Grapeshot - Broken?

[MikeCK]

It is my understanding that grape shot balls are so much larger than canister shot because it was originally intended to be used against rigging. The balls had to have enough mass to break blocks, yard arms, cordage, etc. Like the German '88 in WW2, someone found that an alternative use was more effective. Wondering if grape continued to be used as anti-personnel (instead of canister) for the reasons above: it could penetrate the rigging and cause splintering if it his wood whereas canister balls would just inbed in the wood?

[Cmdr RideZ]

Deck thing is good to know, but not sure if that really works with 2 deckers.

 

Just to clarify, in case it is not obvious.

 

If crew of 280 is divided on 2 decks -> 140 per deck, 50% on top most deck.

4 decker -> 250 per deck, 25% on top most deck.

 

So 2 deckers are suffering way more from this system.  Some specific percentage of crew per deck could be considered to fix this.  Ship type could define how many men there are on the deck, and the amount of men currently handling the sails and weather deck cannons.  When player is repairing his sails, this would increase the number of men on the deck, and make it even more vulnerable for grapes.

 

Also, if you have 250 men on one deck, and you have 125 casualties on that deck.  The following crew damage could be divided by 2, as 125/250 = 50%.

 

This means that it makes sense to grape, but the possible maximum damage is decreasing.  This way grapes will be disabling, not deciding ammunition type.  Not deciding, as the crew damage goes smaller and smaller, and in the end are not worth it any more.

 

In same way disabling, as the chains are.  You can win a battle by shooting endless amount of chains to sails, but after that you have to board or use balls to sink it.

[Loco Bandito]

I graped a guy from over a ridiculous range. I had it set to 250m, and I was using carronades. How can this be?

[admin]

And then one could wonder how a cutter was able to carry so much grapeshots and cannon balls.

 

What was the usual amount depending of the ship rate?

 

that is a good point

 

Leander ran out of ammo during the fight with Generoux. 

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more. 

Actually it does matter....

 

 

 

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person. 

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death. 

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings. 

[Eishen]

 ...

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more. 

...

 

Or maybe limit the on battle volleys only (the way doble charge is done)

[maturin]

that is a good point

 

Leander ran out of ammo during the fight with Generoux. 

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more. 

 

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person. 

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death. 

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings. 

Grape should penetrate the quarterdeck and forecastle barricades, except for heavily-built vessels like Constitution. 

[Nash]

that is a good point

 

Leander ran out of ammo during the fight with Generoux. 

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more.

 

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person. 

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death. 

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings. 

 

Not if you will have your full ammo back after a battle. But you will need to do a bit of setting when you are in port: how many grape, how many chain, etc...

 

oh and If I want to hold more ammo, I can use the space in my hold as well.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Nash

[Ned Loe]

that is a good point

 

Leander ran out of ammo during the fight with Generoux. 

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more. 

 

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person. 

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death. 

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings. 

Then add (great quantity) of basic shot similar to potbs when players ran out of limited ammo. Basic shot will reset it's quantity after each battle.

 

Simply smaller and lighter ball that can be stacked with much greater quantity. It will still do damage , but with penalty. Add limited ammo, so I can start my business selling big ballz. 

[MikeCK]

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person.

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death.

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings.

I would think a 1-2lb iron ball would pass through multiple crewman as well. One grape ball could penetrate a railing, kill a crewman, pass through him and strike another. I simply .69 caliber ball would imbed in the railing or the first person. I'm assuming so...simply based on the momentum it would have

[Loco Bandito]

that is a good point

Leander ran out of ammo during the fight with Generoux.

I think it is an interesting venue to explore. But it will force players to return to ports a lot more.

I meant It does not matter when it hits the person.

small metal ball hitting the sailor or large metal ball - does not matter. It will be a casualty or death.

Grape does not penetrate armor if you have 100% planking it can only pass through ports, windows, or other openings.

From a gaming point of view my boat had 100% armor all around and all the enemy did was grape my crew down to 40. I was under the impression a boat with armor would be harder to grape down. Take 50% off and easier to grape as the boat is missing armor?

[maturin]

From a gaming point of view my boat had 100% armor all around and all the enemy did was grape my crew down to 40. I was under the impression a boat with armor would be harder to grape down. Take 50% off and easier to grape as the boat is missing armor?

Unless this was a Niagara, I'm sure that there was some skillful shooting involved.

[Fuzzyhead12]

Being the ofended bucentaure myself.... ...    I felt as if my sailor were making a queue to go to stern (perhaps to wc?) having turns to expose to the cutters shots

 

my money is on maturin comments...

 

 

 

 

 

and 

 

 

 

 

 

As for  the fight itself ... Liquid showed great skill in maintaining himself out of gun angle , other than rear chasers ofc....or at least more skill than myself in demasting him   (thought finally managed riping his sails and run)..    credit too to your kite partner (Thirdlegiswood?) able maintaining kite distance and fire discipline almost full fight 

 

ugh grape flying though the poopdeck, not a nice though

[Cmdr RideZ]

In one battle, yesterday. We were ganked on Frigate, unfortunately.

 

Well, 3vs1, so he really did not have any change.  I was not really playing a lot, circling around, firing a bit here and there.

 

Suddenly I noticed that he had almost no crew left.  I was thinking that when did he lose his crew.  A guy in a Trinco graped his deck, and told that one broadside 90 casualties.  Do not have screenshots to proof, just what I was told.

 

2 decker, 280 crew members, if the split is equal, that would be 140 men on weather deck.

 

Are they like standing in a formation on the deck?

[Loco Bandito]

Grape is broken.

[maturin]

In one battle, yesterday. We were ganked on Frigate, unfortunately.

 

Well, 3vs1, so he really did not have any change.  I was not really playing a lot, circling around, firing a bit here and there.

 

Suddenly I noticed that he had almost no crew left.  I was thinking that when did he lose his crew.  A guy in a Trinco graped his deck, and told that one broadside 90 casualties.  Do not have screenshots to proof, just what I was told.

 

2 decker, 280 crew members, if the split is equal, that would be 140 men on weather deck.

 

Are they like standing in a formation on the deck?

Could be the boarding prep workaround.

[Fenris]

I dont think that Grape is broken. Just like few other players already mentioned,the possibility of sitting behind in smaller ship,and killing crew,no matter how long does it take, is just not realistic. Such big ships arent able to turn, and put a broadside of whatever into a smaller ship,unless the smaller ship makes a mistake.

This btw,concerns ALL smaller ships, like Privateer or Rattlesnake,and this tactic(1 behind,1sails) is already very popular among all nations.

Well few players here had the idea of using Marines or Crew to just shoot 20 Crew of Basic Cutter down.It would work,but what happens when you take Rattle or Privateer instead? same thing happens,with more Crew.

Sailing very close behind a big,poorly maneuverable ship,without realistic,fair possibility of defense, is almost an exploit,and therefore it should be solved.

And those propositions which have been already made(Muskets,Grenades,whatever),are imo, considerable,good approaches to this matter.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Fenris

[Atreides]

Being in a gros ventre, tagged by a surprise or trinc in a running fight, I have found turn trim, carros and grape is an effective counter. I have manual sailed as they were running for a s stern rake and gotten alongside to grape down on the deck. Repeat this how ever many times as needed and I have repelled, or even turned and capped the enemy ship 3 out of 4 times.

I'm just out minding my own business delivering emergency tobacco to ports in need, think of the children! Think of the medkits!

[IndianaGeoff]

Being in a gros ventre, tagged by a surprise or trinc in a running fight, I have found turn trim, carros and grape is an effective counter. I have manual sailed as they were running for a s stern rake and gotten alongside to grape down on the deck. Repeat this how ever many times as needed and I have repelled, or even turned and capped the enemy ship 3 out of 4 times.

I'm just out minding my own business delivering emergency tobacco to ports in need, think of the children! Think of the medkits!

 

The children want to thank you.

[IndianaGeoff]

I dont think that Grape is broken. Just like few other players already mentioned,the possibility of sitting behind in smaller ship,and killing crew,no matter how long does it take, is just not realistic. Such big ships arent able to turn, and put a broadside of whatever into a smaller ship,unless the smaller ship makes a mistake.

This btw,concerns ALL smaller ships, like Privateer or Rattlesnake,and this tactic(1 behind,1sails) is already very popular among all nations.

Well few players here had the idea of using Marines or Crew to just shoot 20 Crew of Basic Cutter down.It would work,but what happens when you take Rattle or Privateer instead? same thing happens,with more Crew.

Sailing very close behind a big,poorly maneuverable ship,without realistic,fair possibility of defense, is almost an exploit,and therefore it should be solved.

And those propositions which have been already made(Muskets,Grenades,whatever),are imo, considerable,good approaches to this matter.

 

I am in favor of a game where sailing a First rate by itself is an invitation to a disaster.  1st rates are huge beasts, but they have to sail in a fleet to be safe.  I would be in favor of mechanics that make a full fleet of first rates an invitation for disaster in port battles.

 

Things like making it impossible for first rates to initiate a combat (a fleet or group has to do it with a smaller ship) and impossible to turn one down or flee.

 

I am not sure how to do it in port battles, maybe a ship weighting system?  Or a auto gun boat assault from the port with ships that first rates cannot hit when they get close.  Only frigates and below can hit them.

Edited September 23, 2016 by IndianaGeoff

[Cecil Selous]

I wouldn't call grapeshot broken but imho it is too effective when there is still a good amount of armor left.

I just had a battle in my Cecilia against a Trinc. I had trouble to damage him but got 1 side down to 30 - 40% while he hit very hard and after maybe 20 minutes I was at about 40% on each side.

That's when he began to shóot grape at me. Before I realised it I was over 100 men down (1 - 2 broadsides with somecrew loss from former broadsides with ball shot). It seemed like most of my men were standing on the deck trying to catch those balls and please don't tell me he shot everything through my gun ports. I gained some distance to repair sails, ship and reload guns and went back in because escape was impossible anyway. I also noticed that grape is moderatly effective at range. One of his broadsides was from around 200 m and still killed about 25 of my men (sure if you lob them at the deck it hurts but maybe it's a bit too accurate from that distance. I tried grape on him then and also his armor was higher than mine I managed to kill more than I thought. In the end and after 50 minutes I had to surrender because I wasn't combat effective anymore (sails down, crew down, almost no reload and I took a last devastating rake).

 

It was a good battle and I had a lot of fun and I am not complaining about the outcome.  Maybe this is also just an error of perception on my part because I lost but that grape damage felt too high.

Imho grape should be the last thing you do before attempting to board and of course in a raking an unarmored stern (and windows on full health stern) but not shooting through the hull and killing dozens of men and thus being more effective than actual ball shot. That's the main problem maybe. The balance between ball and grape when there is still a lot of armor.

Sure there a large holes in the hull when you are at 40% armor, but shouldn't ball also do way more crew damage then?

 

On the other hand, this was a good foretaste of the higher crew loss from penetrating ball shot which the devs proposed a while ago and I voted for testing this, so why do I complain actually? 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Cecil Selous

[Werewolf]

THat is the other thing I was wondering where is the stern gun on that ship?   I had a small ship on the rear of my ship this morning and I was chucnk 64 lbrs at him and it was very effective of getting him off my rear.  I been seeing a lot of ships that should have them not have them when we capture ships.

Some people leave off stern chasers and top deck guns on things like the reno for extra speed.

[admin]

I wouldn't call grapeshot broken but imho it is too effective when there is still a good amount of armor left.

I just had a battle in my Cecilia against a Trinc. I had trouble to damage him but got 1 side down to 30 - 40% while he hit very hard and after maybe 20 minutes I was at about 40% on each side.

That's when he began to shóot grape at me. Before I realised it I was over 100 men down (1 - 2 broadsides with somecrew loss from former broadsides with ball shot). It seemed like most of my men were standing on the deck trying to catch those balls and please don't tell me he shot everything through my gun ports. I gained some distance to repair sails, ship and reload guns and went back in because escape was impossible anyway. I also noticed that grape is moderatly effective at range. One of his broadsides was from around 200 m and still killed about 25 of my men (sure if you lob them at the deck it hurts but maybe it's a bit too accurate from that distance.

 

 

1. Crew is split into several colliders (2 for cutter, 12-14 on first rates) placing it on several decks or parts of the ship. if you killed all crew on top deck you still have to shoot into lower decks to continue killing crew.
2. Grape does full damage if it hits unprotected crew collider (through ports, windows, or through unprotected areas on top deck or quarter deck).
3. Grape damage can be stopped by a broadside planking. 
4. If it is 100% grape does not penetrate
5. At 0 % some grape penetrates and delivers full damage
6. But if it hits planking at low angles it does not penetrate even if planking is 0
7. Grape also does not penetrate at 250m at any planking and does not do any damage to unprotected colliders.
8. Grape damage is universal - meaning it does not matter if you hit a person artery with a small bullet or a large bullet = it will still be a casualty.
9. Grape can become bigger if it hits multiple crew members (for example from stern or bow shots) but it is blocked by any other ship parts, pumps, masts, cannons)

Grape mechanics was introduced long before release to provide some consistency with its damage. 

Previously broadside armor completely limited grape damage which led to very very inconsistent results ranging from 0 crew damage in 10 broadsides to 10-20% crew damage in 1 broadside (if all shots were lucky to get through ports).

[shaeberle84]

Grape mechanics was introduced long before release to provide some consistency with its damage. 

Previously broadside armor completely limited grape damage which led to very very inconsistent results ranging from 0 crew damage in 10 broadsides to 10-20% crew damage in 1 broadside (if all shots were lucky to get through ports).

 

 

I liked the old system.

[Loco Bandito]

• Crew is split into several colliders (2 for cutter, 12-14 on first rates) placing it on several decks or parts of the ship. if you killed all crew on top deck you still have to shoot into lower decks to continue killing crew.
• Grape does full damage if it hits unprotected crew collider (through ports, windows, or through unprotected areas on top deck or quarter deck).
• Grape damage can be stopped by a broadside planking.
• If it is 100% grape does not penetrate
• At 0 % some grape penetrates and delivers full damage
• But if it hits planking at low angles it does not penetrate even if planking is 0
• Grape also does not penetrate at 250m at any planking and does not do any damage to unprotected colliders.
• Grape damage is universal - meaning it does not matter if you hit a person artery with a small bullet or a large bullet = it will still be a casualty.
• Grape can become bigger if it hits multiple crew members (for example from stern or bow shots) but it is blocked by any other ship parts, pumps, masts, cannons)

Grape mechanics was introduced long before release to provide some consistency with its damage.

Previously broadside armor completely limited grape damage which led to very very inconsistent results ranging from 0 crew damage in 10 broadsides to 10-20% crew damage in 1 broadside (if all shots were lucky to get through ports).

I've been graped down during a port battle with 95% full armor and extra planking.

My point is if they are graping the weather deck then how did I lose Nearly 500 crew? Did they all run up the top? The grape doesn't make sense. Maybe grape should be limited like double charge.

At the moment port battles have become a grape fest and you can't tell me in history 25v25 went at it graping each other?