The case for 1 durability on all ships

[Rebel Witch]

i read on the patch notes that the devs plan to make first rates 3 durability. Which baffles me, because for months the Devs have tried to find ways to limit the use of 1st rates, now people will use them even more without fear of losing their best modules.

Apparently this is because players are too concerned about losing good , hard to get modules. Well the solution is far more simple than going the wrong direction with ship durability. Simply make it so that every module in the game can be crafted! Now people can more easily replace those precious modules.

If this game is to succeed as a pvp game it must cater to pvp and so players must learn to be able to lose things. If the game is changed so much that players never worry about losing anything, then they will get bored that much faster and stop playing. The game needs to stay challenging!

This is why 1 durability per ship is a MUST if this game is to be even considered a serious pvp game. If you know you can sail around never losing a ship and its mods, it starves the human desire for challenge and thrill. Sure, many players do not want that kind of risk or thrill which is fine, thats why this game also needs dedicated areas for carebears.

Another big change that needs to happen if 1 durability per ship is tried. The limit of ships in port needs to be increased from 6 to at least 18 or more. That way players can store more ships, more options for them. Also more replacements when their 1 dura ship is lost.

by making all ships 1 dura. you also breath new life into the crafting market. Ships cost to build can be reduced by 4/5th so crafters can now pump out more ships, thus reducing prices, thus players can fill up those docks.

modules , basic ones would be super easy to build, super cheap and rightfully the best modules very very expensive. if players want to put super expensive modules on their ships, its got to be a risk. and it does no good if people sail around with the best modules all the time which is what happens when ships are multi dura.

This game strives to recreate the world of sail which is fantastic, however with multi durability ships there is no room for realism, only for player comfort that will simply make players bored faster who then turn to a game that gives them greater challenge.

 

Come on Devs, give 1 durability on all ships a chance before its too late!! In past Polls a majority of players have even asked for it.

[Rebel Witch]

1 hour ago, rediii said:

multi dura ships also make the database less big. Maybe that's the real reason.

If it is, would be great if the Devs told the community that. I mean if its a server limit then it is what it is, and thats fine. I just assume the multi dura thing on ships was copied from "pirates of the burning sea" and to please players, and encourage more pvp or risk.

If the Devs have covered this in another thread over the past year please give a link, would be good to know because there are a lot of players who want them to try 1 dura on all ships.

[Angus McGregor]

23 hours ago, Wraith said:

 

You're telling me they can't afford some more disk space? The database to store ships for a game this size, would be what, in the 100s of thousands of records right? Any indexed table in a modern DBS is not even going to blink at that from a processing perspective.

I found that explanation hard to accept too. 

In fact, I don't really see that 1 dura ships will result in needing more data storage. Every player fills all the available outpost ship slots they have. What does it matter if the slots are all full of ships with 1 dura or 5?

I would actually think that multi-duras will make the storage situation worse. If a 1 dura ship looses, it's gone and it's data record is deleted along with the records of all its mods - storage recovered. If a multi-dura ship sinks, none of that is true until it loses the last dura. But then all the mods have been off loaded except for maybe fireship.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Angus McGregor

[Hethwill]

A 38 gun frigate needs 38 carriages to support 38 cannon, no ?

Adjustments can be made by other means. Let's wait for all the patches that are in testbed, especially the rewards adjustment.

[Yar Matey]

I think the overall consensus from the community was a 1 durability ship system was a better system.  There were only 1 or 2 vocal community members I can remember that spoke out against a 1 durability system.  Unfortunately, the devs seem to think a 1 durability system is a bad idea, and I do not think this is a battle the community can win.  The devs are going to do what they want to do and we are destined to have 3 durability first rates. 

I already wrote a long explanation 2-3 times on why a 1 durability system is a much better system.  But the main reason for wanting one is immersion and the thrill factor where winning or losing a battle will actually matter.  What is the point of having this vast open world to PvP in if there is very little risk of losing your ships and your victories are shallow because you see your enemy sail back out in the ship you just captured or sunk?  I really hope the devs consider implementing it, but dont hold your breath waiting for it to ever come. The devs already said no, and they dont seem to ever be convinced to change their minds no matter how vocal the community is.  We still have PvP fleets FFS!  How vocal was the community on this issue alone about how bad PvP fleets are?  Yet we still have them!

Edited March 7, 2017 by Yar Matey

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

Not for a wide scale 1 dura system. But not for making 1st rates 3 dura unless significant price hikes.

[_Masterviolin]

The game is already not very appealing to the masses for its grindiness and difficulty. One dura ships would improve PVP perhaps, but we all know a significant portion of players would end up cradling their precious ships. PVP is dry enough as it is, and I don't want to see half the server's new players hide doing PVE so they don't lose their ships. Most people talking here are players that are willing to sink a lot of time and effort into the game, who already have high ranks and crafting setups. For new players, it's already a long uphill journey to get to other ships. 

I think a universal 1 dura system would be a fatal blow to activity.

[Yar Matey]

6 minutes ago, _Masterviolin said:

The game is already not very appealing to the masses for its grindiness and difficulty. One dura ships would improve PVP perhaps, but we all know a significant portion of players would end up cradling their precious ships. PVP is dry enough as it is, and I don't want to see half the server's new players hide doing PVE so they don't lose their ships. Most people talking here are players that are willing to sink a lot of time and effort into the game, who already have high ranks and crafting setups. For new players, it's already a long uphill journey to get to other ships. 

I think a universal 1 dura system would be a fatal blow to activity.

NONSENCE!  The game is dry of PvP because there is so few people playing the game now.  Its not appealing to the masses, or even myself anymore, because the game requires way too much sailing to build ships, way too much sailing to find PvP with no guarantee you will find any decent PvP, and way too much sailing to get to port battles with no guarantee you will get into one because of how rare they are now.  The durability has nothing to do with these other problems.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Yar Matey

[Hethwill]

A simulator 1 life arena-event ( see IL-2 and similar ones ) lasting two hours can result in being shot in the first 15 minutes and having to wait 1 hour and 45 minutes until the scenario ends as it can last for two hours if a player does survive long enough.

Sailing time to do whatever is relative to the purpose of it. When it is getting too much is actually too much on the player end, not the game end.

Maybe a player is actually meant not to do everything immediately and having "eve-like-timers" would make less sense than actually having to sail out and have a chance of being intercepted in the Open World ?

Or maybe there's no need to PvP if a player wants to dedicate the little time it has just to economy and crafting ?

[_Masterviolin]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

But it wouldn't!  It would make capped ships viable and for non-lineships this would be a huge success. It would make finding those interesting, non-craftable region bonus ships that you take from AI super interesting. You could sell these at a huge premium in your ship markets. You would have a stable of PvP-ready ships that, while not coming with all of the advantages of purpose-built, crafted ships, would be infinitely more useful than the 1 durability garbage that we just break up for parts now.

For most players, even one durability second rates are broken up for trash. Hell, I even break up my garbage L'Oceans I get from ship chests because they're trash.

Make them count! Make one durability ships matter. How much time and effort does it take to go cap a few pickles and privateers when you're starting out so that you have some backup ships? You might find that epic combination of build quality and bonuses that no crafter could make for you. And the major byproduct of this: is that capping another player's ship actually matters as well!

Alright, I see that point  Yet, I think gold should be boosted, or crafting made easier as a result. 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

Agreed. Only way I see this as a viable option is if required hoursand material are lowered significantly. 

Just getting into crafting now and i spend a few hours just getting everything ready for crafting a ship.

[Fargo]

1 dura done right would even reduce ships prices, because of more competition. When you double the dura, you cut resource cost, the outfitting cost (mods) and LH by half, to keep the current balancing. When you want to keep the carriages, cut the resources and LH for these by half, or reduce other materials instead.

(Short about LH: they define the crafting time/ship supply, but they dont make ships more expensive. For example if you double all LH needed for ships the ship prices would rise, but because of lower supply. If supply is still fine prices wouldnt change, this would only drop the value/LH. This is why you should balance income with resource cost. The amount of LH for ships depends on the LH generation/palyer and the amount of ships sinking. When on average each player sinks (not captured) one ship each two days, each palyer needs to generate at least half the LH needed for an according ship per day. You can see the value/LH as an inflation indicator. With constant resource costs more money on the market rising prices would only rise the labour value. If LH make 80% of ship prices its either bad balancing, or massive inflation, or both.

In short to increase the cost you increase the resource amount or resource production cost, to lower the ship supply you increase the amount of LH. How you spread cost and LH over different materials doesnt matter.)

 

45 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

I think the overall consensus from the community was a 1 durability ship system was a better system.  There were only 1 or 2 vocal community members I can remember that spoke out against a 1 durability system.  Unfortunately, the devs seem to think a 1 durability system is a bad idea, and I do not think this is a battle the community can win.  The devs are going to do what they want to do and we are destined to have 3 durability first rates. 

They should at least give us a reasoning why they think its a bad idea. If there are technical limitations, im fine with that. Or if it would be too much work to change eco and mods e.g., but they want to change these nevertheless. But ignoring rational discussions because they cant compete against 1 dura this way?! We wasted a lot of time here then.

16 minutes ago, _Masterviolin said:

I think a universal 1 dura system would be a fatal blow to activity.

But we can proofe this wrong, thats the point.

[Hethwill]

If correct times and materials needed are implemented I don't see a big issue with 3 duras.

Also if correct mass/volume being transported by ships is implemented I don't see a big issue with 3 duras.

Go through the list of the Victory and even the Constitution and a bay schooner. How much material is needed, how many hours it takes.

A schooner can be built very fast. A super frigate not so much. A ship of the line of battle was a major investment of the nation !

As we see economy MUST be the basis of our game. Conquest an extension of economy, by other means.

[jodgi]

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

Now people can more easily replace those precious modules.

I really don't want to be bogged down with crafting. That solution is a halfway-house.

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

must cater to pvp and so players must learn to be able to lose things.

A contradiction in terms.

 

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

If you know you can sail around never losing a ship and its mods, it starves the human desire for challenge and thrill.

So Warthunder, WoT, WoWP, WoWS, Aces High, Battlefield et al "starves the human desire for challenge and thrill"?

You confuse human desire with your own preference. 

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

Sure, many players do not want that kind of risk or thrill which is fine, thats why this game also needs dedicated areas for carebears.

Je suis carebear.

 

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

modules , basic ones would be super easy to build, super cheap

You mean those that nobody wants?

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

and rightfully the best modules very very expensive.

So the thrill you're referring to is basically the tension of having good stuff but not daring to use it unless you're prepared to pay the iron price in crafting?

 

7 hours ago, Rebel Witch said:

In past Polls a majority of players have even asked for it.

*sigh*

You will be surprised to learn that, as I've stated in seven of the other thirteen one-dura threads, I'm willing to test it at this point. I have no faith in glorious PvP surviving 1-dura oppression, though. But I might be wrong.

I want to enable and nurture willingness to PvP above everything else... EVERYTHING.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Captured ships, grey port ships, crafted ones in shop, all these would get a purpose and a market, no need to lower the costs, everyone is stacking money way too easily, maybe adjust ress. and labour hour production, (upgrades and crafting is already under rework).

As i've said elsewhere, they even could make "no leak but zero structure killed ships" not sink to compensate the loss of duras, that way the only dissapearing ships from the world would be sunken ones, those capped by ai, and those broken appart by players. And loosing a battle would make your nation with one less ship and the opponent stronger by one ship, making battle results count for rvr and conquering the map..

I've lost countless battles since one year, yet i still have nearly all my redeemables ships from the steam sale to use, and all my outposts docks are full +fleet slots, and i'm not even a big crafter, rich/pour, nor a big grinder, i'm not even in a clan, that's to say..

Make ow life count for nations, if you want to grind a ship and keep it all your life, play an arena game but in pvp ow server with conquest mechanic, loosing a ship should count.

 

[Niels Terkildsen]

9 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

If correct times and materials needed are implemented I don't see a big issue with 3 duras.

Also if correct mass/volume being transported by ships is implemented I don't see a big issue with 3 duras.

Go through the list of the Victory and even the Constitution and a bay schooner. How much material is needed, how many hours it takes.

A schooner can be built very fast. A super frigate not so much. A ship of the line of battle was a major investment of the nation !

As we see economy MUST be the basis of our game. Conquest an extension of economy, by other means.

Honestly, you could replace "3 duras" with "1 dura" in these sentences, and for me at least, that would make just as much (if not more) sense.

[Hethwill]

4 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

Honestly, you could replace "3 duras" with "1 dura" in these sentences, and for me at least, that would make just as much (if not more) sense.

Exactly  

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Yar Matey said:

I think the overall consensus from the community was a 1 durability ship system was a better system.

Whenever 1 dura ships have been tested they have been avoided by players after the new ship curiosity has been quenched. Look at the Admin quote in my sig, that came after they reviewed numbers after a 1-dura test. Whatever we say about it our actions betrayed that we didn't like the idea of 1-dura ships.

1 hour ago, Yar Matey said:

There were only 1 or 2 vocal community members I can remember that spoke out against a 1 durability system.

Lol, we were and still are more than one or two guys.

 

1 hour ago, Yar Matey said:

Unfortunately, the devs seem to think a 1 durability system is a bad idea,

Why do they think that, in your opinion?

1 hour ago, Yar Matey said:

The durability has nothing to do with these other problems.

Opinion: I think the dura question and all kinds of loss is the biggest factor holding PvP back.

 

31 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

As we see economy MUST be the basis of our game.

<Shifts uneasily in chair>

You know, eco stuff is cool and all in principle. It just seems that whatever is done eco stuff is at odds with PvP. My heart has made it's choice so I look with disdain at anything that is hurting my baby.

55 minutes ago, Fargo said:

But we can proofe this wrong, thats the point.

A bombastic promise of proof. Show me.

[Snoopy]

Personally, I wouldn't mind single dura ships provided all modules are craftable. It would make prizes and the prize taking effort meaningful. However, the perception of grindyness to build ships is a problem, for these reasons:

• It actually is a grind
• Multi durability lessen the impact and perception of that grind because you get several times worth your investment
• Even if crafting costs come down proportionally for single dura ships that perception probably still remains and multi duras are easier to use (towing/teleporting to areas of operation only once for n durabilities)

So, given those things, I'd rather have multi duras and remove module loss on the last durability.

[Hethwill]

Hey hey, the pilots don't build the planes. They spend their time learning how the bird flies. The wings are built for them, not by them. Right ?

Wanting to do everything is a choice. There are fighters, and there are builders, and there are those that want to do everything. Subjective to player rhythm of play, time spent, choices made.

Having a strong solid economic system and intricate crafting system doesn't affect PvP combat one bit, be it 1 dura, be it 5 duras.

I am having a bit of difficulty understanding why a renewed crafting and economy system influences so negatively the PvP.

[Yar Matey]

35 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Whenever 1 dura ships have been tested they have been avoided by players after the new ship curiosity has been quenched. Look at the Admin quote in my sig, that came after they reviewed numbers after a 1-dura test. Whatever we say about it our actions betrayed that we didn't like the idea of 1-dura ships.

 

31 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

Personally, I wouldn't mind single dura ships provided all modules are craftable. It would make prizes and the prize taking effort meaningful. However, the perception of grindyness to build ships is a problem, for these reasons:

• It actually is a grind
• Multi durability lessen the impact and perception of that grind because you get several times worth your investment
• Even if crafting costs come down proportionally for single dura ships that perception probably still remains and multi duras are easier to use (towing/teleporting to areas of operation only once for n durabilities)

So, given those things, I'd rather have multi duras and remove module loss on the last durability.

A 1 durability system does not have to be painful and grindy.  All that needs to happen is material and labor hour costs need to be divided by the number of durabilities ships currently have now.  All notes should cost 50 LH to craft (low, mid, high) and cost 10 copper, silver, and gold coins each, then remove the need to be at a specific region to craft a ship with a regional bonus and make all modules craft-able, and you now have a functioning 1 durability system that works for everyone with 4th and 5th rates plentiful in the game because it would only cost ~500 LH to replace my lost Trincomalee. 

We gain so much from a 1 durability system, captures NPC ships will have more use making PvE a more enjoyable experience.  PvP will be much more meaningful as captured ships will have way more value.  The thrill and excitement of battle will be more exhilarating because losing your ship is now felt as a real loss.  The game will be way more immersive.

[jodgi]

35 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Wanting to do everything is a choice. There are fighters, and there are builders,

Tell you what, if the builders are able and willing to provide even the best stuff to the fighters at a rate the fighters are able to pay then I'm totally onboard. If I can only do PvP and pay my way with that activity I'll be a happy camper.

From what we've had since day one up until today the reality has been far from that. I didn't have a choice to not drag myself through crafting, if I did that I would not have been able to be competitive... not even close.

12 minutes ago, Yar Matey said:

The game will be way more immersive.

I get that and if it works I will stop being a bitch and enjoy the immersive gameplay.

But it won't do if certain special ships or upgrades or whatever are unavailable or too expensive for a pure PvP player.

The idea that we should happily go into battle with sub-optimal equipment is a strange one to me.

...

Comment:

I also never understood the claim that no risk/no loss would make everything boring in the end and make us leave.

When will this boredom set in?

[Raekur]

I think that if the durability is going to be reduced to 1 then the method of crafting modules should change as well. Currently it takes 120 Silver coins to craft a gold module. How about instead of just silver we introduce the use of the other precious metals. 240 copper coins or 60 gold coins to manufacture the same result. Introduce a Module Note that can be crafted using either 60 Copper, 30 Silver or 15 Gold coins. This will reduce the importance of Silver mines (8 currently in game) and make it where the other metals have an equal value towards crafting.  With this then modules are easier to replace and therefor people may be willing to take more risks. It also removed Silver from being the "Dune Spice" of the game.

[wafflez1g]

I'm a 100% for this, though I would like to see durability on upgrades if this were to go through.

[JeanJacques de Montpellier]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

Hey hey, the pilots don't build the planes. They spend their time learning how the bird flies. The wings are built for them, not by them. Right ?

Wanting to do everything is a choice. There are fighters, and there are builders, and there are those that want to do everything. Subjective to player rhythm of play, time spent, choices made.

Having a strong solid economic system and intricate crafting system doesn't affect PvP combat one bit, be it 1 dura, be it 5 duras.

I am having a bit of difficulty understanding why a renewed crafting and economy system influences so negatively the PvP.

Hethwill, were/are you a pilot of il2? I m/was. And I fully agree with your interventions.

 

The argument about durability is really easy to understand.
The most important thing is that the captured vessels must have the same durability of those crafted / bought. One durability simplify this thing, besides being very rational.
Obviously crafting what would be appropriate, it is simple to understand.
The current system more duras for crafted / bought and one for capture, it makes nosense; is broken.

I also agree with the fact that the captains should also not build the ships themselves. Why should they?
The Admiralty should entrust the ships to the captains (according to xp made in patrolls / achievement missions assigned).
The Admiralty receives the ships by crafters.

Edited March 7, 2017 by JeanJacques de Montpellier