Patch 13: Variability in port battles, epic events, swivel guns

[admin]

1 minute ago, Quineloe said:

That's funny, which port has a BR limit of 750?

Why do you ask about the limit. The concern is 25 lynxes winning against 5 santisimas 5 third rates and 5 frigates. 
Thus lets wait until someone captures cartagena with 25 cutters?

[Quineloe]

Just now, admin said:

Why do you ask about the limit. The concern is 25 lynxes winning against 5 santisimas 5 third rates and 5 frigates. 
Thus lets wait until someone captures cartagena with 25 cutters?

*Even* BR, the bigger number of ships wins in Port battles. Happy now? =[

 

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

*Even* BR, the bigger number of ships wins in Port battles. Happy now? =[

 

Thats what has to be proven. At the moment its just an assumption.

[randommexi]

small patch today, any notes on it?

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

*Even* BR, the bigger number of ships wins in Port battles. Happy now? =[

 

 You are saying that 25 lynxes will win against smaller but heavy mixed fleet? If this is true lets see that port battle happen

[Simon Cadete]

6 minutes ago, admin said:

Why do you ask about the limit. The concern is 25 lynxes winning against 5 santisimas 5 third rates and 5 frigates. 
Thus lets wait until someone captures cartagena with 25 cutters?

You’ll have to wait until you allow for that to happen. Last time I checked, line ships couldn’t fight in shallow port battles and vice versa.

My only concern is the 25 first rates screening these smaller port battle fleets. It makes the battle group mechanic obsolete.

I play in the global server so port battles isn’t really a thing anymore (taking neutral ports doesn’t count)

[Quineloe]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

 You are saying that 25 lynxes will win against smaller but heavy mixed fleet? If this is true lets see that port battle happen

Yeah I'm saying 25 Lynx will win against 7 Mercury in a port battle. The point is moot, though, because there's no 500 BR Limit on any port.  They'll even win through combat, not through circles, because their sheer number will wear the Mercuries down.

We've already seen one of these battles @z4ys at Grand Anse, where the larger number of ships overwhelmed the heavier Bucentaures.

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

Wrong. The best balance of ships wins the PB.

You are both wrong. The best captains win any battle.

[Malachy]

7 minutes ago, Graf Bernadotte said:

It's a discussion about game mechanic not about individual skills. To test game mechanic the individual skill has to be similar.

That's never going to happen. There are maybe 50 good players on either server. Another hundred above average players and the rest are mediocre at best. Getting a battle with a similar mix of good to mediocre players on both sides is virtually impossible. The side with the greatest number of good captains will always have better chances ignore winning than the side with more mediocre captains, despite the ship types used. For example, I've sunk about 50 wasa in my Connie. Before this patch everyone said wasa was way overpowered,?yada yada. An Overpowered ship doesn't make a mediocre player better. Numbers also do not mean an automatic win either. I've fought dozens of battles just me and 1 other 4th rate and won against half a dozen 5ths.its all skill and tactics, the ships mean very little.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Malachy

[Fargo]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

we are still waiting for 25 lynxes to win against a heavy mixed fleet.

People always using the best possible 25 ships is not diversity, thats the point.

You dont seem to understand what diversity means. Its about meaningful gameplay and decisionmaking. Making all ships the same, and magically restricting people to use the most powerful ships isnt improving anything, because people still dont have to make decisions. Youre sailing a weaker ship than others, because BR told you to do so, not because this ship has any meaning or specific use.

Different fleet compositions beeing viable would lead to diversity, what requires different tactics or countermeasures to be balanced. Imagine a few mortar brigs could counter a full first rate fleet, fast interceptors would become meaningful. Mortars counter line ship fleets, mixed fleets counter mortars, first rates counter everything without mortars. There wouldnt be "the best fleet", the most effective fleet composition would depend on the meta. You have to decide how much you want to tech against something, overall weakening your fleet.

7 minutes ago, rediii said:

Circles generate points too sloe with new system. Atm its more of a "who needs to act and who needs to react" mechanic.

So fleets are simply going to consist of ships with best value/BR not leading to diversity either. Then it could actually work because mortar brigs might be OP for 75(?!) BR. 

Im not into those circle mechanics, but if winning by circles is not balanced its going to be one extreme or the other. 

 

I dont have to point out again that this all, working or not, heavily contradicts player freedom and everything a sandbox stands for.

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

 

So far all PBs have been won with the side that had more ships, check screenshots.

With the new BR limits?

[Quineloe]

Yes, as I have already told you as well.

[Fargo]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

You will never have real mixed fleets but it would get better if BR is balanced and says something about real combat ability. When BR is balanced people could just take the ship they want to sail.

Sure, just that some people might have to use less powerful/worse ships than others. I guess people still want to use the largest ship possible. Why should i decide to sail a frigate in a PB when there is no specific use for it, its just a weaker ship. For the battle it wouldnt matter, but for me it means im less important, i sink faster and im likely to earn less rewards. 

[Bubba Smith]

On PvE, I can't seem to exchange Combat marks for PvP marks, is there a reason for that? 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Buba Smith

[Pada]

2 hours ago, Buba Smith said:

On PvE, I can't seem to exchange Combat marks for PvP marks, is there a reason for that? 

Maybe because you're on the PVE server?

[Lord Vicious]

FUnny how you implemented pretty much all i suggested in last year.

 

Clan politics for pirates, clan ownership of ports, taxes for clans.   Port battle with BR.   Raid group for PB  etc.  Problem is How you did:    the br system is a mess, ppl need to be able to work with fixed amount of br to "setup" doctrines, cant attack 20 ports with different BR adapting the fleet to the moment.

 

With a br system  circle have no more reason to exist, it lost any sense whatsoever unless:   instead ship/numbers, you make the BR count for  capturing it.  Since it not have sense that a frig can block a circle to be captured from a firstrate

also Br for ships need to be re-evaluated and rebalance like 4th rates have too low br compared to their performance

 

 

Capital ports should have 12k br    (enought for field many firstrates  no more then 15-16 but not full 25 , forcing composition with 3rd 2nd 4th etc. )

Normal deep ports:    6500   br              (thx to new Corrected BR of 350 for 4th rates it force ppl to compose  since 20 4th = 7k , living space for frigs etc)

Shallows :    1650/1700   br                            (thx to new br, that means 20/22 heavy rattlesnake top , that force mixed composition for fit in , even 25 mercury comp is out since go over 1700 br expecial if you have a mortar)

 

BR MODIFICATIONS NEED:

The non sense of a conny having the same BR of an aga is just lol

my suggestions:     With motivations  

 

L Ocean    700          (old 625, it have no sense that ocean have less then santi when is superior in every sense)

Santissima 650        (same as before)    

Victory 650                (old 600, it need to be same of santi since performance are really similar.)

Bucentaure    500      (old 450, is obviously better then pavel)
St Pavel    470            (+20)

Bellona    420             (+20 for distance it from wasa)

Wasa     380                  (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate , also ppl made me notice wasa is stronger then aga)

Agamemnon    350      (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate)
Ingermanland    320    (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)
Wapen     300               (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)

Constitution    270      ( old 250,  now it have the correct br compared to 4th rates)
Indefatigable    250     
Trincomalee    230       (old 225 )

Endymion    210         (old 225 , is slightly less then a Trincomalee)
Essex    200                (old 180 )
Pirate Frigate    190   (old 180)
Belle Poule    180
Frigate    170
Hermione    160           (old 140)
Surprise    150              (old 140)
Renommee    120         (old 110)
Cerberus    110             (old 100)
Niagara    100
Mortar Brig    75
Mercury    70
Rattlesnake Heavy    80  (old 70, is no way rattle heavy is equal to a mercury)
Navy Brig    70
Snow    60                           (old 50, was too low )
Prince de Neufchatel    50
Brig    50
Pickle    40
Privateer    30
Cutter    30
Lynx    20

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[pietjenoob]

On 10/31/2017 at 10:54 AM, admin said:

don't get attached to the numbers.
Large ports (like cartagena or san juan or santo domingo) can have their numbers increased during any maintenance.
Lets discuss the limits - for example not letting cutters and lynxes into deep water port battles. 

Cartagena/Havana/San Juan/Santo domingo could definitely be increased. Some shallow ports decreased. Lets talk specifics. 

Historical note.
Trafalgar (lineships vs lineships) is still possible during screening.
But remember that Trafalgar had only 3 1st rates on the british side and 4 on the French/Spanish side. 7th first rates participated in trafalgar.

 

ps. can someone please calculate approximate BR for trafalgar if possible?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Battle_of_Trafalgar

 

Just did all the numbers..... it was some figuring out and stuff and this is still a approximation for a 25 'big' fleet the BR should be around 9200 and 9600, based on the aprox ship BR on Trafalgar. The average on the British side is 368 BR and the Franco Spanish is around 384. 

Yes, I used some fictional BR but that is more a combination of Broadside weight and gun count, that has to do with the lack of 74's missing a 36 pdr variant, to be more realistic.

Note that most of the ships had a mixed load-out so that might be not the true BR but the best i could do. It might also contain some wrong numbers and/or personal preference

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iDlQipPjTazJlEI4FUi-lqpsLmDWigcjOGjNsYdYFWI/edit?usp=sharing my sheet for people who want to use it. 

This is the best i got

[Lord Vicious]

15 minutes ago, pietjenoob said:

Just did all the numbers..... it was some figuring out and stuff and this is still a approximation for a 25 'big' fleet the BR should be around 9200 and 9600, based on the aprox ship BR on Trafalgar. The average on the British side is 368 BR and the Franco Spanish is around 384. 

Yes, I used some fictional BR but that is more a combination of Broadside weight and gun count, that has to do with the lack of 74's missing a 36 pdr variant, to be more realistic.

Note that most of the ships had a mixed load-out so that might be not the true BR but the best i could do. It might also contain some wrong numbers and/or personal preference

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iDlQipPjTazJlEI4FUi-lqpsLmDWigcjOGjNsYdYFWI/edit?usp=sharing my sheet for people who want to use it. 

This is the best i got

Trafalgar have nothing to do with this game  ffs

There is ships in this game, that simply by hp/tickness cannons are vastly superior/inferior to  how they where in history.        ,  In real life a frig could not hold a single volley from a victory at 100yard in this game can.  So stop base   game balancement regards BR on history.

 

The current br is a mess up, where a conny have 250 as an agamennon.       OR where an ocean have less then a santi LOL .        or wappen-wasa-aga-inger are all considered the same, where all we know how an inger or a wappen have 0 CHANCE vs an aga

[Corona Lisa]

1 hour ago, Lord Vicious said:

The current br is a mess up, where a conny have 250 as an agamennon.       OR where an ocean have less then a santi LOL .        or wappen-wasa-aga-inger are all considered the same, where all we know how an inger or a wappen have 0 CHANCE vs an aga

Try the Wasa, Agga is a joke compared to it

32pd cannons, 6 front chaser, 4 at the back. Same BR as Consti.

[Jesters-Ink]

6 hours ago, Pada said:

Maybe because you're on the PVE server?

Doesn't work on any server at the moment.

[Lord Vicious]

5 hours ago, Intrepido said:

In fact you are wrong setting the wasa with the same BR of an agamenon. It should be more closer to the BR of a Bellona. Maybe 380.

Maybe you right i didnt got time to play it, but see we can easly adapt ships strenght to br, based on in game performance not historical bullshit.   But for sure a conny not perform like an aga so the current 250 br for both is a nonsense

[Lord Vicious]

5 hours ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Try the Wasa, Agga is a joke compared to it

32pd cannons, 6 front chaser, 4 at the back. Same BR as Consti.

A sort of bellona? what about tickness/hp etc? so probably a good br should be 380? like  intrepido suggested?

[Lord Vicious]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

Just try it. You will see how insanely op the wasa is compared to other 4th rates.

And ofc, current connie is not a challenge for an agamenon.

I added some + br for bellona/pavel then,  or they are too near to wasa if br go to 380, would make no sense to use a wasa over a bellona.

so new suggestion is

 

wasa 380

bellona 420

pavel 470

 

BR MODIFICATIONS NEED:

The non sense of a conny having the same BR of an aga is just lol

my suggestions:     With motivations  

 

L Ocean    700          (old 625, it have no sense that ocean have less then santi when is superior in every sense)

Santissima 650        (same as before)    

Victory 650                (old 600, it need to be same of santi since performance are really similar.)

Bucentaure    500      (old 450, is obviously better then pavel)
St Pavel    470            (+20)

Bellona    420             (+20 for distance it from wasa)

Wasa     380                  (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate , also ppl made me notice wasa is stronger then aga)

Agamemnon    350      (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate)
Ingermanland    320    (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)
Wapen     300               (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)

Constitution    270      ( old 250,  now it have the correct br compared to 4th rates)
Indefatigable    250     
Trincomalee    230       (old 225 )

Endymion    210         (old 225 , is slightly less then a Trincomalee)
Essex    200                (old 180 )
Pirate Frigate    190   (old 180)
Belle Poule    180
Frigate    170
Hermione    160           (old 140)
Surprise    150              (old 140)
Renommee    120         (old 110)
Cerberus    110             (old 100)
Niagara    100
Mortar Brig    75
Mercury    70
Rattlesnake Heavy    80  (old 70, is no way rattle heavy is equal to a mercury)
Navy Brig    70
Snow    60                           (old 50, was too low )
Prince de Neufchatel    50
Brig    50
Pickle    40
Privateer    30
Cutter    30
Lynx    20

Edited November 2, 2017 by Lord Vicious

[Haskes]

What about making BR penalties,
1 vic 600br, next vic will make the BR grow, lets say 20% which leads us to 1440BR for 2 vics?
3 vics would stack penalties making 840br/HMS Victory, 2520BR.
Would anyone want more vics at this point in one Battle?
Just a thought,

Captains.

[Jesters-Ink]

Could do what some other games do, set slots for PB's first come first served.

Set number of ships n types available, but it kind of locks out the variety.

So like 3 1st, 3 3rds, 4 4ths and so on, mix it up for different ports and all that. 

Lets face it, 24 x 1st per side is getting a little old, still fun, but old all the same.