Devs say every ship is unique. What characteristics can they have?

[Chilly Willy]

Ships should be built similar but not the same. A captain should be able to see the fitting out of his ship and add or remove certain items

If I am purchasing a ship that normally does not have bow chasers and I want to add 2 12lb chasers I should be able to reinforce the bow decking and frameworks to support them. I May loose some maneuverability but I've got me bow chasers

[maturin]

I'd like to add one 'hard' variation and one 'soft':

Favoured Tack. Fore-and-aft asymmetry leads to different performance on each tack, most noticeable when hard on the wind. Up to a knot difference in speed, c. 10 degrees difference till free (pointing high does you no good under square or gaff rig, the important angle is when the boat frees up and starts to drive), and noticeable difference in weather helm (in reality giving speed and crew fatigue benefits). Later on this asymmetry would be a built in feature of some racing yachts to mitigate or take maximum advantage of a vessel on stb being the stand on vessel, that on port tack the give way.

The soft/woolly variation is that of 'a happy ship' vs. 'a wrong'un'. It is not just a function of the personalities on board, but definitely a function of the vessel herself. Some had, having earned, a reputuation as killers, others of looking after their crew. Now I'm far from religious or superstitious guy, but for whatever the real-world reasons, even just confirmation bias, the effects are very real. Reduced morale, slower work speed, increased maintenance costs etc are the real world symptoms, reverse them for the effects of a happy vessel.

Baggy

Great suggestion, I added the first one to the OP.

 

The second does not easily translate into videogame stats, I don't think. I'd have to give it some thought.

 

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention that all these stats and attributes are HIDDEN to the player. As Admin says, maybe you have the best upwind sailor in the fleet but never noticed.

[Sir. Cunningham]

Ships should be built similar but not the same. A captain should be able to see the fitting out of his ship and add or remove certain items

If I am purchasing a ship that normally does not have bow chasers and I want to add 2 12lb chasers I should be able to reinforce the bow decking and frameworks to support them. I May loose some maneuverability but I've got me bow chasers

 

I think we can all agree that would be the way to go

[AKPyrate]

I think the second one can relate to stats, possibly by having a 'ship reputation' somewhere in there.  Things like battle outcomes, good maintenance, number of casualties during a battle, damage from storms, etc. can effect the 'ship reputation' meter either up or down, and that meter then affects morale or maintenance if it's high or low enough.  

 

Also, I like the idea of various differences being hidden from the player and having to figure them out in the game.  We don't need to get in to customizing ships out of the yard.  Just have the general stats, plus or minus a small random percentage in each category.  The differences should be rather minor, but that extra .1 kt might just make the difference in a battle, or that little extra hull strength.  Other modifiers, such as changing armament or copper plating the bottom should have known effects on whatever your stats are (maybe less speed/maneuverability/reload times but stronger broadside with changing from 12 lbers to 18 lbers or increased speed and decreased need for maintenance if you buy expensive copper bottoms).  That way, the ship itself is unique, but then there are additional modifications that can have an effect.  Heck, buying pretty-work, such as a figurehead or gilt paint on the transom might improve morale and thus crew's gusto in battle.  In the end, a tricked out lucky ship should have an easier time taking out an unlucky 'stock' ship of the same class, but make it close enough that the battle outcome isn't a given, and player skill could easily turn the tide.

[Johny Reb]

There should be tradeoffs, not "mods".

 

Like POTBS, but not as much as an advantage.

 

e.g. if something increases your speed at x angle, it should decrease it in another area, by the same amount, and not improve it.

 

also, make them very very small mods if any at all, otherwise the sim is completely gone if we see a guy running around with 16lbers that do more damage then 24s

I absolutely hate this idea. I hated the dynamic that I had to give up something to get something all the time. Sometimes with these ships it makes sense: Heavier ship due to bigger guns means a slower ship so you increase spike potential for a loss of speed. I'm fine with that. But lets say a narrower bow and stiffer structure allows me to sail closer to the wind... why would that mean that my off wind speed should suffer. Don't turn every advantage into a disadvantage at the same time.

[Johny Reb]

I dont think its in the interest of the game to make every ship wich is newly build out of the shipyard different.

 

Ships should be identical when they first get to water. At least if you tell the shipqright to build it as such.

So two captains can order the identical ship. But we may as well be able to tell the shipbuilder to build the ship  with my likings.

Do I like better sailing characteristics or do I want to be heavier?

Devs did say no two ships will be the same. They said that there will be hidden quirks in each ship that can only be discovered after sailing the vessel in different conditions. They said that you may end up selling a ship that you think is mediocre but the buyer finds these hidden characteristics and discovers he has a really good ship.

 

Someone else said that the devs said that ships would come off the drydock the same as the next (with regard to the quality of the wood used). I'm really disappointed to hear that. I must have missed that post. The idea that I could get into a ship that I really like a little sooner by ordering one that is built out of cheaper wood is what I was hoping for. It encourages more fights, leaves you wondering what quality ship you are up against, and expands the economic potential greatly. Oh well, I guess I'll still enjoy the game

[Hyperion74]

This discussion is very interesting indeed. It leads me to wonder just how this mechanic will work. Isn't it a lot of code to write to make every ship different. Will it be a random stat generator that will vary each vessel a wee bit. That sounds very intriguing to me. There will be ways to adjust this as well, it seems. Also when a captain hones his skills, he gets better performance from his ship. This only increases my desire to sail. 

[maturin]

It's a lot of code to set up a system of handling characteristics like in the OP. But a random stat generator is a feature of every simple browser-based RPG out there.

[BungeeLemming]

So you basically say we should build our ships and afterwards we will see if we ve been lucky or not.

 

Just follow my thoughts please:

I want a ship with the very stats I need. So and such good at going close haul. It needs this and that tweak for the handling et cetera. So.

After I ordered it (with the exact needs I have in mind) there is some kind of  "RNJesus" wich decides: Yep or No.. your ship will ne likeeee.. THIS.

But "THIS" may not be the characteristic you wanted in the first place.

There two options that may happen to me now: Either I am happy because the "RNJesus" gave me an even better ship or I am desperately ragequitting because Im screwed over by the game mechanics.

And I could do nothing to prevent it. (<-thats the bad part imo)

(And I swear I WILL be ragequitting if I ever see such a gamemechanic ingame wich screws me over).

 

 

By all means and porpose. The game should be balanced. Wich means that when I order two same class ships with the same stats they better be identical.

After the whole process of building there is enough customization to be done. (guns, rigging. enough tweaks to the hull etc.)

 

 

So.

What I dont mind having in game:

Some sort of ship individualization bevore building. Like I described in my post. I need a ship of certain size with some key characteristics. The shipbuilder does his job et voilà. I have the ship I desired.

 

 

also:

 

Devs did say no two ships will be the same

I think thats out of context. (in my understanding) They said two 38 gunners wont be the same.

I did not interpret this as two ships of the same kind cant be different.

 

edit: proven to be wrong

[Bixol]

we plan to have unique ships stat wise. I mean literally - your ship will be different from my ship even if it is the same class and same model and same sails. In addition to that some vessels will have hidden bonuses that you will only uncover by sailing in certain conditions. or you might never uncover them - sell the ship and never find out it was a gem.

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/1181-ships-in-development/?p=25514

 

this is what we know (posted by Admin), everything else is speculation

 

still, it's a fact that there won't be 2 ships that are the same to 100%

[BungeeLemming]

phew.. I just hope they dont screw me/us over.

Like really. I dont want to experience what I described.

Keep the RNG as low as possible.

[Johny Reb]

Well I agree with you to a point. All ships should come with basic stats that we can rely on and the variations are always positive to different degrees. This way you know you have a solid well built ship from the get go but may find that your ship is a real "gem" after sailing.

[Mirones]

Mirones....the devs (apparently) have already stated there will be these minor differences, so if that's the case we leave as is and accept it as realistic. Otherwise I agree if they are not there already then there are many far more important things to do first. But whatever, lets NOT refer to them as Mods because that suggests all kinds of things which should have NO place in NA (IMHO of course )

read again and notice that i said there are more important things left to do befor geting to that point

[Edward Vernon]

If what the devs are talking about here is 4 or 5 degrees difference in their ability to point up, or a tendency to sail a half a knot faster on a beam reach, or to be just that little bit stiffer giving you a marginally more stable gun platform in a stiff breeze then why not?

 

I take your point Bungee but I would be prepared to bet that there was no shipbuilder at that time who could build you a ship the would sail 30 off the wind precisely if that's what you specified. He would probably to the best of his ability build you ship that would point well as opposed to not, however I imagine that would be as far as it went.

 

Moreover I doubt many of us, if any, (and I certainly include myself here) are likely to know now exactly what we might want from a ship as yet. Unless of course we all went totally silly and wanted the fastest, highest pointing, stiffest, strongest, most gunned uber ketch out there. I mean, who wouldn't?

[Edward Vernon]

Mirones (for some reason I can't copy quotes......bloody annoying) read my post again and note I agreed with you that if this has yet to be implemented then it should not take precedent over other more important tasks for the devs.

[akd]

I don't think anyone is talking about a system in which one Surprise is crap and the next superb, but rather the sorts of minor variations that the average player wouldn't even notice in normal play. However, I don't think there should be a dice roll that results in a flat out better in every way ship. The minor variations should all involve benefits with trade-offs of some sort. Not entirely historical of course, but would capture the essence of individual character and discovery through hands-on sailing. Even if you find you don't like the little quirks of your ship, there should be someone out there willing to pay a premium for those same characteristics.

Now of course there are the stat-driven, spreadsheet players that cannot tolerate a system that doesn't let them micromanage every characteristic, and these types tend to be loud out of all proportion to their actual representation in a game's population, but hopefully the devs won't be swayed by their intolerance for random variation and unknown attributes. Discovering the quirks of your very own personal ship through experience would be immensely fun and really set the game apart. Anyways, these same types will eventually rage quit after a loss, because when they lose it is always because of an unfair game mechanic, never their own fault.

But they'll be back, as you are not going to find this sort of gameplay anywhere else.

[Leviathan]

I'm all for the variations in ships to add some spice to the mix. I do wonder however how extreme the variations will be. If they are so minor that they are basically unnoticeable there's no point in having them to begin with. I think they need to be prominent enough that they can be discovered after some game play by the observant captain.

However, If a new player acquires their first Surprise in the game they won't have experience with another Surprise to compare it to and may never notice the differences. I'm not sure how they will ever tell the difference without having access to a ship of the same type. I guess that would require the player to buy multiple (assuming we can own multiple of the same ship type) versions of the same ship for testing purposes, or sail against fellow captains in the same ship in testing maneuvers.

[AKPyrate]

To find out the differences, play against players with the same ships, or even better is to play with others having the same ships.  That way, you can race each other to the battle, figure out who tacks faster, etc.  Friendly competition on the way towards deadly combat...

[Johny Reb]

Mirones (for some reason I can't copy quotes......bloody annoying) read my post again and note I agreed with you that if this has yet to be implemented then it should not take precedent over other more important tasks for the devs.

just press "Quote" in the post you want to quote and then delete the part of the post you dont want. Try that if you havn't already

[Destraex]

i think that Bellona should just be he "class".

You name the ship yourself when you purchase it and then it becomes "albatross of the bellona class". It is not necessarily the same as all the others out of the dock. Some characteristics could be a little different.

 

good players will know for instance that a line of bellona class will have to reduce speed in general to keep the line together due to thee slight differences due to build quality, random quality traits from the build, recent carrening, copper bottom or not, crew skill etc. Problem wil be that we cannot finely adjustt sail.

[Saintduiex]

You name the ship yourself when you purchase it and then it becomes "albatross of the bellona class". It is not necessarily the same as all the others out of the dock. Some characteristics could be a little different.

 

Agreed.

And when you order, you order the size of cannon/carronade, perhaps chasers or not. When you go to take delivery you go into a "sea trials" phase where perhaps you get to possibly reduce or add a little bit of ballast to make it lighter or heavier, sail it and go back and add/remove more till you are pleased with whatever perceived performance you get from that. Reduction in ballast could possibly make room for some addition rations or sail to allow you to stay out longer before being forced to restock or repair at a port..

 

Then again, this idea of ballast adjustment just might not be very realistic, its just a blue-sky idea. When I bought my 456 new from the factory the only option I got on any major ship design was shallow draft keel or not. I defer to the sailing masters on here who know better.

 

In any case, I think this has been one of the better discussions and I have enjoyed reading it.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Bear in mind ballast at the time was stones or other dense, heavy objects. It was quite possible (I think!), given room to unload stores and supplies to adjust overall weight and even shift ballast around to bring the ship more by the head of stern. Stores also could be stowed to some degree to adjust the ships trim.

[AKPyrate]

Ballast at this time was nearly all adjustable.  Many cargo boats sailed with minimal ballast, or without any at all, as the cargo was stored in a way to make it stable.  If a ship was sailing 'in ballast', that meant that they had no cargo (which did happen, especially if they just unloaded in a port and then wanted to load goods from a different port due to profit margins or contracts-many waterfronts were built on ballast stones discarded from ships).  Stores themselves were ballast and could be stored as such.  Over the course of a long voyage, the ship's draft and trim would change constantly, with stores being consumed and taken on (water is heavy!).  Still, some boats were just better sailors or had reputations for being safe ships, regardless of changes to officers or loading out.  Wood is not a medium that can produce exact copies for things like boats.  Additionally, shipyard personnel aren't always exact.  Look at a house being built some time and you'll be able to find lots of areas that are not quite plumb, but good enough (and often hidden with drywall).  These are professional builders, just like they'd have in shipyards.

[Saintduiex]

Sounds like cargo and ballast would have an effect on ship performance. So, officers and crew proficient at loading and adjusting weight might one of the skills that are measured and improved with training and experience...?

[AKPyrate]

Yep.  But then again, officers proficient at sailing could have just as much effect on speed.  Cargo stowage might have an effect on how stiff the boat is, and thus keep her from rolling as much, yet not be too jerky, and thus improve the gunnery.