Addressing the revenge fleet vs ganking, invisibiliy and the god's speed.

[Koltes]

The battle group and tag circle around defender are the perfect mechanics!!! Nothing needs to be changed there.

However, we still have number of issues on hand on similar matters relating to OW ROE and tagging mechanics.

• NO Invisibility and no speed buff caused revenge fleets chasing fast ship, re-tagging after battles and not letting them go for a long period of time - BAD
• 30 Secs invisibility and the God's speed buff allows gankers to permanently harass enemy waters with impunity - BAD

We are going from one extreme here to another.
 

ROE should be fair and follow same principal - faster ships should be able to get away while slower ships should be caught, while player skills could still save them.

The question is how?
The answer is through out altered tagging and what happens inside the battle.

1. Tagging is changed so you can only initiate tag if target is in front of your ship (not behind), thus solves an issue of faster ships not being able to catch slower ships due to defensive tags leading to repeated tagging battle after battle. Maybe closest distance limit circle added that even if you drop on top of the target you still some distance away;




2. Exiting battle does NOT grant you invisibility and god's speed buff automatically - you have to "earn it" in the battle first;

3. To earn invisibility and speed buff you must increase the distance between you and your closest enemy for at least 1,250 meters (2,5 squares on the minimap). If you are not tagged you can still exit in 2 mins like usual, but there will be no invisibility and no speed buff. However increasing distance to 1,250 meters opens another option "Slip away". Using it grants Invisibility and Speed buff. Thus even slower ships can get away if players were able to demast, damage sails use Rig repairs wisely or killing all enemies altogether or all the enemies all left letting you go;

4. Ship repairs should either have 30 minute timers (independent from each ther) or limit to one repair only in battle (using same amount of consumables though). Today it has become a game of who has more repairs.

This means that if you could run away in the battle because you have faster ship it will grant you the get out card. If your ship was not or you were not able to damage your enemy enough, then "c'est la vie" - you are in trouble.

By doing this we are sorting the following:

1. No revenge fleet - if you deserve to avoid revenge fleet you will earn it in the battle;
2. No absolute ganking - as a ganker you don't get automatic out of jail card. It is still possible for home defenders to protect their waters.
3. Slower ships wont be able to defensive tag as easily giving them huge distance advantage, easy to get out and use of invisibility and speed bonus which is also not right.
4. No abusing in-battle repairs which is also hardly realistic

Edited August 1, 2017 by koltes

[Prater]

1 hour ago, koltes said:

The battle group and tag circle around defender are the perfect mechanics!!! Nothing needs to be changed there.

However, we still have number of issues on hand on similar matters relating to OW ROE and tagging mechanics.

• NO Invisibility and no speed buff caused revenge fleets chasing fast ship, re-tagging after battles and not letting them go for a long period of time - BAD
• 30 Secs invisibility and the God's speed buff allows gankers to permanently harass enemy waters with impunity - BAD

We are going from one extreme here to another.
 

ROE should be fair and follow same principal - faster ships should be able to get away while slower ships should be caught, while player skills could still save them.

The question is how?
The answer is through out altered tagging and what happens inside the battle.

1. Tagging is changed so you can only initiate tag if target is in front of your ship (not behind), thus solves an issue of faster ships not being able to catch slower ships due to defensive tags leading to repeated tagging battle after battle. Maybe closest distance limit circle added that even if you drop on top of the target you still some distance away;




2. Exiting battle does NOT grant you invisibility and god's speed buff automatically - you have to "earn it" in the battle first;

3. To earn invisibility and speed buff you must increase the distance between you and your closest enemy for at least 1,250 meters (2,5 squares on the minimap). If you are not tagged you can still exit in 2 mins like usual, but there will be no invisibility and no speed buff. However increasing distance to 1,250 meters opens another option "Slip away". Using it grants Invisibility and Speed buff. Thus even slower ships can get away if players were able to demast, damage sails use Rig repairs wisely etc;

4. Ship repairs should either have 30 minute timers (independent from each ther) or limit to one repair only in battle (using same amount of consumables though). Today it has become a game of who has more repairs.

This means that if you could run away in the battle because you have faster ship it will grant you the get out card. If your ship was not or you were not able to damage your enemy enough, then "c'est la vie" - you are in trouble.

By doing this we are sorting the following:

1. No revenge fleet - if you deserve to avoid revenge fleet you will earn it in the battle;
2. No absolute ganking - as a ganker you don't get automatic out of jail card. It is still possible for home defenders to protect their waters.
3. Slower ships wont be able to defensive tag as easily giving them huge distance advantage, easy to get out and use of invisibility and speed bonus which is also not right.
4. No abusing in-battle repairs which is also hardly realistic

The only question I have is what happens after I sink an enemy?  So I sink an enemy, now there are 50 ships covering the horizon to revenge gank.  Fair fight, if time compression was equal in instance and open world I would have been long gone.  Your solution doesn't protect against this.  I leave battle, I am surrounded, there is no getting away, skill or speed in my favor.  They will spawn right on top of me and chain and demast me.

Otherwise, I like it all, I just have this one question.

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, koltes said:

1. Tagging is changed so you can only initiate tag if target is in front of your ship (not behind), thus solves an issue of faster ships not being able to catch slower ships due to defensive tags leading to repeated tagging battle after battle. Maybe closest distance limit circle added that even if you drop on top of the target you still some distance away;




 

I think a better solution would be the offset circle for the tag as illustrated below. The front and back solution has too clear a cut off line which can possibly be used to create a defensive tag by getting the attacker close to the zone and turning slightly. It would also require the zone to be shown on the screen.

I have suggested this sort of off centered tag as a solution to defensive tagging for a long time but they dont seem interested in taking it onboard.

[Archaos]

3 hours ago, koltes said:

2. Exiting battle does NOT grant you invisibility and god's speed buff automatically - you have to "earn it" in the battle first;

3. To earn invisibility and speed buff you must increase the distance between you and your closest enemy for at least 1,250 meters (2,5 squares on the minimap). If you are not tagged you can still exit in 2 mins like usual, but there will be no invisibility and no speed buff. However increasing distance to 1,250 meters opens another option "Slip away". Using it grants Invisibility and Speed buff. Thus even slower ships can get away if players were able to demast, damage sails use Rig repairs wisely etc;

Why would someone let you get to 1250 meters knowing that you would then get the speed and invisibility buff. Once you reached the 2 minute time the chaser would just exit battle to deny you the buff. If I am unable to tag you and you are gaining distance what is the point in continuing to chase.

[Hethwill]

Interesting fusion of several older suggestions.

The only quirk I am having is with number 3. which means speed will always be the ruling meta, which is what already happens in small scale raids.

I sincerely do not understand the need for 1250m at all. Why 1250m ? Why not 5000m ? Why not 755m ( out of control bubble ) ? 

As Fischer well put it - No interest in a ship that doesn't have the power to fight nor the speed to get away.

Also no chance for defensive tag ( for those that rely on it ) was brought up in the past against the 3-to-9 line of tag.

Merits of several RoE's we had, from tag to exit, was that it was level. From the tactical approach to the target to the anti-warp measures on exit ( worked both sides ).

At worst case scenario do away with the turbo speed / invisibility and give back to the 90% non-hardcore crew their comfort as before, with slight changes, with "exit to nearest friendly deep water port - no free port" with conditions:

- no fleet ships

- no cargo other than repairs

- no outlaw battle

--

Repairs... yes. Increased timers every time it is used, 1st use, the 7 minutes cool down, second time, 14 minutes, 3rd time, 28 minutes.

A battle lasts 90 minutes. With 30 minutes as you suggest. we better return to 2 flat repairs with no cool down.

 

 

[Archaos]

5 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Also no chance for defensive tag ( for those that rely on it ) was brought up in the past against the 3-to-9 line of tag.

The thing is you have to look at what a tag is, it is a mechanic to initiate a battle. But a defensive tag is not done to initiate a battle it is a bending of the game mechanics to put the attacker in a worse position and allow escape. If you are running in OW and the chaser is faster than you they should be able to dictate at what point to initiate the battle. Defensive tags should not really be an option, and I say that as a person who does more trading than PvP. The offset tag circles in my opinion is the best solution.

[Duncan McFail]

We went from 60 second invisibility that gave too much leeway to hunters being counter-hunted to 30 seconds that wasn't enough and now 30 seconds invisibility with superspeed that ignores wind. Not sure how this is a compromise. Need to give the superspeed only to the defender. No superspeed to the attacker. No superspeed off of OW AI battles, missions, epic events, etc.

Example. Hunter hits a trader, kills him, and exits to a counter-hunter fleet they have superspeed. They get chased down by counter-hunter fleet. If they counter tag no superspeed and the counter-hunter fleet does. If they hit an AI fleet no super speed for anyone. If they get hit again and escape they get superspeed.

[shaeberle84]

Or just keep invisibility and remove speed bonus after battle.

And remove invisibility after NPC tag. To prevent defensive tags to get away.

And remove invisibility for the winner of a battle (last ship to leave). To prevent two nations working together versus one nation to use the speed bonus and invisibility to contantly tag each other.

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, Prater said:

The only question I have is what happens after I sink an enemy?  So I sink an enemy, now there are 50 ships covering the horizon to revenge gank.  Fair fight, if time compression was equal in instance and open world I would have been long gone.  Your solution doesn't protect against this.  I leave battle, I am surrounded, there is no getting away, skill or speed in my favor.  They will spawn right on top of me and chain and demast me.

Otherwise, I like it all, I just have this one question.

Fair note, I meant it that if there are no enemies left in the battle whether they were killed by you or left (escaped) letting you go you should get the invisibility.
---------
3. To earn invisibility and speed buff you must increase the distance between you and your closest enemy for at least 1,250 meters (2,5 squares on the minimap). If you are not tagged you can still exit in 2 mins like usual, but there will be no invisibility and no speed buff. However increasing distance to 1,250 meters opens another option "Slip away". Using it grants Invisibility and Speed buff. Thus even slower ships can get away if players were able to demast, damage sails use Rig repairs wisely or killing all enemies altogether or all the enemies are left letting you go;

 

29 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Why would someone let you get to 1250 meters knowing that you would then get the speed and invisibility buff. Once you reached the 2 minute time the chaser would just exit battle to deny you the buff. If I am unable to tag you and you are gaining distance what is the point in continuing to chase.

That's the whole purpose. If they wont let you go that far then you are not fast enough or you have not kicked them enough to shake them off. Why should you have the "free get away"card? You have not shaked them off, they are sill on your tail right? Exiting the battle should still keep them on your tail.


 

29 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

...The only quirk I am having is with number 3. which means speed will always be the ruling meta, which is what already happens in small scale raids.

I sincerely do not understand the need for 1250m at all. Why 1250m ? Why not 5000m ? Why not 755m ( out of control bubble ) ?

Speed is already ruling the seas. Always have and is now better balanced with repairs wights and builds. If you want speed you will have to sacrifice some tanking or even firepower.
In regards 1,250 meters is this is the distance of 2,5 square on the minimap where you have no chance to tag. If you get outside their tag zone (cannon reach) you are fast enough to slip away. Can't do less distance as player can still be tagged, no point doing more distance as its just waist of everyone's time. If you got to 1,250 you will get further away.

 

[admin]

51 minutes ago, rediii said:

superspeed to the defender, not attacker... I like that one.

 

no

because you bait enemy to attack you and get all the speed you want after

[Hethwill]

49 minutes ago, koltes said:

 

I get your point. In truth there's no difference to what it was before with the battle screen exit. Simply bounce whatever bandit I wish and keep zooming out, either by teleport or turbo speed, makes no difference.

Funny how the turbo speed was introduced as a counter for battle camping whereas before that the "loophole" was the teleport. Maybe we did not ask the correct question when trying to solve the issue.

P.S. - actually the 1250m in the suggestion could actually be replaced by 10% damage done, to ensure the aggressor acts like one and is not only using it as a bouncing mat. Defender, well, is either turning to fight or actually running away successfully whatever.

Responsability is on the agressor, all the time, IMO.

 

 

[Koltes]

6 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

I get your point. In truth there's no difference to what it was before with the battle screen exit. Simply bounce whatever bandit I wish and keep zooming out, either by teleport or turbo speed, makes no difference.

Funny how the turbo speed was introduced as a counter for battle camping whereas before that the "loophole" was the teleport. Maybe we did not ask the correct question when trying to solve the issue.

 

 

Never asked for teleport. Only asked for no battle screen and dropping to OW if alt-F4 so players need to fight their way out, not just abandon the fight. For me I rather take the risk and be ganked by revenge fleet than have what we have now. However to find balancing solution what I have proposed would work for both sides.

[Archaos]

51 minutes ago, koltes said:

Fair note, I meant it that if there are no enemies left in the battle whether they were killed by you or left (escaped) letting you go you should get the invisibility.
---------
3. To earn invisibility and speed buff you must increase the distance between you and your closest enemy for at least 1,250 meters (2,5 squares on the minimap). If you are not tagged you can still exit in 2 mins like usual, but there will be no invisibility and no speed buff. However increasing distance to 1,250 meters opens another option "Slip away". Using it grants Invisibility and Speed buff. Thus even slower ships can get away if players were able to demast, damage sails use Rig repairs wisely or killing all enemies altogether or all the enemies are left letting you go;

This still gives too much advantage to the attacker raiding around nation capitals or other busy areas. The raider tags a trader sinks it and then heads off for the next target with the buff and the defenders have little chance of catching him. He can carry on doing that for a good while without getting caught, where in reality if a raider was constantly raiding an area a defense force would build up in that area to sink him or chase him off.

[HachiRoku]

Changing the tag to ships infront is a bad idea. I tag ships behind me all the time if i need to sail into the wind so im upwind in combat. That wouldn't work at all. We just have to all agree that the community doesn't want even fights and that is the main issue. How to change that is the real question that i think about alot but cant figure out. One way to start is to make upgrades cheaper. People might not go 10vs1 if they know the one guys is not in a 100k suprise with 3 million worth of upgrades. Upgrades need to be cheaper than the ships and if upgrades are easier to get players risk fair fights. You have players pvping all the time in ships they cant aford to replace so they gank. I sail fir fir no upgrade ships so I can be ganked and dont care. Its all about making people want to accept the challenge and fight eqaul br. Ganks will always happen but we need to reduce them somehow. Why was the loads of great fights before wipe? People didnt care about loosing crooked hull, copper plating or boven....

Edited August 1, 2017 by HachiRoku

[Hethwill]

3 minutes ago, koltes said:

Never asked for teleport. Only asked for no battle screen and dropping to OW if alt-F4 so players need to fight their way out, not just abandon the fight. For me I rather take the risk and be ganked by revenge fleet than have what we have now. However to find balancing solution what I have proposed would work for both sides.

Hence the P.S. I added later on 

o7

[Luc]

26 minutes ago, admin said:

no

because you bait enemy to attack you and get all the speed you want after

Admin is right. The attacker is also often a victim of fleets in hostile waters. When u hunt alone and Tag a ship there's no chance to escape afterwards most of the time. Because of time compression in the ow it's mostly unfair without the speed boost. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Luc

[shaeberle84]

47 minutes ago, admin said:

no

because you bait enemy to attack you and get all the speed you want after

Not superspeed at all, just invisibility, please. This will help coast guards a lot. Super speed is just too easily abused.

[Koltes]

28 minutes ago, Archaos said:

This still gives too much advantage to the attacker raiding around nation capitals or other busy areas. The raider tags a trader sinks it and then heads off for the next target with the buff and the defenders have little chance of catching him. He can carry on doing that for a good while without getting caught, where in reality if a raider was constantly raiding an area a defense force would build up in that area to sink him or chase him off.

This mechanic is not to remove hunting in the area. Its when defenders actually come out and start hunting the intruders they would have some chances to catch them.
If I'm a hunter and tagged trader and killed him after 3 minutes when Battle Instance is closed this means that I got away. Done and dusted. Why should I be ganked then?
However if I'm spotted and the chase begins the chasers needs to be able to bring me to fight providing that they have fast enough ships.

[Vernon Merrill]

Invisibility doesn't matter without the super speed.  Without the superspeed, you go back to what we just had and what drove people away. The "home defense" fleets set up a 30-second circle around the battle and re-tag ad nauseum.   

Traders were given guns

Fleet holds are now utilized

The join timer is extended again

Theres still a million AI fleets to run to

Theres still a million forts to run to

Many areas, especially the Antilles have ports that are less than two minutes sail from each other...

 

How many more concessions need to be made for these so-called "defenseless traders"?!  Grab an escort.

And if you're in a warship, you have ZERO right to a safe space.  

Its a game about combat and the only way to get good is to practice, which for me involved a lot of being sunk when I first started   

 

[Liq]

1 hour ago, shaeberle84 said:

Not superspeed at all, just invisibility, please. This will help coast guards a lot. Super speed is just too easily abused.

Isn't the last part a bit ironic?
Without the speed boost, we're going back to where we were before - players in battle are just easy food to players waiting outside because THEY are the ones profiting from a super speed.
IMHO Currently its fine. 3 minute join timer is plenty to let anything in range join. As Vernon said, get an escort when you're in a trader... this is a pvp server after all, not pve trading simulator, though sometimes it does feel like it
-Maybe reduce max. tagging range to somewhat reduce defensive tagging-

If we're ever going back to a mechanic which allows players to leave a battle where they are ALREADY outnumbering, to then meet up with mates which profited from the OW speed boost to set up a super gank, I'll be leaving this game for good. That's just poor gameplay design.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Liquicity

[shaeberle84]

25 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

Isn't the last part a bit ironic?
Without the speed boost, we're going back to where we were before - players in battle are just easy food to players waiting outside because THEY are the ones profiting from a super speed.
IMHO Currently its fine. 3 minute join timer is plenty to let anything in range join. As Vernon said, get an escort when you're in a trader... this is a pvp server after all, not pve trading simulator, though sometimes it does feel like it
-Maybe reduce max. tagging range to somewhat reduce defensive tagging-

If we're ever going back to a mechanic which allows players to leave a battle where they are ALREADY outnumbering, to then meet up with mates which profited from the OW speed boost to set up a super gank, I'll be leaving this game for good. That's just poor gameplay design.

Invisibility is enough to escape a revenge fleet of say 3-5 players. You can see where they are, but they cannot see you. Just sail where they left a gap in the net.

But with speed boost you can easily escape any revenge fleet, no matter how large.

Just get rid of the speed boost, thats all.

 

I give you an example of speed boost abuse:

You and a pirate mate (say Danish ALT) come to Swedish waters, find yourself a nice target and capture it. Then there is the mighty Swedish coastguard chasing you. What do you do? Exactly: you tag each other, create a Pirate vs. Danish battle, leave after two minutes and get away with invisibility and speed boost with no chance whatsoever for the Swedish who want to take back their ship.

 

I know, we have different sides on this topic, but you must also see both sides. Even the Swedes were against revenge fleets able to tag you for HOURS. But with the system right now, it is flawed in the other direction.

Edited August 1, 2017 by shaeberle84

[Liq]

1 minute ago, shaeberle84 said:

Invisibility is enough to escape a revenge fleet of say 3-5 players. You can see where they are, but they cannot see you. Just sail where they left a gap in the net.

Nope

It really doesn't take a genius to set up a somewhat reliable revenge fleet. Place your ships at the best point of escape for the guys in battle and maybe one or two a little bit upwind in case he tries to "squeeze through a gap" - It has been tested lively.

[shaeberle84]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Nope

It really doesn't take a genius to set up a somewhat reliable revenge fleet. Place your ships at the best point of escape for the guys in battle and maybe one or two a little bit upwind in case he tries to "squeeze through a gap" - It has been tested lively.

Then maybe it is just your fault to get ALONE into an area where 10+ enemy players are. How about that?

I want to be REASONABLE here, you on the other hand want what is best for YOU.

[Liq]

Just now, shaeberle84 said:

Then maybe it is just your fault to get ALONE into an area where 10+ enemy players are. How about that?

I want to be REASONABLE here, you on the other hand want what is best for YOU.

lol

You do understand we have to dimensions, 1) 75x compressed OW and 2) instanced battles, hence the 3 minute join timer, which is more than enough time to let nearby ships (10+ enemy players) join. If they are NOT in that range, they can't join. Why would they? "Speed boost is just way too exploitable" you said yourself. So wheres the problem?

I want what's best for the game to have a good PvP experience - Being rejected a 1v2, while being the one, to then find yourself to fight an 1v10, because they profited from the OW speed bosot and were NOT in 3 minute vicinity of the original battle, is NOT a good game experience. Maybe for some guys who prefer 10v1 roflstomps only, but for me it isnt.

[Hethwill]

So everyone has to play with a PB fleets just because of YOU ?

How about sailing in a proper convoy ?

Anyway, both ghost hunts and camp ganks do damage a lot and sap patience of everyone.

So think outside the damn box

Make it real. Make it multi instanced real time regions.

Sail and attack and react at your hearts contempt with proper space and time.