into account hundreds of parameters. 

Here is an example of our Rig individual parts and parameters (which is used in sailing model and damage model calculations)


When you start posting statements which will confuse others stating things completely opposite from truth we would have to protect ourselves. Please avoid.

The situation is simple
Speedometer does not know how to work with side force. Its like it is playing checkers and game plays 3 dimensional chess. It can only count into 1 dimension. We added a multiple new dimensions (forward back and to any side over 360 degree plane)  to a 1 dimensional speedometer (forward/back)

@admin it's been a while since the days that I use vectors and vectors arithmetic, but wouldn't you be able to work out its direction, and given the ship's bearing be able to give us the offset from the two?

[admin]

3 minutes ago, PenguPirate said:

@admin it's been a while since the days that I use vectors and vectors arithmetic, but wouldn't you be able to work out its direction, and given the ship's bearing be able to give us the offset from the two?

The thing is that players don't need to know side force so we probably just have to remove it from the speed visualization. (like we don't show speed of bow turning or stern turning).

Or they need to know side force separately (like pilots need to know vertical speed separately)

[PenguPirate]

Just now, admin said:

The thing is that players don't need to know side force so we probably just have to remove it from the speed visualization. (like we don't show speed of bow turning or stern turning).

Or they need to know side force separately (like pilots need to know vertical speed separately)

Give us both speed please. Thank you.

[TheLoneWolf]

19 minutes ago, admin said:

All statements in your post were incorrect. Sail power and leeway force does not jump back and forth and it is calculated properly taking into account hundreds of parameters. 

Here is an example of our Rig individual parts and parameters (which is used in sailing model and damage model calculations)


When you start posting statements which will confuse others stating things completely opposite from truth we would have to protect ourselves. Please avoid.

The situation is simple
Speedometer does not know how to work with side force. Its like it is playing checkers and game plays 3 dimensional chess. It can only count into 1 dimension. We added a multiple new dimensions (forward back and to any side over 360 degree plane)  to a 1 dimensional speedometer (forward/back)

I thank you for the explanations and corrections.  If my understanding is correct then yes, the speedometer is misleading and it may be best to only indicate a single direction (ie. forward direction and speed) although this may not be entirely accurate.

[admin]

24 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

I thank you for the explanations and corrections.  If my understanding is correct then yes, the speedometer is misleading and it may be best to only indicate a single direction (ie. forward direction and speed) although this may not be entirely accurate.

i have even easier explanation of this bug with the speedometer
imagine a helicopter flying 0 kmh forward (forward force)
but flying 3km h upwards (side force)

our speedometer tries to visualize it in one number
when helicopter, still flying up, moves 10 m forward from the center point it shows 3.01 positive speed. it is 3.01kmh from the center point)
when helicopter, still flying up moves 10 m backwards from the old center point it shows -3.01 negative speed. it is still 3.01 but it shows negative because its opposite direction from the old center point. From the old point it is an opposite direction and distance passed by the helicopter is 3+/-01.

• If you look at the helicopter form above it only moved 10m forward and 10 back (old speedometer)
• but it also flew 3km up which speedometer does not know how to show so it shows it as positive or negative depending on change of direction from the starting point
• as a result speedometer shows 3.01 when helicopter flies 10m forward while moving up 3km/h up and shows -3.01when it moves 10m back. because its the distance passed in 2 dimensions. 

[Pada]

Congratz on the new sailing model. Sailing feels very good now, good job well done. o7

[maturin]

55 minutes ago, admin said:

OP said that the force is the same irrespective of the direction, but its not true you don't have leeway when wind is from stern for example (as commenter pointed out). You also don't have leeway on inertia if you depower all sails immediately (for example by destroying all masts at the same time), leeway depends on how wind interacts with ship sail plan its relationship with the hull (for example angle of sails to hull)

• you are not downwind on this screen. You don't have leeway with wind into stern. You to the contrary are sailing at the point where the leeway is usually at max for LGV. Leeway does not exist (or minimal only at 180) after that it starts going up and peaks when sail power vector to hull increases to max (at the point where keel is no longer capable to convert wind force to speed and starts leaking it to leeway).
• you are on battle sails (so keel has less resistance as your speed is lower) so your hull itself starts adding to sideforce and wind/sail power is not counteracted by keel fully - thus leeway increases
• the ship is sagging because you have more sail on the front mast than stern mast which is not fully counteracted by keel (again due to lower speed), effect of sail influence on side force is less pronounced at high speeds. Brigs will sag into opposite direction due to more sails on backward masts.
• Mast position is important (in relation to the center)

You will sag even more at lower speed. But you won't see much leeway downwind and will see a lot of it at the point where the combination of sail power for your ship is max (depends on the sail plan)
 

Great, I'm happy to understand how the game calculates leeway.

You're simulation is missing one big thing however:

Quote

With the wind abaft of the beam, leeway should be negligible -little or no leeway should be expected sailing downwind in moderate conditions.

http://www.learntocruise.ca/downloads/leeway.pdf

Basically, when you are sailing at a broad reach, the sideforce of the sails is converted completely into forward force. This is because the hull goes through the water forward, more easily than sideways. The difference between the force vectors of the sails and the hull's momentum are so close, that they become equal.

If you hit a nail with a hammer just a little crooked, the nail still goes down. It ignores the misalignment of the hammerblow, because it is very small.

Basically you could turn off leeway for wind angles between 180 and 100, and ship speeds over 3 kts.

Leeway is a problem for close-hauled sailing, primarily.

 

Quote

the ship is sagging because you have more sail on the front mast than stern mast which is not fully counteracted by keel (again due to lower speed), effect of sail influence on side force is less pronounced at high speeds. Brigs will sag into opposite direction due to more sails on backward masts.

I was on autoskipper, so the ship's bow was always pointing in the exact same direction. You're not saying that brigs will sag towards the wind, are you?

 

Quote

You also don't have leeway on inertia if you depower all sails immediately (for example by destroying all masts at the same time)

Any chance we can fix this? A dismasted ship should still drift very slowly.

[Landsman]

9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Ok I made one and put paint on it.....

Just me or does the default look better? Any paint job is good of course but im not really digging this one...

[GrubbyZebra]

6 hours ago, maturin said:

Why not? I see no problem and no difference from how it is in reality? If you make 10 degrees of leeway and need to hit a mark 10 miles distant, you can do some basic trigonometry and find the right course.

 

Most real ships in proper trim are 'ardent' and carry weather helm. Being slack and wanting to fall off is an undesirable trait, and such lee helm is ideally counteracted by the spanker.

If you need to sail in a straight line in this game, you use autoskipper. It's only when you are trying to hold position using your yards that this aspect of rudder control becomes an issue. I find that full left/right rudder is just fine for controlling rotation at low speeds, even if you can't ever find equilibrium. Real ships also struggle to maintain perfect control.

And yet, with autosails on and neutral rudder (and full sails), I left a ship sailing 45 deg into the wind for 5 min and came back to find my indefatigable on a broad reach. 

[hiclipucli]

when we got the new ship ?