Powderhorn Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 My impression comes down largely to cost. Frigates are cheaper to build, and can be built in a larger variety of cities, whereas ships of the line are more expensive and need more advanced shipyards to construct. If you have 10 frigates and 5 ships of the line, odds are you're going to keep the ships of the line as a home defense fleet and use frigates as scouting vessels which can look into more nooks and crannies anyways. (My own impressions only.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, Powderhorn said: If you have 10 frigates and 5 ships of the line They are already built. Why send the frigates ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibbler (Retired) Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) Frigates being faster and more maneuverable than SOL's were more suited to protecting trade routes and fleet escort/scouts. "Following these are the frigates, a widely used and often misunderstood term. Officially, since the 1750’s, it meant any ship of 28 to 48 guns but, in practice, it could refer to a ship with as few as 20 guns. These were the pursuit ships, tasked with hunting down enemy convoys, merchant fleets, and lone warships." " Below frigates were post ships, of 20-26 guns, essentially small frigates. These were not intended for fleet actions, or even single ship actions, but protected shipping lanes. " https://www.warhistoryonline.com/napoleon/many-types-ships-napoleonic-wars-m.html Edited February 9, 2018 by Dibbler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietjenoob Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Hethwill said: A new question (kind of related also with the game reality ). - Why did powerful naval nations deploy long range chase frigates to cover the seas instead of more ships of the line ? What aspects made one the obvious choice over the other ? What made a frigate more suitable for that task ? It is also is a bit depended, besides the frigates u also had armed traders in the Voc and Wic u had tradingships up to 68 guns which are use to be used together with the frigates. And like Powderhorn says they are also relatively cost efficient and if people needs to be trained not necessarily, but they can be of good use trainingvessels although combatgroups tend to fleet training (manouvering and shootingpractise whilst at sea when nothing is going on to get the general skill up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 5 hours ago, Hethwill said: They are already built. Why send the frigates ? 20 SoLs are a battlefleet. A battlefleet makes you a naval power and lets you defend your coast. Without a battlefleet you are naked. 20 lone SoLs can't fight a war. 20 frigates are just a gaggle of light warships, and the battlefleet can operate without them. So you send them out individually. 20 lone frigates can fight a guerre de course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 Gotcha. Why not send individual SOLs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hethwill said: Gotcha. Why not send individual SOLs ? Because you dilute the strength of your battlefleet. And disregarding all consideration of cost, value and maintenance, a 74 is still slower in most weather, especially close-hauled where most chases are decided. Plus it's just overkill. An East Indiaman worth millions will likely still surrender to a frigate. Two frigates can attack a convoy better than a single 74. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 Thank you all Snappy salute. Next question please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jean-Luc Picard Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Originally it was about raiding trade routes not defending them, and for obvious practical reasons they stayed more efficient as such. Also one part that is usually overlooked it that they are independent whereas a ship of the line is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubasso Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) Cannons had no aim as for as I know, so (apart from the personal experience of gunners) how they aim to a specific target? Was there some mechanical or whatever help? Any metallic graduate bars maybe? Or simply they used deck line fire as they were line soldier, hoping that "send" 20-30 gun balls, some of them will hit something? More: a ship is definitely not steady in high seas, was there some "trick" to solve the issue for aiming? (whining to Devs was not an option, I suppose) I have another question, but I keep it for next time Edited February 10, 2018 by blubasso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Jean-Luc Picard Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, blubasso said: Cannons had no aim as for as I know, so (apart from the personal experience of gunners) how they aim to a specific target? Was there some mechanical or whatever help? Any metallic graduate bars maybe? Or simply they used deck line fire as they were line soldier, hoping that "send" 20-30 gun balls, some of them will hit something? More: a ship is definitely not steady in high seas, was there some "trick" to solve the issue? (whining to Devs was not an option, I suppose) There weren't really any aiming help, they didn't quiete use deck line fire neither, everybody reloaded and shot as fast as he could usually. Aiming was more a question of xp, like if you would kick a football or play pétanque , no aiming help, but do it a few times and you are good enough. Remember that combat was usually pretty close rather than at maximum distances. So yeah reload speed. Especially since after each shot the recoil didn't leave you much time to re-aim. And most cannons weren't that easy to move anyway even if you were to aim. As to steadiness, playing with the ship speed and direction. Edited February 10, 2018 by Captain Jean-Luc Picard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Lancelot Holland Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Captain Jean-Luc Picard said: There weren't really any aiming help, they didn't quiete use deck line fire neither, everybody reloaded and shot as fast as he could usually. Aiming was more a question of xp, like if you would kick a football or play pétanque , no aiming help, but do it a few times and you are good enough. Remember that combat was usually pretty close rather than at maximum distances. So yeah reload speed. Especially since after each shot the recoil didn't leave you much time to re-aim. And most cannons weren't that easy to move anyway even if you were to aim. As to steadiness, playing with the ship speed and direction. A good explanation, I would add that the Royal Navy tended to train much more than other Navies, the principle was to put a heavier weight of shot in the air than their enemies and hope for a higher hit and damage rate, particularly when it came down to reducing crew numbers, it was faster reloading that achieved that aim. Combat ranges could be as close as Pistol range, and the carnage on and below decks was horrific to say the least. Hit first, hit hard, and keep on hitting was pretty much the gunner's mantra and if they could keep more balls in flight than the enemy then the chances of scoring more hits than the enemy was achievable, the principle was proved to be folly less then a century after the Napoleonic era ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samba_liten Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 16 hours ago, Hethwill said: Gotcha. Why not send individual SOLs ? In addition to the answers already given, also consider the number of crew on an SOL; it was difficult to provide sustenance for a crew that large without frequent re-supplies. Hence the SOL was rather short-ranged, for lackk of a better term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 The other way round: Most SoLs could store up to 8 - 9 months provisions if needed. Only large frigates like La Forte or Connie could take equal amounts for their crew (and some smaller British ones :p) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubasso Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 (edited) Thank you for the answers to my cannons question. Now another question: was in the sailing age well known the concept of "Task Force"? I mean a "standard" fleet which within there were certain ships with own role (protecting big ones, tanks, flanking ships...). Of course I know, a fleet was assembled for a certain purpose, depending of purposes in mission, but I wonder if there was some standardized places within the fleet. Edited February 10, 2018 by blubasso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 2 hours ago, blubasso said: Thank you for the answers to my cannons question. Now another question: was in the sailing age well known the concept of "Task Force"? I mean a "standard" fleet which within there were certain ships with own role (protecting big ones, tanks, flanking ships...). Of course I know, a fleet was assembled for a certain purpose, depending of purposes in mission, but I wonder if there was some standardized places within the fleet. No really. In fleet battles there was only one tactical role: ship of the line. First and Second Rates were larger, but just placed in important places in the line. Big ships didn't need protection (the formation was the protection), and flanking wasn't really a thing. Too weak as an individual maneuver, too complex to pull off with a group. Frigates repeated signals, towed disabled ships out of combat, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 12 hours ago, blubasso said: Cannons had no aim as for as I know, so (apart from the personal experience of gunners) how they aim to a specific target? Was there some mechanical or whatever help? Any metallic graduate bars maybe? Or simply they used deck line fire as they were line soldier, hoping that "send" 20-30 gun balls, some of them will hit something? More: a ship is definitely not steady in high seas, was there some "trick" to solve the issue for aiming? (whining to Devs was not an option, I suppose) I have another question, but I keep it for next time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said: Why ships use a spanker sail instead of a normal square sail? The spanker can be bigger than the square sail that would replace it Useful for close-hauled and beam reach sailing Helps force the bow into the wind and control rotation Can be used to hold position in a storm But more importantly a square mizzen course would not be very useful. When sailing downwind, it would just blanket the main and fore courses, which are larger and more important. Upwind, the spanker is superior. Even the mainsail was often furled when sailing downwind, because it disrupted airflow to the fore course (which exerts a useful lifting effect on the bow). 1850s clipper ships started carrying mizzen courses, but would only use them when appropriate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said: Could you explain/describe this, please? Sounds interesting. Maybe something more about sailing in the storm. #1 storm tactic is sailing very slowly to windward under reduced sail. Either with a close-reefed main topsail or a small lower staysail made of thicker canvas. Reefing the mizzen sail (spanker) right down in another option, but not the best one for most ships. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haratik Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 What was the difference between a squadron, a flotilla, and a fleet in the game's time period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietjenoob Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Haratik said: What was the difference between a squadron, a flotilla, and a fleet in the game's time period? The difference is in that are the amount of ships used, the type of in that group and sometimes also the Flagship type, Squadrons are primairly frigates and corvettes and other small ships. Although the English used squadrons to indicate a Combatgroup of a Mainly SoL group but it also slightly differs from the regions they were operating in Flotilla's could be a combatgroup with a mix of frigates and SoL up to 2nd serving as a flagship Fleet are groups of ships constitend of at least 20-25 ships with main SoL with a support group of frigates the exact numbers of each type could vary between nations Edited February 12, 2018 by pietjenoob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surcouf Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) In France we divide as follows: A squadron is subdivided into three divisions bearing the color to which it is attached. A detachment is attached to a division, the division is attached to a squadron, which is attached to a naval army. So a group of ships and named according to the number of ships that compose it. 3 squadrons = a naval army 1 squadron = from 9 to 26 vessels 1 division = from 3 to 8 1 detachment = 2 The word "fleet" is used (always in France) for: - a considerable number of merchant ships of the same nation - if the fleet is escorted, it takes the name of convoy - in the navy, the word "fleet" means all floating vessels, near to fight or can be near quickly. We are talking about the "Mediterranean fleet", "fleet of the North", "fleet of the Pacific", etc. Edited February 12, 2018 by Surcouf 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Surcouf said: well It would be nice to know what kind of( name) structure we use in naval action actually or just imaginary : naval action structure Edited February 12, 2018 by Thonys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haratik Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 On 2/12/2018 at 6:19 AM, Surcouf said: In France we divide as follows: A squadron is subdivided into three divisions bearing the color to which it is attached. A detachment is attached to a division, the division is attached to a squadron, which is attached to a naval army. So a group of ships and named according to the number of ships that compose it. 3 squadrons = a naval army 1 squadron = from 9 to 26 vessels 1 division = from 3 to 8 1 detachment = 2 The word "fleet" is used (always in France) for: - a considerable number of merchant ships of the same nation - if the fleet is escorted, it takes the name of convoy - in the navy, the word "fleet" means all floating vessels, near to fight or can be near quickly. We are talking about the "Mediterranean fleet", "fleet of the North", "fleet of the Pacific", etc. Thanks for expanding on this Surcouf. I've always had a general idea on what each was, but every nation has a different idea of what the composition is, and how much makes up each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surcouf Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Yes, it's just for France. In Germany, Spain, England, America, etc. it's different. The names and the number of vessels are not the same, but it gives a good idea of the differences. I add that if a squadron or division is composed only of frigates, we speak of "light" squadron and "light" division. Same names if they are lower vessels than 74-gun ships. There is also a color code (as in other nations). A naval army with three squadrons: The 1st: white 2nd: white and blue 3rd: blue It takes three divisions to make one squadron, each division has the same color as its squadron, but on different masts for the admirers. Example: The 1st squadron: white mark - The 1st division: white mark on the mainmast - The 2nd division: white mark on the foremast - The 3rd division: white mark on the mizzen mast 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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