Hotfix 9.71

[Teamski]

I fully concur what has been said so far:

 

1.  AI is overpowered.  I barely survived (by fleeing) my usual duel between my 3rd rate vs. 2 connies.  I can accept their improved performance and I even noted that they weren't accelerating like they used to. BUT, to get broadsided with a full load of lead and within 10-15 seconds start getting hit again from the same side....well, there is something seriously wrong there.

 

2.  It was certainly frustrating for my clan not to be able to enter fleet missions with more than 6 ships.  We spent quite a bit of time testing out different situations (single, fleet, higher level, lower level, etc) and completely wasted our evening with the typical "too close for battle" notifications.  Really poor implementation IMHO.

 

3.  The BR difference should be either eliminated or tweaked to a 2:1 ratio or something like that.  While I like the idea of not getting ganked in a target rich environment, some credit has to be given to the side that fielded more of the ships.  Either that, or give the lower side the AI difference in BR to even things up.  Not seeing that now.

 

4.  I hope to see AI 3rd rates for sale at some time.  Not all of us are either crafters or associated with those that are.  If you are not going to allow capping of AI ships, something has to be given back to allow for players to get access to those ships.  Make them $500,000, but make them available.

 

-Ski

Edited April 14, 2016 by Teamski

[NavalActionPlayer]

Just to add my 2p worth.....AI does seem to be able to do a lot more damage than seems entirely reasonable. I had one nightmare with an AI Pickle virtually sinking me in a Trinc. I'll start using F11 to report these things.

 

Like others, I am more than ok with a good challenge from the AI but something is out of balance...... a dozen 18pdrs should do more damage on average then half a dozen 6pdrs....not the other way round, particularly when the 18pdrs are firing at a lightweight cockleshell.

Edited April 14, 2016 by NavalActionPlayer

[noniac]

Why is this objectionable? The Merkurii and Snow have "similar" armament (6pd or 24pd carronade in their respective historical armaments (which are functionally interchangeable), but the Merkurii has almost twice the burthen (and probably also reserve bouyancy). This is because it is an ocean going vessel, rather than an over-armed lakes vessel.

Even if they exchange identical amounts of damage and both sink from it I'd expect the Snow to go down first.

i accept that, even though i fought a renomee on my snow and won... The mercury cant sink me with 3 broadsides in 30 seconds, i mean, there is clearly an inmbalance if he kills me and i have his sides barely to the 80%. But dont listen to me, listen to the 3rd rates that are being sunk by 2 surprises, and thats a big LOL. The AI will eat us alive, they have rail guns, what do we have?. I demand the devs to make a upgrade called "bane of the AI" to remember the this as the Grand AI Disaster, and to help devs remember not to touch it anymore.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Just to add my 2p worth.....AI does seem to be able to do a lot more damage than seems entirely reasonable. I had one nightmare with an AI Pickle virtually sinking me in a Trinc. I'll start using F11 to report these things.

 

Like others, I am more than ok with a good challenge from the AI but something is out of balance...... a dozen 18pdrs should do more damage on average then half a dozen 6pdrs....not the other way round, particularly when the 18pdrs are firing at a lightweight cockleshell.

 

People used to complain about the AI being laser accurate.  In reality, they were very often shooting into the water or over the deck.  The latest patch brought their accuracy far more into line with the players, which means it "seems" like they can do more damage than you, but in reality, they can now do nearly the same damage as you.  Those 18lb balls should indeed do more damage - if you're hitting with all of them reliably.  In fact, hitting that Pickle with all 18's below the normal waterline and putting him on the opposite tack means you'll likely be done worrying about that pickle in short order.  I'll also note that everything pens everything at close range.  If you've closed yardarm to yardarm, those 6's are going to go right through you.

 

All things being equal, a Mercury should defeat a Snow (especially if you're sitting there trading broadsides with it) - it has nearly twice the planking to lose.  If you're going to attack a Mercury or a Navy Brig in a Snow, you'd be advised to understand your advantages versus those vessels and use them to their greatest degree if you're going to hope to beat them.  If you expect to be able to sit broadside on and trade iron, you're going to sink for sure.

i accept that, even though i fought a renomee on my snow and won... The mercury cant sink me with 3 broadsides in 30 seconds, i mean, there is clearly an inmbalance if he kills me and i have his sides barely to the 80%. But dont listen to me, listen to the 3rd rates that are being sunk by 2 surprises, and thats a big LOL. The AI will eat us alive, they have rail guns, what do we have?. I demand the devs to make a upgrade called "bane of the AI" to remember the this as the Grand AI Disaster, and to help devs remember not to touch it anymore.

 

The AI has the exact same guns you do.  Exactly, the, same.  They may aim them better than you do, but that's something that you need to work on.  

[Timbo]

Hearing great things and looking like solid changes all around. Can't wait for the weekend!

[Atomic Moose]

the ai is to accurate at long ranges no way a player can shoot that good from like 500m or more they never miss single shots 

i looked at a combat log and they hit like 80% of there shots no one is that good 

 

i think that is biggest problem move that accuracy down to about 55% and see what it is

[Tex_Steel]

I won't complain about the AI manned ships being more effective now. If that's a change that the devs intended then so be it. However, I believe everyone is noticing that the AI manned ships are able to penetrate both sides of the armor with an alarmingly more effective ability than either long cannons or carronades are suppose to. I took several missions since the patch in a bellona and went up against single 3rd rates and single bellonas. I would slug it out broadside to broadside to see which one of us could sink the other faster. I was using 18 lb cannons only instead of the max gun weight due to them being higher dps and the same penetration value. I would be able to sink a bellona or 3rd rate with roughly 10% armor on my broadside that I was showing the enemy.

 

It was very clear in multiple battles that while I only knocked ~20-40% of armor off the far side of the enemy, my opposite side was down by 50-70% armor. The AI ships are able to penetrate both broadsides more effectively than I could. I even tried to use the focused setting where all cannons were aimed perpendicular as opposed to using the "unfocused" settings. I still was not penetrating the AI's opposite side armor as fast as they were penetrating mine. I alternated between medium cannons, long cannons, and carronades (where applicable) and the results repeated themselves. The only thing left to test is using higher gun weights but considering that is what everyone else is doing I doubt it will make a difference.

[Ausprey]

Just wanted to say i've been enjoying this game immensely, thank you for the quick fix also, great work Devs.

[Smiling Jack]

Mates...it's like the old tried and true saying..."If it's Not broke...Don't fix it..." 

 

Seen the patch notes and hey...the other fixes are just fine and seem to jive with the majority of the Naval Action community here...and that's great!  However there seems to be more and more Captains out there speaking up about the A.I. Issue.  And mates, I get it...If you are rolling in a 1st , 2nd, 3rd Rate, super frigate from God himself...you can survive the Superman A.I. ships roaming the high seas...  But for us new captains who must grind away for the next ten years in a standard cutter, brig, Row Boat, inflatable Wal-Mart raft, etc...we kind of need the ability to earn gold and xp so we can someday join the big boys at the cannon parties. 

 

Dev's I know you mean well.  I know all of you have been working your tails off to get this game up and sailing, and I know that it's impossible to make everyone happy.  If you want the A.I. ships to be smarter and have the ability to shoot better, fine.  But please, consider perhaps reverting to pre-patch damage ratings... And if that can't be done then perhaps a full revert back to A.I. Pre-Patch would be in order. 

 

Please...no more "Rail Gun" cannons on AI ships, no more superman-like powers for AI crews who somehow can take a full broadside of grape-shot -muzzle to muzzle- and stand there and smile as you past them...no more.  If it's Not broke...Don't fix it".  

[Smiling Jack]

there are no bonuses to ai - they use the same cannons as you

the glaring bugs in their shooting were fixed

+ they shoot into water less than before

+ they stay closer and shoot less at ricocheting angles

That may be well and good mate, but your damage specs are off the far side of the map, not too many Captains are happy with this AI change, might want to revisit it and make some changes...

[LethaK Maas]

The AI is simply too accurate at all times, in all conditions, and never miss any single shot.

In the long run of a battle, this is a huge bonus over a player having to re-aim every two or so boardside, or after each wave.

Edited April 14, 2016 by LethaK Maas

[Carljcharles]

The AI has the exact same guns you do.  Exactly, the, same.  They may aim them better than you do, but that's something that you need to work on.  

 

Henry, Seriously, your talking like you haven't played the game since the patch.

 

Players have the choice of 3 cannon types for a start - I went very close broadside to broadside NPC Essex me in Live Oak Exception Trinc and all decks Carros. I get the broadside in first on the Essex very little change on his armour, literally harldy noticed it move. His broadside moments later ripped down my side armour 15-20% maybe more. WTF!

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but NPC don't use Carronades. So my broadside weight alone should have done at least something similar to what the NPC achieved as my broadside weight was probably 2x his - him using longs or Mediums. This was not about aiming just straight on into the middle of the woodwork.

 

Please Devs go test it. Prove me and every other person posting here wrong please.

[maturin]

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

Where you were aiming isn't really the point. Show us where you hit.

[Enraged Ewok]

Henry, Seriously, your talking like you haven't played the game since the patch.

 

Players have the choice of 3 cannon types for a start - I went very close broadside to broadside NPC Essex me in Live Oak Exception Trinc and all decks Carros. I get the broadside in first on the Essex very little change on his armour, literally harldy noticed it move. His broadside moments later ripped down my side armour 15-20% maybe more. WTF!

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but NPC don't use Carronades. So my broadside weight alone should have done at least something similar to what the NPC achieved as my broadside weight was probably 2x his - him using longs or Mediums. This was not about aiming just straight on into the middle of the woodwork.

 

Please Devs go test it. Prove me and every other person posting here wrong please.

 

From my personal experience sailing an Essex, going broadside to broadside with one in a Trincomalee is one of the worst things you can possibly do due to the height difference. The closer you are, the much higher chance your quartdeck guns will miss him completely due to how low he sits in comparison. Meanwhile, the Essex will have no trouble landing every shot on the high sided Trincomalee up close. Also remember, the Essex carries a 20 gun  broadside of 14 18pders and 6 12 pders. It's no slouch in throw weight.

[Long Beard]

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

Where you were aiming isn't really the point. Show us where you hit.

 

You wan't pics from just one guy or the many many captains posting about AI?

Seems to me there's a lot of players out there with valid concerns.

[maturin]

You wan't pics from just one guy or the many many captains posting about AI?

Seems to me there's a lot of players out there with valid concerns.

I want pics because I haven't experienced any unfairness yet. Evidence is not too much to ask when these things are so easy to document.

 

And I've spent the last months listening to people wailing about how the AI sail and turn faster than players can. They were wrong then, so how I know they're not wrong now? 

[Carljcharles]

From my personal experience sailing an Essex, going broadside to broadside with one in a Trincomalee is one of the worst things you can possibly do due to the height difference. The closer you are, the much higher chance your quartdeck guns will miss him completely due to how low he sits in comparison. Meanwhile, the Essex will have no trouble landing every shot on the high sided Trincomalee up close. Also remember, the Essex carries a 20 gun  broadside of 14 18pders and 6 12 pders. It's no slouch in throw weight.

 

Ewok - I agree - relatively speaking - Essex/Trinc not much difference. I didn't want to bore everyone with the details but I know I was on target. Wind was at 90 degrees pushing my broadside down his up. NPC isn't carrying carros - I am Max carro on both decks. Dead level running easy no brain firing into the side of  the Essex. Sweet.

Done this plenty of times pre-patch no problem with sensible outcome. Post patch not even close. Just look at the broadside weight alone. Say my entire top deck never landed at all and all his cannon did - That would roughly equal out the broadside impact on armour. This was nothing like the result. I lost a huge chunk of armour - him almost nothing.

 

"Pictures - please!" Just go and play the game like your supposed to and you see. My situation is different to many because I enjoy close combat with massive damage broadsides with Carros - so I can rule out many of the variables being suggested on here by the Mod/Admins as to why this is a player problem rather than a hugely over boosted NPC problem.

[codyproxy]

Did a flag captain fleet mission today with 2 others. An AI pavel and 2 AI 3rd's joined us, against like 10 enemy AI, 1 pavel, few ingermanland's and many consti's.

 

Although it was hard, we sank them all, of our team only the 3 AI didn't survive. It was fun.

 

I really don't get where this 'AI is overpowered' comes from,

 

I also read someone's post about that he didn't know what to do next now his grinding was over. Really? I am max rank, but i didn't care already about exp before i got there. I just love to do some nice battles with people, sometimes capture a trader, sometimes creating a ship. Why should you care that you 'cannot grind' anymore?

[Skippy]

Is it possible that augmenting their accuracy is causing the AI to cause more damage?? looks like it is, when you think about it, that game take into account angle, distance, physics etc.

 

I think the accuracy shouldnt have been change that much...  The behiavior of the AI yes, this was a good change.  The AI were already good shooters, and if the accuracy change caused them to make more damage with the balistics physics, well i think it should be review a lil bit on the lower side...  if smaller ship can pass too easily big armor of ships of the line, maybe it need adjustement... im not sure, but maybe it need some testing to be sure.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Skippy

[VonVolks]

me and some friends have been fighting battles with players and AI, and they have been GREAT FUN! Really tough close battles, where we have always won, (aside  from the times we lost) but always sustained heavy casualties in great fun close fights? Why are people complaining? The AI is much better now, but good it was too easy before, Respect the enemy!

 

Do people just want AI to be a carpet they walk over on the way to the next rank! Hoooray! ? I for one dont. I want the AI to be a good opponent in lieu of a human one, so I cant tell the difference between the 2!

[Miha8]

I want pics because I haven't experienced any unfairness yet. Evidence is not too much to ask when these things are so easy to document.

 

And I've spent the last months listening to people wailing about how the AI sail and turn faster than players can. They were wrong then, so how I know they're not wrong now? 

what exactly does a ''tester'' below your avatar mean?????

[Smiling Jack]

The AI is simply too accurate at all times, in all conditions, and never miss any single shot.

In the long run of a battle, this is a huge bonus over a player having to re-aim every two or so boardside, or after each wave.

It's so simple...The Developers Cheated....not on purpose mind you... not trying to sound like a jerk...please don't take it that way. I don't think they realize what they did here.  I should have posted this hours ago...It's so simple! What is Naval Action?  Naval Action is advertised as a massive MMO Naval Combat Game centered around the Age of Sail.  This title is very much simulation as it is game, they support that fact!  It is built using one of the most advanced physics and graphics engines known to the gaming world! What happens to boats and ships, small and large while at sea?  They are in a constant state of movement right?  They react to the constant swells, waves, and currents of the oceans.  That's why when you play Naval Action you SEE your ship pitching, rolling, heaving, wallowing with the swells...  Does not matter if you are in a Cutter or the latest and most powerful 1st. Rate.  Your vessel is always in a constant state of movement on the water.  What do you see your ship doing while sailing in Open World?  Pitching, Rolling, Wallowing, Heaving, etc..  What do you see when you enter a battle...any battle...any weather condition?  That's right...your SHIP is ROLLING, PITCHING, WALLOWING, HEAVING, right? Presents lots of problems for us HUMAN captains engaging in a battle huh...that ever constant movement of your ship, got to really aim those cannons huh?  Some shots go high...go low...long, short...way over the rigging, goes plunk into the ocean...all caused by the constant movement of your ship and the fact that cannon of the period had no fancy aiming devices. This is all part of the "simulation aspect" of Naval Action.

 

The A.I. Ships in Naval Action where performing the way they were meant to...the way they were designed to.  The A.I. vessels both small and large are under the same conditions and physics as us mere mortal players.  Let's be honest about it.  Its the way the game is designed.  They too are Rolling, Pitching, Wallowing, and Heaving, remember... always in constant motion...they are operating under the same rules as we are!  After all that is the point of this being...I don't know...a Naval Warfare Game...involving warships fighting in the ocean...an unstable element that is always in a state of movement...

 

So according to the patch notes the A.I. was buffed to "improve" upon the "wild" firing characteristics of the A.I. vessels...  Fellas...you just broke your own rules...frankly speaking, you cheated in your own game!  You created a double standard for all the players of Naval Action.  You went in to "fix" a (in my opinion) a non-problem and in doing so created a new set of rules, or standard for your own A.I.  vessels all over the game!  So as we human players have to fight with the constant movement of our vessels on the surface of the ocean, having to factor in all sorts of targeting information in relation to the movement of our own ships and that of the enemy...the A.I. suddenly gets a...Free Pass?  Suddenly gets to...Shoot Better under the same conditions?  

 

No thanks.

 

It's not fair, and I feel along with many, many other captains that there is now an unfair advantage to the Game A.I.

 

Please, re-visit the A.I. and determine if appropriate adjustments can be implemented so myself along with many other captains can enjoy the game much more.  Naval Action is a one of a kind game and it deserves as well as all the people who support and play it the chance to have this issue addressed. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by TRIGGER88

[Smiling Jack]

People used to complain about the AI being laser accurate.  In reality, they were very often shooting into the water or over the deck.  The latest patch brought their accuracy far more into line with the players, which means it "seems" like they can do more damage than you, but in reality, they can now do nearly the same damage as you.  Those 18lb balls should indeed do more damage - if you're hitting with all of them reliably.  In fact, hitting that Pickle with all 18's below the normal waterline and putting him on the opposite tack means you'll likely be done worrying about that pickle in short order.  I'll also note that everything pens everything at close range.  If you've closed yardarm to yardarm, those 6's are going to go right through you.

 

All things being equal, a Mercury should defeat a Snow (especially if you're sitting there trading broadsides with it) - it has nearly twice the planking to lose.  If you're going to attack a Mercury or a Navy Brig in a Snow, you'd be advised to understand your advantages versus those vessels and use them to their greatest degree if you're going to hope to beat them.  If you expect to be able to sit broadside on and trade iron, you're going to sink for sure.

 

The AI has the exact same guns you do.  Exactly, the, same.  They may aim them better than you do, but that's something that you need to work on.  

Negative mate...yes they may have brought the AI's guns up to speed...but they went off the edge of the map with this latest "fix" to our beloved AI ships...

[akd]

what exactly does a ''tester'' below your avatar mean?????

 

As testers we are obligated to reject reports that are simply confirmation bias at work.

 

The AI were not "wild" shooters like humans, they were predictably bad robot shooters that could be easily exploited using angles and relative motion, things that humans are better at dealing with due to predictive abilities.

[Mr. Starbuck]

Some small observations:

 

First post patch mission put me against a Conny in my Bellona.

 

Connie went down with about 40% HP on one side down after 4-6 broadsides were exchanged. I did not notice alarge amount of leaks on her or excessive damage. I thought "wtf? Why did they gimp the ai so hard?" haha, yeah.

 

Next mission put me against two connies. They ripped my bellona apart, I could only sink one, barely. Even then It took a very long time for her to actually sink, even though she received up to 4-5 leaks per broadside additionally to fire and depleted side armour while they totally ruined my armour. 

 

During the next few battles I noticed the extreme damage output an Essex was doing on my Bellona. Additionaly I managed to fire two broadsides by turning sharp into her side, inflicting 12 leaks. She did NOT sink. Only after completeley shredding her side and stern armour she went slowly down ,quite some time later.

 

Hmmmm...

 

I suppose we've got te re-learn a lot about how to deal with the AI in the best way. The pre-patch "sail side to side, hammer her with carros and watch her sink" does not work any more.

That's the good part.

The bad part is that the post-patch buffs seem to be a bit over the top. It's rather frustrating to watch the new stunning AI hit rates. this should be adapted and brought to bearable levels. No one likes aim-bots for a reason 

 

Challenge is fine. But if considerably smaller ships can shred the sides of large vessels in short time then something seems to be going the wrong path...