[PvP2] Vive La France

[Taranis]

Corsairs and France fighting against the brits would have been very nice indeed - a sight to see.  Did you know that Corsaires were French privateers with Letters of Marque to harass the enemy? As France, we have no lost love for the red coats.  I think the south east could have been a compromise too (south of carriacou for example) - but that would have been in consideration of northern ports (Point a Pitre area).  You would have had a fine base and concentrated and focused area.  Alas.  It shall not be so, i'm afraid.  Instead we shall plague, harass, and troll you.  And in time, we shall flush you out - there is only so long that you will be able to maintain multiple fronts...

[Taralin Snow]

after the next map reset (whenever that might be), perhaps the diplomacy will play out differently.

[Taranis]

after the next map reset (whenever that might be), perhaps the diplomacy will play out differently.

 

Perhaps - but i think it unlikely.  I think that certain players that have taken the Black might by then be more likely to discovered the error of their ways, and might consider joining a real nation...

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

So many lies and misconceptions are being thrown here, wow.

 

First off, the general pirate population does not care about the Dutch and we never had any plan at all to even take any of their ports. They attacked us a while ago at Aves and that's the only dealing we had with them. I know some of the smaller clans down south had some dealing with them but it wasn't anything serious and it certainly wasn't a coordinated thing among the pirate clans over east,

 

I wasn't part of that meeting and I wish it had been recorded because what we hear from you French and what our leaders told us are two totally different stories. The mandate we agreed on down south was that we would temporarily be in a truce with you guys so we could both, in an equal and mutually respectable way, get rid of the Brits down here which were a problem for both you and us. There was no talk about us taking any French ports (although some lesser clans had ambitions to that effect, I was under the impression these were being abandoned for the greater good of getting rid of the Brits down here). We gave zero mandate to try and rip you of any ports to our leaders, so if that is really what transpired, our leaders deceived us and failed at diplomacy on a stellar level.

 

Also, there are now 10+ clans down here each with their own agenda. We have that council going which is a democracy, nobody is leading it, it's simply all of us talking things over and then we usually, not always, agree on an orientation. Be careful not to mix the ambitions of a lesser 10 man clan in there with those of the whole population of pirates here. The dutch thing comes to mind...

 

I personally think that every small nation including the pirates should work together to stop the double steamroll that is coming from the east. It appears obvious now from what happened last night that the steamroll is coming over and unless I'm totally retarded, they are here for the pirates. While this might seem like a victory to you guys, understand that there will be absolutely nothing left to crush after us but you. The US and Brits are in bed together and have been since the start, so don't expect them to tackle each other and turn the heat off until there is nothing left but these two.

[Slamz]

I wasn't part of that meeting and I wish it had been recorded because what we hear from you French and what our leaders told us are two totally different stories.

 

If there is one thing we have all learned from this, it's that the pirate leadership's idea of "sooper clevr plan!" is to simply lie to various parties in an effort to achieve desired results. It apparently did not occur to them that at some point we would all talk to each other, compare notes and realize the pirate leadership is almost entirely full of feces. That they are lying to their own team would hardly be surprising.

 

When it came to negotiations, they literally did not offer us anything. Not a single pirate port anywhere would be relinquished back to our control, nor would the status be quo. They offered to "let" us capture the British ports which they would generously not take from us, but they wanted 2 more of the ports we already had.

 

I will seriously be surprised if at least some of these pirate leaders do not simply quit the game soon ("whatever, this game is stupid, I'm out"). I'm just saying they were pretty invested in this plan, put a lot of weight on some lies, and now it's falling apart on them due to some miscalculations on their part. Pretty sure they just thought France would do what Sweden did, which is cave in, in which case their machinations would have never been discovered.

 

But now their reps are going to just be damaged. Their best bet may be to just reroll, join Spain or something, change their name and hope nobody remembers them.

 

The US and Brits are in bed together and have been since the start, so don't expect them to tackle each other and turn the heat off until there is nothing left but these two.

 

Did these same pirate leaders tell you that?

 

Because I don't particularly believe it, unless both the U.S. and British leaders literally do not want PvP. Just ignoring for the moment anything they have told me or any rumors I have heard, a simple look at the situation and numbers shows that Britain + U.S. would be stupidly indomitable and none of us would be able to have fun on either side, even if the pirates and every other nation united 100% against them (which your leaders and the general pirate attitude renders impossible anyway).

 

In the end, Britain and the U.S. must fight each other and there is little sense in trying to wipe out the minor teams first, since the only thing that would really accomplish is guaranteeing that we become the enduring enemies of whoever attacks us first, which is exactly what has happened to the pirates.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Slamz

[Capt. Rice]

i hardly call what the US and Brits have is an alliance as there has been some turmoil already between us.  Yes we have been staying mostly on our sides but this wont last long i fear and it not going to be pretty.

[Agoney]

The US and Brits are far from an Alliance at this time. They keep moving closer to our Lines. if the brits come any closer. It almost seems like all out war will start.

[Juan Alfonso]

i hardly call what the US and Brits have is an alliance as there has been some turmoil already between us.  Yes we have been staying mostly on our sides but this wont last long i fear and it not going to be pretty.

Aye, Alliances are very messy without the proper diplomacy. I'm very Interested to see what will happen with the pirates regarding diplomatic action.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

For the record I have been appointed official diplomat for Crimson Flotilla. If any leader of any nation wants to parlay, I am available to do so. I have already reached out to several small nations in our area to improve relationships. I do not represent the whole pirate nation but I can make meetings happen, so feel free to contact me.

The general consensus within CF is that we don't want to wipe any of the small nations. I realize diplomacy has been a little rough around the edges from our side, but we are working on improving that. Ultimately, I think everyone in the region agrees everyone's efforts should be aimed at Brits and/or US. We got thanks and congradulations from most nations in the area for pushing out the Brits.

I can be a master troll at times but when its time to get down to business I'm going to respect every nation and opinion, so don't hesitate if you want to talk serious. That includes you Slamz <3

[Cpt Dreadnaught]

At the current rate, I don't see the French having many options. It's either solve things diplomatically or "show the pirates how to be pirates" from one port. If they have their nations best interest at heart I'm sure they could come to an agreement, or at least start a dialogue.

[Æthlstan]

The way the US is kicking your ass we wont be able to get anywhere. You arent going to give up the south east and youre sure as hell not giving up the north. All France wants is to have a decent stronghold somewhere.

Initial diplomacy failed because thepirates refused to offer acceptable terms. They wanted (want) the southeast. They wont give up the islands in the north. In order to be supportive allies France needs a strong collection of ports for economical purposes. If the pirate leadership has come to understand that and is willing to seriously come to the table, we may be able to work something out.

We wont be satisfied with Lapdog status, as the swedes were.

[Cpt Dreadnaught]

The Swedes are not lapdogs. They simply agreed not to pass a boundary and both sides have honored the agreement. Relations grew from there.

I cannot speak for pirate leadership but I highly doubt giving up ports will be an option(at this point in time), given the general attitude of the pirate nation. At best you all may be allowed to keep the ports you have and expand elsewhere from those ports, without fear of the pirate nation capturing them. You'd essentially have a safe area around your core ports with added protection because of their proximity to pirate ports.

Of course, this is all just my opinion. If such a deal did occur, it could open the floor for more deals in the future, and more cooperation. Baby steps...it would be foolish to give away territory to someone who calls you enemy when you have them nearly entirely removed from the area.

Also consider what can the French offer the pirates? How can both sides demonstrate commitment to the agreement? If I anger anyone by saying these things I apologize, I'm simply trying to start a civilized conversation.

[Arsilon]

All trolling and propaganda aside (and several rats have already acknowledged the terms of the "offer" to be without anything meaningful for the French despite continued claims of propaganda) the Pirates had offered the French 2 options.

 

Option 1:

1. France to give up existing ports owned in the bay
2. France given free reign to attempt to take the Deep Water ports held by Britain without Pirate interference
3. Pirates take remaining neutral ports in the S.America area
4. Pirates provide no commitments against and reserve all rights to take any remaining French held ports away at any time in the future

Option 2:

1. Pirates take existing ports owned by the French in the bay and anywhere else they chose to

 

It should also be noted that there are still several factions within the Pirate nation that have their own separate interests and priorities.  They were seemingly generally able to cooperate but it was clear that in the long run, nothing was likely to 'stick' in any way beneficial to the French.  Also, at prime time the pirates outnumber the French easily 5:1 (note last night was perfect example where there were 4 overlapping port battles going on both with players in the battles as well as providing screening outside the battles).  In addition the Pirates can captain much higher level ships than the French currently can.  With a few exceptions the French are still in Cerbs/Surprise/Ren level ships for deep water port battles while the Pirates are well into 3rd Rates and Constitutions (admittedly some undercrewed but that is of little impact with current port battle mechanics).

 

So given two options what would you expect the French to do?  Pirates would say that the French are in no position to be making any demands and there is nothing that requires the Pirates to offer any considerations since they can pretty much do what they have been doing.  Given lose lose options, the French will take the lose option that give us PvP fun along the way.

 

Option 1:  Roll over and then what?  Perhaps we could take the British ports if they didn't show up.  Great fun. PvTower.  Then what after that?  Likely still in the situation we are today but bored out of our minds.

Option 2:  Put up a fight kicking and scratching any way we can given our limited numbers and limited ship composition capabilities and have a butt load of PvP along the way.

 

With wipes all but inevitable Option 2 really was the only choice.  You can dramatize all you want about who said what and how they said it but in the end this is what it boils down to.

 

Of course there are those that care when they look at the map and see fewer and fewer blue dots.  But at least for the French that have chosen to fight to the bitter end in the south, we realize that the game is a whole lot more fun fighting than it is looking at the mission screen. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Arsilon

[Taralin Snow]

It's important to keep in mind that, just like every nation, the Pirate nation is essentially just a collection of clans, and they're not always on the same page.  Sometimes they're not even reading the same book.

 

Down in the southeast corner of the map, I haven't noticed any [CF] pirates bothering us lately.  Last few days it's been mostly [bSO], and maybe 1 or 2 and [sIN].  At last night's port battle in Pedernales there were 17 [bSO], 1 [sIN] and 1 [FC].  I don't know which pirate clans showed up at Cano Araguabisi and La Trinite.  Since those last 2 are deep water ports, maybe the higher level pirates all went there?  Is [bSO] a leveling guild for lowbie pirates?

 

edit: I got curious so I looked at a screenshot from Pedernales last night to see what the levels were.

 

Pirates:

1. 1 [bSO]

1 [bSO] 0 6 [bSO], 1 [sIN], 1 [FC] 1 [bSO] 5 [bSO] 2 [bSO]

French:

1. 0

0 1 [PURGE], 1 (no tag) 3 [PURGE], 1 [18E], 3 (no tag) 3 [PURGE], 2 [18E], 1 (no tag) 4 [PURGE], 1 [18E], 1 (no tag)

so I have to say [bSO] doesn't look much like a leveling guild, with 2 rank 7's.  but they are clearly an active/growing guild because they at least brought a couple rank 1/2 players while the French brought none.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Taralin Snow

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

The way the US is kicking your ass we wont be able to get anywhere. You arent going to give up the south east and youre sure as hell not giving up the north. All France wants is to have a decent stronghold somewhere.

Initial diplomacy failed because thepirates refused to offer acceptable terms. They wanted (want) the southeast. They wont give up the islands in the north. In order to be supportive allies France needs a strong collection of ports for economical purposes. If the pirate leadership has come to understand that and is willing to seriously come to the table, we may be able to work something out.

We wont be satisfied with Lapdog status, as the swedes were.

 

The night everything went south for France that meeting should not have happened. We had 40 guys in the teamspeak with sword in hand, dagger between the teeth and foam dripping out the mouth to go and push the British out. When the call was made to move on the British, it was out understanding that previous discussions were for you guys to attack British ports at the same time, serving both our national interests. You guys did not hold your end of that deal and then the council meeting was called. All the pirates were pissed at you guys from the get go, on top of being in a rush because of the 40 dudes roaring on teamspeak for us to do something, anything... Meeting in those circumstances simply cannot lead to good results...

 

Diplomacy cannot be rushed and that evening was a good proof of that. Any long lasting deal in the region needs to be talked over several days/weeks and have both sides show good faith. Giving up ports? Geez, you're skipping way ahead. Lets start by all agreeing this war does not serve either's interest and that stopping this silly war would benefit everyone. Not talking about giving ports or anything here, just pause the bloodshed and discuss how the french can get the room to level, craft and trade, etc. I'm sure only that would be a HUGE improvement over the situation for you guys, and it would allow us pirates to recenter and actually use our brawn for something useful that actually changes something at the server level, rather than pointless skirmishes.

 

So lets start by talking about a cease fire before we even bring port give-aways. Way too early for that, way way too early.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

It's important to keep in mind that, just like every nation, the Pirate nation is essentially just a collection of clans, and they're not always on the same page.  Sometimes they're not even reading the same book.

 

Down in the southeast corner of the map, I haven't noticed any [CF] pirates bothering us lately.  Last few days it's been mostly [bSO], and maybe 1 or 2 and [sIN].  At last night's port battle in Pedernales there were 17 [bSO], 1 [sIN] and 1 [FC].  I don't know which pirate clans showed up at Cano Araguabisi and La Trinite.  Since those last 2 are deep water ports, maybe the higher level pirates all went there?  Is [bSO] a leveling guild for lowbie pirates?

 

Invictus, OMG and CF are the clans that have most of the higher level players from what I estimate (we are mostly by CDR). The clans down south (BSO, SIN and FC mostly) have their own thing going and they do have less high level players than we have up north.

 

There are no "leveling clans" or anything like that, each clan is operating it's own thing and there is no member sharing or even migration as far as I know...

 

As for all of us not being on the same page, that is very true.. This trickles down to individuals even. We've had several clan or council decisions that have pissed off clans and/or members, I guess it's healthy debate overall.

 

I opened the door for negotiation with other nations, but I'm speaking as myself and for CF. Whatever I negotiate or talk over is going to have to fly by the clan's leadership and ultimately the alliance council and each clan will have their say in anything proposed. We are very democratic in the way we do things, in pure pirate tradition

[Dophuz]

Fight!   We ( France ) have proven that we can fight and where and when not outgunned we are winning ( even if its escaping a particularly nasty pirate ambush with under-garments a tad bit soiled )  a lot of open sea battles and ad hoc pvp.   Despite the usual trash talk ( and the inevitable drubbing the trash talker receives at our hands ) this is REALLY FUN!    Port battles are boring until they put in the rest of the terrain to make it something other than a bathtub fight.  

 

I'd rather have a relentless enemy that I know is going to give me a challenging fight each and every time than an ally.

 

Let's keep on doing whatever until the "whipe"

 

Yours in Combat

 

Dophuz De Lederp

[Arsilon]

So lets start by talking about a cease fire before we even bring port give-aways. Way too early for that, way way too early.

 

Again, anything that does not provide France long term viability or forces the nation to just go PvE quietly will be a non-starter.  Agreeing to a ceasefire without any structure for longer term cooperation doesn't accomplish anything.  Admittedly the end state agreement doesn't need to be in place before a cease-fire becomes a reasonable avenue but there should be at least a general framework that ongoing discussions can be held around.

 

You will also need to figure out how you will get the various factions to toe the line.  I can't imagine that the BSO and other clans you have in the south will be willing to give any quarter whatsoever given how much of a thorn we continue to be in their sides.

[Slamz]

The bottom line as I see it is "this is alpha".

 

The problem is Pirates and Purge are playing different games. Pirates are gobbling up ports they have no use for and basically hording cash and materials -- all the things that are going to get wiped in the foreseeable future -- Purge are actually engaging in PvP. I have literally done nothing every day for the last week and a half except log in, PvP and engage in the absolute minimum required activities to support my PvP habits. All of my XP and gold income is from PvP. I wonder how many pirates can say that, versus how many spent the last week and a half shooting towers and NPCs and basically learning nothing?

 

I would literally enjoy testing the ability of a suppressed nation to survive, fight and come back. I'd certainly rather find out now than on release. There's a "free port to free port" delivery mechanism in the game that should allow us to supply Cano Macareo forever from anywhere on the map we feel like, so our ability to live there, literally with no French ports anywhere in the world, may actually be unlimited. Is it TOO easy for a nation to survive? Is it too hard? I'm not opposed to finding out. We will keep killing the pirate mission runners and maybe when we've run out of pirates to shoot, we'll try another port attack and see if they've all really gone or not.

 

 

And, as I see it, what we're really doing is a form of team building.

 

The people attracted to the pirate team right now are those who enjoy NPC farming for big ships and generally avoiding the hard fights while running to areas of the map where they are unopposed. I would bet there are those among you who want to "crush" the Danes and Dutch next (who are each smaller than France). They'll pass it off as "for the lolz" or "oh we're so random" but isn't it funny how their lolz and randomness are always away from the real fights?

 

France is going to end up as a very small team of people who enjoy guerilla warfare, enjoy open sea PvP regardless of odds, know how to fight a smart fight and can come out ahead despite long odds. Anyone still on the French team 1 week from now is someone I probably want on my team.

 

 

 

Which team do YOU want to be on after the next reset? The PvE XP farming pirates that mostly just capture empty ports in a circle around the map or the hard fighting French? Sounds like the Spanish are giving it the good fight, too. I think we'll see a lot of softies go Pirate and a lot of hard fighters go France and Spain in the next reset.

 

My advice to pirates is you better start accomplishing something real before the reset, or else you are going to get exactly what you are asking for, which is a team of blubberous softies who mostly like to collect big ships but crumble in a real fight.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Slamz

[Slamz]

You guys did not hold your end of that deal

 

Just for the record, there was never any sort of deal with the pirates. Not sure who talked to who to have that impression. The conclusion of the first meeting was "table this for now" with nothing at all being decided or agreed on by anyone. Internal French discussion was always "Pirates out first, British out second". Our first dealings with the pirates was [CF] taking over our northern islands followed by [FC] invading the south. The time for deals and alliances would have been just before then.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Slamz

[Taranis]

Aye, aarrghhh...  Trolling 'eem wee pirate dogs is all that it 'bout now. 

[Taralin Snow]

Invictus, OMG and CF are the clans that have most of the higher level players from what I estimate (we are mostly by CDR). The clans down south (BSO, SIN and FC mostly) have their own thing going and they do have less high level players than we have up north.

 

I think the French down south have their hands full right now with [bSO].  And [sIN] and [FC] if we can figure out where they're hiding.  I think we're outnumbered by those clans alone, never mind the rest of the pirates.

 

I doubt [OMG] or [CF] will have to worry very much about what the southern French are doing as long as we're busy fighting the southern pirates.  Of course that does mean we'll be too busy fighting [bSO] etc to be able to offer you any assistance against the US.  Assuming we had any interest in sailing 5 hours to reach them, which seems unlikely as long as we have people to shoot at where we are now.

 

I really hope an upcoming patch changes the nation mechanics so that pirates can actually be pirates.  I think the game would be a lot more interesting if they were a 'wild card' faction instead of being just another nation, especially if they had the unique ability to convert national ports to neutral ones (and of course the ability to access neutral ports).  Really a big reason the Pirates and French are fighting so bitterly in the south is because we can't share access to neutral ports.  Once a neutral port gets captured, every other nation gets locked out, which leads to teams taking ports they don't really want to own just to ensure they themselves don't get locked out by someone else.  Not the only reason of course, the reinforcement bubble is handy too, but a big one.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Taralin Snow

[Vllad]

I am not clear why the Pirates care what the French want now? 

 

Thanks Brucy for coming to us reasonably though. 

 

Short of the port battles we have made life very hard for all the Pirates down south and I doubt very much BSO, FC and SIN are ever going to agree to anything other than our complete destruction. In-fact we are already preparing for how we are going to fight Pirates when we have zero ports. 

 

It is easy for you to come here because we haven't been messing with northern clans like we have the southern. I am sure once you talk to your southern brothers they will enlighten you.  

[Arsilon]

I am not clear why the Pirates care what the French want now? 

 

Thanks Brucy for coming to us reasonably though. 

 

Short of the port battles we have made life very hard for all the Pirates down south and I doubt very much BSO, FC and SIN are ever going to agree to anything other than our complete destruction. In-fact we are already preparing for how we are going to fight Pirates when we have zero ports. 

 

It is easy for you to come here because we haven't been messing with northern clans like we have the southern. I am sure once you talk to your southern brothers they will enlighten you.  

 

Best I can gather is the Northern Pirates want us to stop messing with the Southern Pirates so the Southern Pirates are more inclined to go help against the US and Brits up there.  Also the less we mess with them in the South, the less the Northern Pirates have to divert people to go help in the name of the Pirate Nation unity.

 

I think its a testament to the game design so far that such a small nation like France can create such headaches for a 'nation' as large as the Pirates. (Not saying there isn't still a LOT of room for tweaks and improvement -- it's a bad thing in my opinion that the Pirates are being played as a 'nation' at all).

Edited February 22, 2016 by Arsilon

[Poe]

Pirates, through the way they decided to play, are building a team of XP farming softies. Not trying to troll you here, just can't think of any other way to put it. The people enjoying the pirate team right now are those who enjoy NPC farming for big ships and generally avoiding the hard fights while running to areas of the map where they are unopposed. I would bet there are those among you who want to "crush" the Danes and Dutch next (who are each smaller than France). They'll pass it off as "for the lolz" or "oh we're so random" but isn't it funny how their lolz and randomness are always away from the real fights?

 

While it pains me to agree with you Slamz, I am forced to.

 

OMG fought the Americans in the Bahamas, and still does regularly. We also helped Twobeards get set up in the Antillies when it looked like the combined brit/yank zerg was going to drive Scrump out of business.  Problem is the guys that wouldn't fight the Americans in the Bahamas are even less likely to fight them down here. Port battles are like gambling, you put some money up front on the hopes that someone will show and you can make your money back and have some fun.  Other people think its about the color of a dot on some stupid map and not all about the pvp.

 

I joined pirates for the low sec/null sec non-stop risk and Pvp opportunities, thats not what we have here right now.  My best fights have been when we fought Americans at 3 to 1 and carried the day or when 8 of us tackled and got murdered by a SoB fleet in the wayward passage.  You don't get better or remember clubbing seals, you remember the shit you have to work for.

 

 

Anyway, when they fix pirate pvp I am going to go on a crusade to make it like low sec/null sec.  We will see how all these "High Sec" Sun Tzu's appreciate my affection.