[PvP2] Vive La France

[Arbour]

 

The pirates are becoming stronger with a much better strategic positioning for longer term warfare against the US and Brits precisely because we moved East. Calling our leadership stupid just because you aren't getting your way. Doesn't change the fact that we're in a much better position now than ever before. Though it would help if we had strategic alliances with our neighbors. Since we'll need to pass through their waters to hit the British. IF we don't have that. It'll just take longer before we're able to bring the fight back to the brits and US.

 

 

 

This is where the pirate misconception shines.  To have strategic allies, it must be strategic.  Telling the French that you are going to attack our high value resource ports in the South, and "you can have whats left" .....boxing the French in so that they have no other enemies to fight except the Pirates.  According to Pirates, the long term French strategic plan in to stay bottled up in the end of the map in fear and not attack anyone, ever.  The reality is that the Pirates' "strategic" position in the area leaves France with no other options but to fight.  If you wanted an ally you should have considered the strategic needs of those allies.   Not told them to not attack pirates or else!  For France to be even a useful ally to the Pirates, France would need resource ports, a path to attack other nations instead of the Pirates, and a small amount of respect.  None of those were given so France in now more unified than ever, with a single strategic plan, because that is the only option there is.  If you think that makes us mad, you are fooling yourselves.  It brings clarity to our purpose and what we need to do as a nation to survive.  And if we get pushed back in the fight so be it, we are prepared for that.....are the pirates prepared for a long drawn out guerrilla war?  Any cowards on the French side left when you took all the islands North.  What remains are sailors that enjoy a good fight and plan to give one.   

 

I doubt the pirates are as unified and clear of purpose as the French are now.  Long-term that gives the France the advantage in my book.  

[Obliterati]

It works for us either way. If we crush the french down to a single port most will either turn pirate or go to the gulf. The remainder wont have enough strength to hurt us. In either case its win win for us. Since most of your players will still be fighting the US or Brits. As of this moment the Dutch, Danes and Sweds are much better allies than the french.

 

Human nature will override your little self righteous we'll plink at you for eternity speech.

[Æthlstan]

....

1:not true...cerbs can access shallow ports....shallow ports can be useful to an economy. not sure why you wouldnt want them if they provide something for shipbuilding or trade.

3. You can totally play on captures alone. Its simply harder to do. Which is probably why they mention playing pirates is supposed to be hard.

4. The US seems to want the bahamas. The US and other nations also have good ports nearby. Youre giving up your capital and making it difficult for new players to want to play your faction by making them sail 5 hrs south to where you ran away to. You arent rising to a challenge that was prese ted to you in the nation description.

5. Potentially. But not when you exile yourself from your homeland...which is essentially what youre doing by giving up your capital. Also....only a few pirate clans are down here. From what I can tell a lot are still trying to fight and yall just abandoned them. Youre a nation. Sure. Then stop using the excuse that "we're pirates and pirates all have their own agendas" as a reason to why youre down here.

6. Sure. But in the meantime you get to pretend youre the big man on the server and destroy a bunch of undermanned nations with inferior ships and crews, that realistically have no chance of defeating you in the long run unless you continually make strategic blunders. There is another way to do things. Its called getting help from other nations through sound diplomacy. Youre a nation not pirates. Sure. Then instead of taking away a nations stronghold, then coming to them with a deal asking for their less powerful stronghold in return for a war against a not-US nation and ports that they dont care about....(seems like every other nation has gotten that pitch from the pirates)...come to them and ask them what they need in order to become strong enough to help you against their enemy.

All you have done is offer deals that weaken the nation you offer them to and make you, already the strongest force down there, even stronger.

But i forgot. Yall are pirates we should just deal.

Or wait, youre a nation state so we should acknowledge that and make allowances.

Which is it?

[Bach]

Incorrect 2 towers did go down at kingstown. After the first tower we received an order to turn and fight the 3-4 french to the rear. Which put us in bad wind. Then dicked around with the wind for 15 minutes before i got fed up with it and demanded a dive to the middle. At which point people focused more on the ships than the towers. Otherwise we could of finished off the 3rd  as we passed and if the pirates had stayed closer to 4. It would of died as well. Instead we allowed ourselves to be pushed away from 4 never to return.

In either case not staying on course and allowing the wind to shift caused a loss.

This is how I saw it at Kingstown as well.

The Pirate momentum was going well up until that turn back and then you lost the momentum. It gave the French time to build up at Towers 3 with a wind angle for a fighting withdrawal to tower 4. This is where the tide turned as the Pirate advance stalled.

Or just boucaniers...

Boucaniers... I like it! It's got a ring to it.

[Slamz]

It works for us either way. If we crush the french down to a single port most will either turn pirate or go to the gulf. The remainder wont have enough strength to hurt us. In either case its win win for us. Since most of your players will still be fighting the US or Brits. As of this moment the Dutch, Danes and Sweds are much better allies than the french.

 

Human nature will override your little self righteous we'll plink at you for eternity speech.

 

Again you reveal that your plan is to create a PvE haven, despite your occasional bluster.

 

Somehow I do not think this is what you told the rest of the pirates. You lured them down with tales of mighty PvP, when in fact you never scouted the area, had no idea who was there and didn't realize it was mostly empty.

 

 

Arguably I think your best accomplishment as a pirate leader is you will have finally helped balance out the pirate team by boring a lot of them into either quitting the game or joining other teams.

 

I really hope that was your actual plan, because then I'd say, "Dang, that man is clever." You'd never get pirates to quit by asking them to, but you could bore them to death. I have reason to believe it is already working.

 

 

Otherwise it is still a stupid plan.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Slamz

[Bach]

1. Shallow water ports are useless to anyone who sails a Cerb or better.

2. Pirates are currently implemented as a nation state.

3. Racial traits are not in the game. Therefore true underdog fighting reliant on captures (a pirates bread in butter when no economy exists) cannot occur.

4. strategically being sandwiched between 2 superior size forces in water no one wants is stupid. Not smart as you seem to want to imply.

5. Positioning your base of operations outside of enemy strike range is strategically sound.

6. If the US or Brits attempt to overextend their resources past Mortimers town and head to the east. It creates an opportunity in their rear. Therefore it becomes strategically impossible to squeeze the pirates completely out. Whereas if we had not moved east. we'd be in the same exact position the Eastern French are now. Since both Le Moule and Aves would be French and/or Dutch/Swedish by now.

I'll have a go at this. Serious like too without the trolling stuff.

#1. True. But shallow ports neutralize the advantages of firepower and economy. A smaller less advanced force with higher captain skills can do more harm to a game super power anytime you can force them to fight for shallow water. I think the Devs were wise, knowing when this game goes live, that the pirate nation will likely always be a nation in transition as players constantly join the game pirate and quit. All those shallow ports in the Bahamas would account for this human nature effect. It's just that in the Alpha we're all playing for keeps because we're the more serious players. One of the attraction to the southeast corner of the map for Purge was the presence of shallow water ports. Which allows us to be more competitive despite the French xp lag.

#2. Yes. But part of this is by player want and not necessity. We all want to sail the big ships but supporting them and making full use of them requires more of a national team style. Otherwise it's just a big NPC hunting machine that event ion some wolf pack is going to sink. The big ships are all shiney sparklies at this stage of the game.

#3. Perhaps, but I have been finding this economy extremely flexible. More often than not I just sail captured ships. Trader NPCs are enough to sustain shallow water vessel production. There is only a need for a solid production base if you want a special frigate with dura on it. I have to hand it to the devs. It is much harder to completely stop an opponent in NA vs deep space EVE.

#4. No argument here.

#5. I would go along with this 100% except for one aspect. You have advertised the heck out of where your production base is by taking so many ports. One or two inconspicuous ports and a side deal with the locals and you can secretly produce fleets. There is no doubt in the super powers minds right now that they will have to take the Antilles to stop pirate potential counter strikes to the North. Further it advertizes you are teleporting in your best ships. If it were me, I would surround MT, assign clans to blockade MT to just bottle up your ships. If I combined the blockades with the port timers I could make the amount of hurdles you had to go through to mount any counter offensive more complex than the average player would want to deal with.

#6. I can't totally agree to this one based on my answer to #5. A teleport based supply chain has Achilles heals that don't play well with any kind of mass attacks to the enemy rear. The routes are to few and predictable. A numerous enough opponent could possibly cover them all. A dispersed hidden supply chain, similar to WW2 German, built around the fringes of multiple fronts would be much harder to stop.

I have to admit, I love the strategic potential of this game.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Bach

[Michel de Toulouse]

If you need any more proof that your plan is a blunder, since you "pirates" started your little war with the french we gotten at least 4 requests to switch nations. I am sure many more will come this weekend. Your strategy of running from the USA and Britsee has bored many USA pvpers who are flocking to our side. At this rate in a week we will have 20 new players. I can't wait for the day when the pirates are smashed for their chappy decisions made months earlier.

[Taranis]

It works for us either way. If we crush the french down to a single port most will either turn pirate or go to the gulf. The remainder wont have enough strength to hurt us. In either case its win win for us. Since most of your players will still be fighting the US or Brits. As of this moment the Dutch, Danes and Sweds are much better allies than the french.

 

Human nature will override your little self righteous we'll plink at you for eternity speech.

 

One might question the wisdom of getting into a position where you have an enemy in your backyard - that you are incapable of removing.  A couple of things you are successfully doing (other than expanding): (1) creating staunch enemies, and (2) further imbalancing the game in favor of the US and even the UK - which will ultimately come back to haunt all of us.

Edited February 17, 2016 by TaranisPrime

[Obliterati]

Again you reveal that your plan is to create a PvE haven, despite your occasional bluster.

 

Somehow I do not think this is what you told the rest of the pirates. You lured them down with tales of mighty PvP, when in fact you never scouted the area, had no idea who was there and didn't realize it was mostly empty.

 

 

Arguably I think your best accomplishment as a pirate leader is you will have finally helped balance out the pirate team by boring a lot of them into either quitting the game or joining other teams.

 

I really hope that was your actual plan, because then I'd say, "Dang, that man is clever." You'd never get pirates to quit by asking them to, but you could bore them to death. I have reason to believe it is already working.

 

 

Otherwise it is still a stupid plan.

 

 

lol you are the funnest person on this forum. You stated in one of the design threads you wanted pvp to have a cost to it. To force players to pve for gold to fund it. That way piracy and anti-economy tactics would have an impact. Seriously stop being 2 faced with your views.

 

Plus the only person who even uses the word "bored" in this game is you. Maybe you should just quit already. We'd all be better off without you around to pull the Hillary Clinton act.

[Obliterati]

One might question the wisdom of getting into a position where you have an enemy in your backyard - that you are incapable of removing.  A couple of things you are successfully doing (other than expanding): (1) creating staunch enemies, and (2) further imbalancing the game in favor of the US and even the UK - which will ultimately come back to haunt all of us.

 

I can't deny you have a point. That said we didn't turn down the deal. Slamz did. Though you have to build trust. which we don't have with the French. Yall had been hedging for days and its obvious you wanted to back stab us at the earliest opportunity.

 

@Bach

 

Our production base is in a free port. No one can touch it. Additionally we don't have to teleport anywhere. So i dont really understand what you mean by a teleport economy? Why does everyone think your capital is required as a production base? honestly, it boggles my mind. Secondly its incredibly easy to cap a trade ship and send a combat ship to any outpost you own... instant force projection. Also MT is in the perfect place for guerrilla tactics, but terrible as the heart of a nation. So since it can't be captured. We'll just send ships there as the US moves east and play tag with their ports. Easy frustration for the US or brits.

As to why the US can't attack the east without going through the brits. They have no ports anywhere near here and cannot get flags. Getting out of the way helps us all by resulting in conflict between the 2 largest nations.

[Bach]

I can't deny you have a point. That said we didn't turn down the deal. Slamz did. Though you have to build trust. which we don't have with the French. Yall had been hedging for days and its obvious you wanted to back stab us at the earliest opportunity.

 

@Bach

 

Our production base is in a free port. No one can touch it. Additionally we don't have to teleport anywhere. So i dont really understand what you mean by a teleport economy? Why does everyone think your capital is required as a production base? honestly, it boggles my mind. Secondly its incredibly easy to cap a trade ship and send a combat ship to any outpost you own... instant force projection. Also MT is in the perfect place for guerrilla tactics, but terrible as the heart of a nation. So since it can't be captured. We'll just send ships there as the US moves east and play tag with their ports. Easy frustration for the US or brits.

As to why the US can't attack the east without going through the brits. They have no ports anywhere near here and cannot get flags. Getting out of the way helps us all by resulting in conflict between the 2 largest nations.

Actually, most of us were inclined to ally and eventually fight the USA. Somehow we've gotten 180 degrees away from that.

Good point on the trader teleports. It would force them to have to cover the free cities on the battle front.

I don't think you need the Capitol for material production. It's only real value is to kick start new players joining the nation. In a game that is essentially "capture the flag" the Capitol is generally considered an indicator of your level of success. At least it is to an observer just joining the game. Simply ask this question to any person that noticed and bought the game today and joins France. On their own and after looking at the map he'll probably reroll. It won't be any different for pirates. So as a nation there should be some responsibility and pride in the Capitol. If you don't have that then none if the strategy stuff I mentioned matters.

As for the USA not getting flags to the Antilles, we both no it's inevitable. If they actually got organized and planned they could be on our doorstep in three days and there wouldn't be a lot we could do about it.

[Petrov]

All this forum PVP makes for a interesting read...

 

I think it's important to note that without proper diplomatic mechanics in game, no person or group of people speaks for a entire nation.  We do not have nations.  What we have is anarchy.  Different clans, with different goals, different strategies across all nations. 

 

The nation that can unify its player base towards a single goal and strategy will have the advantage.  Of course there's the whole numbers advantage, but that is a separate discussion

[Slamz]

lol you are the funnest person on this forum. You stated in one of the design threads you wanted pvp to have a cost to it. To force players to pve for gold to fund it.

 

Absolutely, but you have to admit it was pretty stupid of you to declare "We need a safe place for PvE!" followed immediately by "Let's make it 3 hours away from our capital and then kick the nearest 2 nations in the teeth so that they want to murder us! Oh, and let's do it right near the Dutch who we tried to murder a couple weeks ago and they still hate us! I am super smart to think of this plan!"

 

Man. Your plan is just unsalvageable at this point. I don't even know what to tell you.

 

As to why the US can't attack the east without going through the brits.

 

Ah, well it's a good thing you're allies with the Brits, then, so that they have no reason to cooperate with the U.S. and help them port hop over to your new ship production area.

 

Oh no wait you attacked the British too.

 

"Hello, British, it's the U.S. Can we please have this port and this port so that we can get flags over to the pirates and murder them all?"

"I say, old bean, we'd love to give you these ports so that you can go kill the pirates. They've been attacking us this whole time!"

 

Coming soon....?

[Arbour]

 

I think it's important to note that without proper diplomatic mechanics in game, no person or group of people speaks for a entire nation.  We do not have nations.  What we have is anarchy.  Different clans, with different goals, different strategies across all nations. 

 

The nation that can unify its player base towards a single goal and strategy will have the advantage.  Of course there's the whole numbers advantage, but that is a separate discussion

 

Very true.  France is a small enough nation that there are only 3 clans operating.  The 2 biggest were represented at this "negotiation" the third is well informed of the situation.  Pirates are just targeting Slamz because he said what we all were thinking in the meeting.  So he spoke for roughly 75% of France, and the rest aren't arguing.  A nation united, France is closer than most to that goal (I'm sure the Sweds, Dutch and Danes are pretty close to it too), but unfortunately/fortunately it's easier with smaller numbers and a obvious enemy.  

[Francis Tabernac]

People, people, please! Even if we're not on the same server, I think we can all agree that the important message here.. the one everyone should take home.. is Vive La France!

[Vllad]

All this forum PVP makes for a interesting read...

 

I think it's important to note that without proper diplomatic mechanics in game, no person or group of people speaks for a entire nation.  We do not have nations.  What we have is anarchy.  Different clans, with different goals, different strategies across all nations. 

 

 

 

 

This game is very feudal in nature which is what makes it fun. The advantage of a nation like France is it is easier for us to coordinate the entire nation and its goals since we are small and less inclined to be riddled with knuckleheads like some "unnamed" nations we have on PVP2. 

 

This nature of the game is what Slamz has been trying to point out above. Eventually even the US will splinter because of this feudal nature of the game. It will just require a little pressure. You don't have to look any further than our own Pirates on PVP2 as proof to what happens when feudalism takes over.  

 

Most people have no idea just how much fun it is to play a small nation in NA. The game is so much richer.

[Obliterati]

Honestly, the first south eastern pirates (myself included in this). Just wanted to leave for deeper waters. A pilgrimage into the unknown if you will. When you looked at the map at the time. Aves and Le Moule offered the most remote and underdog position. This shouldn't be misconstrued as running from the US, since this game promotes a group to strike out on their own. FYI, this same mentality is why the small British force is in the South East. Due to our early successes we were quickly joined by a couple of other deep water clans. Which has only expanded our success and caused a massive migration.

 

Timeline of events.

CF was first in the area and recruited enough to take a few ports resulting port Louis and Saint Francios being taken solo.

Invictus and OMG showed up and bolstered our numbers. Mostly cause they were looking for a more organized group. Resulting in Deshaies, Basse-terre, Ter de bas falling quickly there after

At this point we started receiving our first requests for aid from other pirates attempting to do the same thing. Specifically FC in the cano maco area. whom bartered CF's support by assisting with picket forces for the last few port battles.

The next night we took point de petre, grand anse, and flowed south to roslay and roseau.

At that point we started receiving requests for aid from various entities. one of these was SIN.

Which inevitably resulted in the situation you see today. With pirates moving into the far south eastern region. Though this group is technically separate from the original Invictus/OMG/CF agreements.

 

So while you're correct that this game is full of factions within factions. The unorganized groups are going to have a much harder time taking anything without the major power groups involved. Also unlike other nations Pirates CAN enforce order through power if they decide to within their own areas of operation.

 

Though at the same time the shear distance involved offers substantial security from the other major power blocks. Mostly due to travel time. The simple fact is that if the US or Brit decide to move into the east with enough power to matter. It'll open substantial risks in their rear area that the other would exploit. Specifically because capitals cannot be taken. Giving us a permanent base to strike at their unprotected rears in that event.

[Slamz]

Though at the same time the shear distance involved offers substantial security

 

Or it could have, had you played a smarter game of diplomacy with the locals.

 

One of my guildmates sacked a pirate Trader Brig last night that turned out to be full of iron. He was offered a lot of gold to let the Trader Brig go but decided to capture it instead. Now it's our iron. Turns out the only thing better than owning an iron port is letting pirates own it so we can sack their traders and get the iron for free.

 

 

So that's the future of your little "safe area ship building and mission running zone". We are actually pirates while you are a pug zerg herder who ended up with a black flag because you thought it was fashionable.

[Poe]

Or it could have, had you played a smarter game of diplomacy with the locals.

 

This is awesome, just saying.

 

And also, any deal you make with Pirates is going to be with that given clan or alliance.  My group (OMG) was at open war with U4V until they up and quit and went and joined yanks.

We like fighting everyone, telling any pirates not to attack nationals in a given area just isn't going to work unless they going to sit and protect you while you do whatever.

 

Roberts talks a strong game but we just murderer 5 of his 7 despite them having BR on us, he was last seen being the first to bail on his mates in his barely damaged 3rd rate...  Earlier the lads got into a huge fight with the dutch and killed off a 3rd rate, if French had showed up they would have fought them as well I am sure, its just how it is.

 

You Frenches might want to cut a deal with the Brits thou, they out in the eastern Antilles in force and a couple lil birds mentioned they looking to start a rukus.  And the nearest port they can use is deep in French land, is all I am saying.

[Bach]

 My group (OMG) was at open war with U4V until they up and quit and went and joined yanks..

I just don't get it. Why join the Yanks?

[Poe]

I just don't get it. Why join the Yanks?

 

They don't talk to me so I cant say.  I heard that they were in bed with em from the get go and that the yanks gave em 1 mil per when they came over to get ships and what not with.

 

Considering the hard on they had for the Brits and desire to ignore everything the Americans did in the Bahamas, despite being about 1/2 the pirate players the first one is pretty believable, particularly in retrospect as they would campaign in chat against fighting up that way.. The second one sounds thin, even thou the guy that told me is solid. I not sure where the Americans would have gotten so much cash that that was a viable thing.

[Slamz]

You Frenches might want to cut a deal with the Brits thou, they out in the eastern Antilles in force and a couple lil birds mentioned they looking to start a rukus.  And the nearest port they can use is deep in French land, is all I am saying.

 

We're not opposed to this, although I would not say they are "in force" at the moment unless there have been some very recent newcomers. We have an unofficial grumbling cease-fire with the ones here at the moment. Originally we were going to fight them to get them out of our backyard but then you-know-who showed up and suddenly the French find themselves liking the Brits more, if only by contrast.

 

Maybe there could be a future three-way war that could be interesting enough:

Team 1) Pirates

Team 2) U.S.

Team 3) Literally everyone else, spearheaded by the Brits.

 

This is assuming it's true that the U.S. is half the server population, as the rumors say. Really we should be siding with the pirates too in that case but there are too many too-cool-for-school pirates to have any real long term plans with them as a team and I assume a lot of them would rather just be their own force anyway.

[Taranis]

You have to give it to them - making "ze roast beef" look good in a Frenchman's eye, is quite an achievement.

[Æthlstan]

We as the french understand that you wont get straight deals with all the pirates. But the pirates are trying to act like a nation state at the same time and all the guilds down here are cooperating to some extent.

Our major issue was the not-a-deal that was offered to us. Taken at face value it was horrible. From talking to other nations and other sources about pirate plans and their other diplomatic dealings, it became clear that the deal wasnt just innocently a terrible one...the pirates were simply wrapping an ultimatum in a clock of a proposed treaty. It also became clear that this ultimatum wasnt going to be the end of it. That the pirates just wanted us out of the way for a bit so they could fight other enemies. Like the british and dutch. Then we would be back on the menu.

Cloak*

[komisches]

Honestly, the first south eastern pirates (myself included in this). Just wanted to leave for deeper waters. A pilgrimage into the unknown if you will. When you looked at the map at the time. Aves and Le Moule offered the most remote and underdog position. This shouldn't be misconstrued as running from the US, since this game promotes a group to strike out on their own. FYI, this same mentality is why the small British force is in the South East. Due to our early successes we were quickly joined by a couple of other deep water clans. Which has only expanded our success and caused a massive migration.

 

Timeline of events.

CF was first in the area and recruited enough to take a few ports resulting port Louis and Saint Francios being taken solo.

Invictus and OMG showed up and bolstered our numbers. Mostly cause they were looking for a more organized group. Resulting in Deshaies, Basse-terre, Ter de bas falling quickly there after

At this point we started receiving our first requests for aid from other pirates attempting to do the same thing. Specifically FC in the cano maco area. whom bartered CF's support by assisting with picket forces for the last few port battles.

The next night we took point de petre, grand anse, and flowed south to roslay and roseau.

At that point we started receiving requests for aid from various entities. one of these was SIN.

Which inevitably resulted in the situation you see today. With pirates moving into the far south eastern region. Though this group is technically separate from the original Invictus/OMG/CF agreements.

We, being Forsaken Corsairs, first moved from crowded, expensive Mortimer to Ile la Vache, until growing British aggression around Haiti pushed us out. We weren't in anything higher than maybe a Merc and wanted somewhere far from others to make a place to grow and learn. So we picked the South East. After we moved in, we found out that Crimson Flotilla was active further up the island chain and reached out the hand of friendship.

 

We initially had engagements with the Dutch (Hi Cpt Obvious) most days, until [sIN] and [TSP] moved in to Coquibacao and pulled the dutch focus to the west.

 

I was actually hoping for a france/pirate treaty to stand, to kick the british out and then turn both our attentions elsewhere. I get your point though about the "take the deal, or we take you out" attitude that came across though. My clan leader's original dream was that whole bay to be black, so that is the offer i went with.