Devs say every ship is unique. What characteristics can they have?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Would there be value in the ability to load different cargo areas differently?  I'm not sure if fluid dynamics is modeled on the hull shape itself, or if speed is just a factor of ship x at sail deployment y with wind z can sail this fast.  If there aren't fluid dynamics, then differential loading to bring a ship by the head or the stern wouldn't really do anything without a TON of coding.  If there are fluid dynamics built into the game, then this may be a great way to learn just how to load your ship to get the best out of her, as well as providing an automatic penalty for too much/too little/improperly stored cargo.

 

And thanks AKPyrate - I was pretty sure ballast was infinitely customizable at the time, but didn't have good historical references with which to make a full-on assertion.    +1 Sir!

[WavesofGrain]

i think that Bellona should just be he "class".

You name the ship yourself when you purchase it and then it becomes "albatross of the bellona class". It is not necessarily the same as all the others out of the dock. Some characteristics could be a little different.

 

good players will know for instance that a line of bellona class will have to reduce speed in general to keep the line together due to thee slight differences due to build quality, random quality traits from the build, recent carrening, copper bottom or not, crew skill etc. Problem wil be that we cannot finely adjustt sail.

 

On naming, I agree that the purchaser gets to name the boat when it's new. I think it would be very cool if there was a system that encouraged people to keep the names the same (bad luck to rename a ship, you know), as that means you may have multiple encounters with the same ship (and that ship's unique characteristics) even if it passes to different hands.

 

Suppose you're a hardcore player who knows how your ship fares against a Bellona class generally, but you recall once a couple months ago when you were trying to chase down this very Albatross of the Bellona class and you found she was quicker on a starboard tack than port. That may change your plan of attack or the direction you approach her from.

 

Of course, deeply cool things like this are not possible unless ship names are kept relatively stable. I don't know how to discourage them though. Slight loss of morale due to the renaming being a bad omen? Too early to tell. Fun to discuss anyways.

[Dagann]

The differences of performances between different ships (exact same configuration) of the same model should be within 5%, may be 10% (absolute maximum).

So the maximum deviation should be 1 knot for 10 knots.

Player A would own a ship sailing at 10knots whereas player B would sail the ship form the same model at 11 knots.

A deviation of 10% is quite huge. Beyond this figure, players would think the game is unfair and start complaining (cause getting the 100% or 110% ships seems to be based on luck).

May a difference of 5% would be more reasonable.

[maturin]

The differences of performances between different ships (exact same configuration) of the same model should be within 5%, may be 10% (absolute maximum).

So the maximum deviation should be 1 knot for 10 knots.

Player A would own a ship sailing at 10knots whereas player B would sail the ship form the same model at 11 knots.

A deviation of 10% is quite huge. Beyond this figure, players would think the game is unfair and start complaining (cause getting the 100% or 110% ships seems to be based on luck).

May a difference of 5% would be more reasonable.

Yeah, small differences would be best. However, there could be larger differences for (dis)advantages that can be mitigated. That is, maybe a ship could have a 30% speed bonus but only on a close reach.

[Baggywrinkle]

Just been with some friends who did the tall ships race this summer - a few vessels of the same type (so more variation than within a more tightly controlled class), about 120 years between oldest original and most recent replica. They clocked a 4kt speed difference (c.7-11kts) under indentical conditions between them...

I'm very much with the 5-10% variation, just wanted to give the devs some more support for their approach with this .

Baggy

[AKPyrate]

In general, hull length determined maximum speed of any vessel.  Beam and draft have some effect, as does weed growth and fairing of the hull, but the length at the waterline is the major factor.  So, boats of the same class should have nearly the same speed.  However, slight rig differences, excess weather helm, handling, last careening date, weight of cargo, etc. can all have an impact to just how fast it's traveling today.  For things like extra cargo weight, that will likely make the boat steadier and a little faster through the moderate waves (momentum keeping it going), but much slower in maneuvering and slower acceleration.  These qualities can be a tradeoff.  Depending on the way the game turns out (can't wait to play it), I can understand a 10% difference in speed in order to exaggerate the differences a bit if it's necessary for gameplay and to make these differences really worthwhile, but if that's the case, then all differences should be exaggerated the same amount.  It should never get so extreme as to be grossly unrealistic, but these days many people don't appreciate the difference that 0.1 kts can make (anyone who's raced sailboats offshore would probably understand).  In order for that small amount to be significant, battles would have to be way too long.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Exactly.  If you want "fair" deviations with noticeable differences, you code it as a point system.  Given a list of different hidden characteristics that will be a benefit or detriment to a ship's handling, you create a "point" system where the sum total of positives and negatives is the same for all ships.

 

Think of a tabletop game that has a point buy system for stats.  You can have amazing strength, but you'll have to ignore or even reduce other stats to get it.

 

In the end, every ship has the same number of "points" towards various hidden characteristics.  Some will be better than the average for the hull, some will be worse.  In the end, every ship can be unique through a randomized distribution of pluses and minuses to those characteristics, but no ship will be overtly better than any other, they might be better on a bowline, might turn on a dime, might run downwind like it's going out of style, but they won't do everything well, just might do some things better at the expense of others.

 

I think this would counteract the "that guy's lucky!  he got the +5 in everything ship!"

[Stuka]

I haven't had a chance to play the game yet but after reading this thread it makes me wonder how ships will be purchased and built. So this is just a slight disclaimer before I possibly agitate people =P

 

 

For the sake of building ships, there could be lots of variation that could alter the quality of a ship and perhaps that quantity of ships built in a given time. Some examples I can think of (Some have already been mentioned) depending on how in depth the devs wish to make this game

 

1. The shipyard building the ship

 

2. The materials built

 

3. If a person wishes to speed production, they could pay for it with cash and could result in corners being cut resulting in poorer stats of the ship.

 

4. If the shipyard is near an area of conflict ex France and England are at war and a French port is within a certain proximity of the English port, this can result in both or 1 of the ports being effected resulting in poorer quality of ships.

 

5. If the country the port is owned by is losing in a war this may also result in poorer quality of ships while the winning country tends to have a more stable quality when winning.

 

6. If the shipyard was recently attacked, this could result in poorer quality of ships. I can't think of the exact name of the incident but I believe there was a fleet from I wanna say England that attacked a major port in Spain showing that this can be bypassed in example 4 while resulting in perhaps similar problems with qualities and perhaps this could be stacked on top of or again the equivalent of situation 4.

 

7. Perhaps experience of the shipbuilder? This could be problematic or perhaps a good thing as it could result in one nation having a larger majority of ships built perhaps making it an area of conflict?I am not sure how that would be implemented but it should perhaps be implemented at least slightly as I doubt a minor shipbuilder who maybe built 3 ships for example would be able to build a ship of similar quality as a shipbuilder who has made(Well I guess led production of) perhaps hundreds of ships. It could be locked at location(A minor shipyard IRL wouldn't have the same quality of one who was more used or what have you) to make it simpler rather then having a NPC building up experience.

 

8. Last thing I could think of would be how often it is maintained and perhaps resulting in giving the sailors leave "Repairing" or increasing their morale if the devs wish to add sailor morale to the game. It could also be "updated" or have new or better wood replacing the old or different wood. Example, your ship has Wood 1 but you heard wood 2 is better so you decide to replace the wood on perhaps one side of the ship, half the ship or the whole ship. Now obviously this would probably be nearly the equivalent of building a new ship so this may not be realistic but if it was implemented, it would likely be costly and time consuming.

 

Thats all I can think of for affecting the ship on build, obviously not easy to implement or code but if they wished to go so in depth.

 

Again, sorry if some of this has been discussed, I have little knowledge on ships of this time or real life experience on modern ships so it's fairly theoretical I guess on my part.

 

If the devs wished to add something slightly quickly to differentiate ships for stats the could just add slight differentiation between ship classes maybe 1% or less for now or perhaps they could add lobbies for people to play with friends.

 

Much of this is far off I suspect so much of this moot until the open world bit seems closer to being in the alpha/beta

 

 

 

 

 

Edit, for point 8 you can also have certain shipbuilders be better at certain classes either through experience from building them or through it being locked as determined by Devs. If they wish to go the experience route, they can or rather imo need to have the shipbuilders with a base starting experience depending on locations as they didn't start working for you day 1 of the open world. Granted they can do that as well if they wish and it is possible they will naturally get leveled up as they may have been IRL due to location or perhaps resources they had and such.

[Ghroznak]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could decide yourself the quality of the ship you want them to build?

 

For instance, if you want a Cutter then you don't just get "a cutter".

 

If you have little money you should be able to decide if they should use lower quality materials so that you can afford the ship. Sure, in the long run that is not a wise decision, but there and then, just to get a larger ship on the water to upscale your trading, it might suffice.

 

Pretty much every single game in existence has no choice for lower quality. There is one fixed price for the thing you want to buy and it will always retain the exact same statistics or functionality.

 

Give us an option when getting a ship to decide ourselves whether we want;

 

1) Low grade, medium grade or high grade wood

2) Low, medium or high grade rigging and sails

3) Low, medium or high quality casting for cannons

4) Fresh, seasoned or veteran sailors to work on the ship

 

If I am a poor wretch owning a shipping company it should be up to ME how much money I want to put into the ship. Maybe I am happy with some half-beaten, poorly hammered together ship that is barely afloat (think the Millenium Falcon and all it's issues) as long as that ship is capable of carrying 30 tonnes of sugar and spice for me to sell somewhere.

 

Why would I want to go for a "maxed out" quality and corresponding price on a ship that I most likely just want to upgrade away from later?

 

No, I don't want no high quality super-schooner. I want a half-rotten brig loaded to the brink with bananas to provide me with profits.

[Ligatorswe]

I remember that I read something the mastershipbuilder Sheldon wrote in Sweden in the 1600s. I wrote that the reason why ships that are build to be exactly the same always are different are that the TREES the ship was made of was different and that different experts with different knowledge.

The shipyards had experts that went out in the oak-tree woods, looking for the perfect trees for each and every ship. For shipparts and for hull, and everything. These were extremely well-paid experts that immediately could see what part of the hull or the ship every tree was suited for. To find the right part of the right oak for every ship was a SCIENCE!

So even if the same shipbuilder were to build the same ship he perhaps got oaks from southern sweden for the first ship and from midsweden on the second. The keel were perhaps made of best quality oak in ship one and a part of the hull made of GOOD quality but not perfect quality in the same ship. On the second ship the shipbuilders did not find exactly the same high quality oaktree for the hull, it was only the next to best quality. While the hull and thr rudder partly was super duper quality.

This is why ships differed even if they were meant to be exactly the same.



/T

 

[Reki]

1) Low grade, medium grade or high grade wood

2) Low, medium or high grade rigging and sails

3) Low, medium or high quality casting for cannons

4) Fresh, seasoned or veteran sailors to work on the ship

greating useless content is that thing, which FLS done. Look on Potbs. A lot of ships, parts, outfitting with not superior grade, but all of it have very rarely use. 90% Players won't play on underrated cheaper ships, just because it is disadvantage. If someone wants different craft results to sell it with dif. prices, best choice imo is product randomization. It means that when you craft ship, you don't know, what exactly stats it will have. Some scaling in it will result boosts in one and nerf in other stat. That system includes logical base with all that quality nuances. Crew is another theme.

[Ghroznak]

The whole reason for different quality is because of the pricing!

 

New ships of the highest quality should be VERY expensive.

This means not all players want to spend all that money.

 

So the choice is to use lower quality materials. And when using lower quality materials it should be up to the player to decide if he wants lower quality wood, sails, cannons, crew or whichever part of the ship he doesn't want to pay as much for.

 

If I am trading I want to get out of a Lynx as fast as possible, and if I have a choice to buy a low quality Brig for the same price as best quality Cutter then I might just do that, because I don't care about the ships ability in combat, I care about the size of it's cargohold.

 

It is entirely unrealistic to always get best quality ships, and it will give players much more freedom of choice if we can decide to use shipwrights that are cheaper, materials that are cheaper, less experienced crew etc.

 

As a ship owner who wants to just trade goods between England and Europe I don't want or need crews with Navy discipline, nor do I need a ship of the line requiring to hold fast in battle. I just need a floating piece of wood that can carry goods and not sink between ports and a cheap, half-drunk crew that's able to raise a sail.

 

That's my CHOICE, so why should that option not be available to me?

 

If you want to buy the highest quality, most expensive first rate ship for all the money you made in the game that is your choice. I rather make a profit

[Reki]

I want to buy highest quality frigate, btw.

But anyway it is matter of market request, if we look on this from profit angle. When you craft some lowgrade or midgrade things, i can definitely say, that it will have problems with request. If you have problems with request, then you simply not craft it, but craft those things, which will be definitely sold soon, because you spend some resources on it, which means you can't spend it in other thing. Plus: time is money. Profit depends from time heavily. But if you craft every time same grade ships with stat diference, you can scale price too, because, for example, more speed, or more maneuvrability, or more surviveability will have they effect on price too. And when you craft line of same frigate with a bit different stats, all of them will cost same resources and more like will be sold for some price, just because that ship won't be underrated by default, but have some special tune instead. Moreover, all understand that without selling ships crafter can't make new one. I believe, in this way all line will be sold. And there is one more way - to set ship stat only after it will be sold 

 

Single player corsair game (one of series at least) had system with "one boat, but a lot of her version with different stats" and it works well.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I want to buy highest quality frigate, btw.

But anyway it is matter of market request, if we look on this from profit angle. When you craft some lowgrade or midgrade things, i can definitely say, that it will have problems with request. If you have problems with request, then you simply not craft it, but craft those things, which will be definitely sold soon, because you spend some resources on it, which means you can't spend it in other thing. Plus: time is money. Profit depends from time heavily. But if you craft every time same grade ships with stat diference, you can scale price too, because, for example, more speed, or more maneuvrability, or more surviveability will have they effect on price too. And when you craft line of same frigate with a bit different stats, all of them will cost same resources and more like will be sold for some price, just because that ship won't be underrated by default, but have some special tune instead. Moreover, all understand that without selling ships crafter can't make new one. I believe, in this way all line will be sold. And there is one more way - to set ship stat only after it will be sold 

And that is exactly the key to this system. If the non-standard stats are hidden, you buy the ship not knowing what it is good at and must sail it to learn its qualities.

[Robert Danforth]

I just finished a book about Pellew, and in it they talk about how he had a lot of knowledge on shipbuilding because of his time in America working with a shipbuilder on the Great Lakes. Because of this, he was able to modify a lot of the rigging and sailplan on the Indefatigable to make it more perform better at sea. Something he had wanted to do, but was denied by the Admiralty, was to move the masts forward one beam, which means that's actually possible. Probably expensive, but possible.

 

That's something to think about.

 

Also, I'd love to see a bevy of personalization options (mastheads, colors obviously, trim style, &c.). That'd be entirely cosmetic, but it's my ship (well in my case, it's the King's Ship, but...).

 

/T

 

 

Just an interesting point of note, I'm about an hour away from a forest in New Hampshire that was set aside for ship masts. It's called Mast Yard State Forest.

 

It's probably a lot smaller today than it was in the era we're sailing, but there used to be trees there with the King's Mark.

[maturin]

I have just discovered a trove of summarized Sailing Quality Reports for dozens of French frigates. This information is gold, telling us what characteristics contemporary captains and architects considered most important. It can also guide the devs when they create stats for ships. For instance, one major takeaway is that when a ship is unusually fast on a given point of sail, another point of sail often suffers. A fast upwind sailer is poor downwind, or vice versa.

 

If you are at all interested in vessel performance, you need to read this.

 

Here is everything I have found so far. I'd love to start a real conversation around this, and would happily write a glossary if need be, but the scale of the info dump makes that difficult to accomplish. If any devs are interested, I could try and synthesize this information into something more readable and actionable.

 

http://imgur.com/a/LRzbO

 

Source: History of the French Frigate, 1650-1850

[ObiQuiet]

Great find Maturin, of equal rank with your testudo auberii, and far, far more valuable to Jack himself who was forever adjusting the ship's fore-aft trim and a keen student of a ships griping character when sailing on a bowline.

Give you joy of your discovery,

Lt. Obiquiet

Edited February 21, 2015 by Lt. Obiquiet

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

Cant really see an issues with this,just as long as the differences arent huge.

[Crankey]

The OP is correct.

I think the differences will add a little flavour to the game so I may be slightly envious of that half a knot my fellow captain can achieve when we sail together in our same class ship.

 

If the Devs have said this will be a future implimentation then I'm very happy to see it in game. No point arguing if it will or will take up developer time for 'more important' features. It is already planned so has already been allocated programme time and will be somewhere on the programme of works time line.

 

This post is about informing the players why such a thing should exist. how can the same plan produce two or more slightly different ships ?

 

 

My Example.

The British Navy board order 6 New Enterprise class 28 gun frigates (HMS Surprise ?) They want them built quickly so they send an order and the plans of the ship to each of the 6 Royal Navy Dockyards in England and request each make 1 vessel

 

Reference http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/the-royal-navy/research-guide-b5-royal-naval-dockyards

In the 17th and 18th centuries there were six Royal Navy dockyards in England, at Deptford, Woolwich, Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth and Plymouth. (There were also a number of outports in England and overseas yards, including Gibraltar, Halifax and Jamaica. )

 

Each Dockyard has its own suppliers of materials, its own labourforce and shipwrights. Each individual in particular the shipwright would have his own way of working even though following the same plans. The materials could be better quality in 3 yards while the others use wood less seasoned or carrying other imperfections (No two pieces of wood are identical, no two trees are identical etc). Some yards workforces may be more experienced so a better quality ship is created.

 

Finally it was not unnknown for a captain to be posted into a ship before it was launched. The captain could work with the local port Admiral and shipwright to modify how the vessel was built. Slightly heavier knees, wanting a bigger cabin area so partitions were planned in different locations, different Rudder.

 

Most frequently a captain was posted once the hull was complete and the masts and rigging were to be readied. At this point the Captain had a core of hands available to him and a great flexibility on which timber he would use for his masts, yards etc (Depending what was available). Would his standing and running rigging be of the best new quality or thrice roven stuff the shipyard were trying to fob off on the ship and charge new prices. The captain and his warrant officers would decide on mast and yard configuration, plan the rakes of masts. arrange the stays to their liking.

 

(The Navy yards were notoriously corrupt until the end of the 18th century mnaterials were scrimped, labour unskilled all to make the shipyards and port admirals an extra income at the expense of the Navy board)

 

So yes plans left the navy board the same, but by the time the ship was launched at each of the yards, there would be a great deal of variations that would have effected her handling abilities. Not least what weight of guns she carried and how the captain would prefer her trim to be maintained.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Crankey

[maturin]

Great post, Crankey.

People around the forum do in fact need convincing that these aren't like their fiberglass daysailers.

[Austrum]

I think for game play purposes, getting crazy with little details is a bad idea.  Too much realism can kill a game just as fast as too little realism.

 

That being said, I don't think there would be an issue with giving a little variation with something similar to PoTB with the Sleek, Mastercraft and Heavy classifications where depending on the materials you use in construction, you can impart some small personalizations into your ship.  However, more than 3-4 standard outcomes really is too much for the Devs to try to manage, not to mention ever variation is another thing the CPUs have to track and account for which can reduce resources needed for other more important things.

[Taki1980]

I dont know how they would do this if they dont improve the Sailing part.

[maturin]

I think for game play purposes, getting crazy with little details is a bad idea.  Too much realism can kill a game just as fast as too little realism.

 

That being said, I don't think there would be an issue with giving a little variation with something similar to PoTB with the Sleek, Mastercraft and Heavy classifications where depending on the materials you use in construction, you can impart some small personalizations into your ship.  However, more than 3-4 standard outcomes really is too much for the Devs to try to manage, not to mention ever variation is another thing the CPUs have to track and account for which can reduce resources needed for other more important things.

 

Translation: 'I don't understand what on earth the OP is about, therefore it must be some sort of dangerous witchcraft.'

 

Sorry for the snark, but your post irritates me. There is almost always a valid debate to be had on whether realism in a given feature conflicts makes gameplay too convoluted or difficult. But this really is not such a case.

 

1. We are talking about hidden stats governing vessel control, no more and no less. You can be a farmhand from Iowa who doesn't know a rudder from a rodeo and still play the game just the same.

2. These are features that add considerable value for people who are familiar with and passionate about sailing vessels. It will make the ships look and act more convincing, while providing the attentive player with advantages he can use. Therefore it fits the axiom of 'simple to learn, easy to master,' all without adding any new procedures, skills, buttons, UI, etc.

3. The example of PotBS argues for my proposal here. Ships in that game had many semi-magical properties, a host of different stats that determined their performance. By comparison, Naval Action's vessels seem to have fewer discrete characteristics. Coupled with the likely absence of the all-important outfittings, this game's ships will suffer from predictability and same-iness unless ideas like mine are implemented. This is thus not just a realism issue, but a requirement for having interesting and varied vessels.

4. While implementing these vessel characteristics requires a lot of work upfront, it is in no way taxing or difficult to manage as a system. It is literally as simple as giving each class of vessel a stat, and defining a range of +/- 2-15%. That's a single set of dice rolls, one time, when the ship is built. No bearing on the CPU at all. Almost every RPG-type MMO crunches far more numbers that that.

[Tettric]

If the devs have said it then I have faith that it'll be done. It'll probably only be worked on once we have the open world and genuine ownership of our ships, so we can actually get to know their personalities.

 

I remember going to RAF Shawbury and talking to the engineers about the Tucano.

Apparently the pilots love them but the engineers hate them because they are all very slightly different. One of the said you could line them up with their nose-wheels on the line between the taxiway and the runway but their noses wouldn't be lined up!

[Sarogus]

It isn't about mass production, it's about following specifications, something they were very well capable of during the period. Hence if a certain design proved particularly successful it was designated a class and a number of sister ships built to the same specifications were constructed.

 

 

 

So two Bellona class ships built to the same specs in the same shipyard won't sail pretty much the same? I understand that there might be small miniscule and unnoticable differences of course, but I must admit that I find it a bit hard to believe that two such ships wouldn't sail virtually the same - providing the materials used and worksmanship was the same. 

 

That having been said some references would be nice  

Its actually a perfectly reasonable possibility. For example, though slightly off topic, Nissan GTR engines for the R35's are each hand built in a sealed room. Each engine, even with our technology that provides extreme levels of accuracy and consistency, are all different. The varying levels of horsepower, fuel efficiency etc etc are all different for each engine. You talk of following specifications, the accuracy and length they go into producing a Nissan GTR engine is absurd and the specifications are well documented and virtually set in stone, yet, no two engines are the same.

So to build a ship as big and complex as the Bellona for example, even built at the same shipwright would have enormous differences. Even materials sourced from the same suppliers are all going to be varying degrees in quality, no piece of wood is the same. No matter the level of scrutiny and detail applied, no two ships would ever be the same. Proof is in the fact that even with our technology today, there are still differences.