Valdez Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Most of the economy stuff is yet to be seen how it is, but I agree with many people the amount of gold you get for a mission is way over the top. Should at least be half what it currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJWolf Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Why should a loaded trader carrying up to 4000 tons be faster than a combat ship? Please explain in detail. Perhaps we are missing something about cargo effects on speed. (no sarcasm intended). ps. trader lynx is still faster than anyone and cant be caught. Trader snow and brig could be caught anyway with the previous speed if tagged properly on the open world. How is a Trader vessel that much heavier? The Manila Galleons weren't above 2000 ton vessels, East Indiamen didn't exceed 1400 ton bm, so I fail to understand the logic of where 4000 ton merchant ships come from? Using a Snow class vessel as example, a combat vessel has a much larger compliment of crew (120 crew x 180 lb per person), cannons (26 x 1,500 lb), and all it's munitions (6 lb per cannon ball, powder charges, etc). More than likely a combat vessel is going to be weighed down more often than a Trade vessel of the era. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgey the edge Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 currently pvp3, price of oak is 200-250 to buy in port royal, this has climbed from 80-120 region since this patch, more people are hoarding it waiting for the prices to increase, sailing off to further lands the prices have raised from lows of around 30 to around 50-75 to highs of 120+ in ports which produce oak, now i can see this playing out either people will crash the market and rapid inflation kicks in, or their will be so much oak stock piled that the prices will fall as so many people will have such large ammounts stock piled and no space left for other items and crafting hours will curtail the usage of it in ship building, they will either stop buying it in bulk orders and the market will level or it will become so costly buying it in bulk and they will have a oak mountain that they will never be able to use or sell to recoup the costs. i think the main people complaining about the increase are those who wish to control the market and are now seeing that they will loose out. i for one was laughing at the fact i could make 5-6 times the cost per log back per log selling on contract all day long. trading is still lucrative even with the increases in production and rising costs due to contract buying, people should stop being so greedy imho, yes pvp3 isnt as populated as pvp1 but the numbers on the server have grown and the prices still fluctuate in the capital, some prices before this update did go insane with everyone ship building and oak did reach 600+ but they leveled out as people worked out that the more they sold at a lower profit (still double or 3 times or more than they paid) they could still rake in the money and sell faster than high priced items. raising the credits from missions brought about a sharp hike in prices for goods but this seems to of dropped back down today and im keeping a eye on the market. the extra cash will bring in more ship sales and more people might be tempted out of the basic cutters, which i think is more of a issue. im happy with the updates but agree hemp could do with a buff to its production, i also suspect that we might see some changes to ammounts produced for most resources until the devs figure out a happy medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I agree that some traders would certainly be slower than combat ships. I think that the issue here is not one of realism, but rather game balance. The game balance problem is that as the game stands now, carrying goods on the open ocean in a trader is not a viable activity because traders are defenseless. If you are a trader, your only defense is to run. Slowing traders down removes this defensive option. The way to solve this isn't by making traders faster or slower. The way to solve this is by allowing players to put traders in their fleet, so that they can defend the slow defenseless trade ships with their combat ship. Allow every player to have up to 2 traders in their fleet. These could be traders that they purchase, or traders that they capture. (Instead of having to take command of a trader you captured to preserve its cargo, give players the option to add a captured trader to your fleet.) I know some folks will say, "Why not just group up and have players in combat ships escort players in trade ships?" Well, theoretically, that's not a bad idea, but in practice, how many players want to spend hours of their time escorting someone else's trade ship, hoping not to run into pirates? Much better if a player is given the tools to defend his own ships. The player presumably has a combat ship in his arsenal. Why not let him utilize that combat ship to escort his trade ship(s.) Constructive feedback. I believe traders should be slower... But this post on having an npc trader in your fleet is pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guilford Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I enjoy the relatively minor XP increase. I think MMO's should have a grindy feel to them, and its where i feel it should be. Then again I loved EQ, so maybe i am a glutton for punishment. I rank up way to fast compared to my crafting level but I imagine this is balanced, I play more than the average player I think. Having a fully manned frigate right now makes me feel proud. I wouldn't want it to be trivial. I know gold is slightly irrelevant in this game as I have never had an issue buying anything but I have so much after just 1 day of grinding though that the idea of trading seems pointless to me now. I just dropped a couple hundred thousand into contracts for ship construction and called it a night. Oddly enough the price for components doubled, tripled, and in some cases increased 10X. I am willing to pay 250+ gp per plank now if it saves me crafting hours. My ship feels worthless now though. I had a phone call and instead of trying to multi task to win the battle, I just let myself get sunk because buying another frigate from a port is just a drop in the bucket. Purposely getting sunk by an AI fleet now appears a quick way to get back to port. My crafting XP the only thing I EVER worry about, I just wish I could keep it on pace with my captain rank. Currently I'll never be able to make a ship i'll actually use till I reach max rank. Something about using a ship I actually made is very appealing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozer Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 currently pvp3, price of oak is 200-250 to buy in port royal, this has climbed from 80-120 region since this patch, more people are hoarding it waiting for the prices to increase, sailing off to further lands the prices have raised from lows of around 30 to around 50-75 to highs of 120+ in ports which produce oak, now i can see this playing out either people will crash the market and rapid inflation kicks in, or their will be so much oak stock piled that the prices will fall as so many people will have such large ammounts stock piled and no space left for other items and crafting hours will curtail the usage of it in ship building, they will either stop buying it in bulk orders and the market will level or it will become so costly buying it in bulk and they will have a oak mountain that they will never be able to use or sell to recoup the costs. i think the main people complaining about the increase are those who wish to control the market and are now seeing that they will loose out. i for one was laughing at the fact i could make 5-6 times the cost per log back per log selling on contract all day long. trading is still lucrative even with the increases in production and rising costs due to contract buying, people should stop being so greedy imho, yes pvp3 isnt as populated as pvp1 but the numbers on the server have grown and the prices still fluctuate in the capital, some prices before this update did go insane with everyone ship building and oak did reach 600+ but they leveled out as people worked out that the more they sold at a lower profit (still double or 3 times or more than they paid) they could still rake in the money and sell faster than high priced items. raising the credits from missions brought about a sharp hike in prices for goods but this seems to of dropped back down today and im keeping a eye on the market. the extra cash will bring in more ship sales and more people might be tempted out of the basic cutters, which i think is more of a issue. im happy with the updates but agree hemp could do with a buff to its production, i also suspect that we might see some changes to ammounts produced for most resources until the devs figure out a happy medium. what happy medium? In current system there is no such thing. You either have resource so abundant that you can find it everywhere in huge quantities and no one cares about it (what happened to iron after last patch), or it is in low or very low supply which means there are contracts for this bottleneck resource in absolutely every port that produces it, 100% of the ammount produced immediatelly disappears into contracts and then it is either hoarded (to make buffer for crafting) or ends being resold in nation capital at very inflated price. There is no point trying to check ports if you find the resource there ... unless you have contract placed you won't find it, period. So all you can do is place contract, which is now way easier because with the increased gold rewards you have a lot more money you can dump into contracts. Which means that any bottleneck resource production will still keep disappearing immediatelly ... There are how many ports on the map in total ... 250? Depending on nation you can access maybe 60-100 ports (your nation + neutral), maybe 1/3 of those are producing the resource you need ... that brings you to number somewhere around 30 ports (maybe less for small nations with few ports, maybe more for bigger nations). So all you need is 30 contracts and entire production is gone. Is there anyone crazy enough to think that economy can work in situation where 30 contracts can completely bottleneck production, on server that has over 2k players online during peak time and much larger total player count? With the current system we will always be in this economic hellhole where any resource is either 100% irrelevant or 100% bought out everywhere. No middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrapeShot Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I know some folks will say, "Why not just group up and have players in combat ships escort players in trade ships?" Well, theoretically, that's not a bad idea, but in practice, how many players want to spend hours of their time escorting someone else's trade ship, hoping not to run into pirates?I've seen that happen frequently. In national waters warships almost always go to the aid of their fellow traders.For longer voyages with valuable cargo people usually ask around for escort (as do large SOLs in transit for that matter). Edited February 10, 2016 by GrapeShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 I agree that some traders would certainly be slower than combat ships. I think that the issue here is not one of realism, but rather game balance. We did not want to nerf traders to death. But from what I witnessed capturing loaded traders was a pain and caused a lot of cognitive dissonance (fully stocked, but still faster than your super speed fitted ship) We believe the 1knot nerf is reasonable and most traders on OW are NPCs. Players usually sail with groups or are taking safer routes. btw. the real trader speed nerf is actually less than 0.3-0.5 knots. Because guns lose you from 0.5 to 1 knots of speed depending on their type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Roberts Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Sad soo many people are having a cry about this patch, I thought it was perfect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingRoss Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 We did not want to nerf traders to death. But from what I witnessed capturing loaded traders was a pain and caused a lot of cognitive dissonance (fully stocked, but still faster than your super speed fitted ship) We believe the 1knot nerf is reasonable and most traders on OW are NPCs. Players usually sail with groups or are taking safer routes. btw. the real trader speed nerf is actually less than 0.3-0.5 knots. Because guns lose you from 0.5 to 1 knots of speed depending on their type. I do not know who had issues with capturing NPC traders that had any knowledge of the game. Maybe the trader cutters/lynx because of sails used, but even those I could capture just fine using a snow. A snow was able to catch every NPC trader. They did not use the correct wind angles or manual sails. There was no issue capturing them on OW either as they moved substantially slower than full speed. If this was truly a nerf to speed for people to catch NPC traders more easily than it already was, that is just sad in my eyes. 1. The snow is not 4,000 tons. You have the units in pounds. So really it contains less than 2 tons of cargo. If you are going to claim that it is in tons. What historical artifacts weighs .2 tons? What historical artifacts weight 400 pounds? We are selling 1 ton of hemp per unit? 2. How much does all the all the cannons, cannon balls, extra crew, extra provisions for that extra crew, the powder, and not to mention the extra armor that is not one the snow. So you honestly want me to believe that it is in the design of the game that a Live Oak Snow warship goes faster than a fir trader snow with no cannons? Look, I love this game and everything that you in the development team has done. But if you are going to nerf traders OW speed as well as Battle speed, you are basically telling all people that want to trade to not bother. There is now a full guarantee, that every ship out on OW can catch you no matter what you do. So unless you are always by a reinforcement area, or somehow you convince 2-3 other players that it is a great time and great fun to sail around by your side for 2-4 hours as you are trading and they get to stare at the screen, a trader will never dare enter foreign waters because everyone will know it is an easy kill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulysse77 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 here`s a suggestion.... It seems the effect of the oak production increase are not really felt yet, as some contract seem like not filled, and people adding more contract at even higher price, and it doesn`t give a chance for production to catch up.... How about a huge drop of oak. Just a one shot deal, in order to fill outstanding contract, i may be wrong, but didn`t dev already did that months ago... Long term, my suggestion is not limit contract price, but limit the contract amount... How about you cant put a contract of more 10% of the daily production.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcCera Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The question after all of this discussion is for me, whats the goal of the game in the end? An easy after work wargame for the casual player like WOT and WOB, where everybody can reach Rear Admiral after 4 weeks of playing 2 hours a day or should it become something unique you have to grind for a bigger ship, where you have only 1 out of 10 or even 20 players have a 1st rate. I can life with both options, but I would love to hear it first, because if it gets the first way, I will play it casual 1 or 2 hours a day, when I want to sink some ships in a Age of Sails setting and nice graphics but then I don´t bother anymore with going from port to port and noting down the market prices, to work out good trading routes and then it is, to be honest, the wrong long term "many hours a day" game for me. Because I love the grind, the stress, the thrill of reaching something I really have worked a long time for. And NO this is not another: DO what I want or I leave posting, its simply a conclusion, that I don´t have to bother with something, if it isn´t the right game for me (I won´t play a shooter, no matter how good it is, how much work the devs invested etc, its simply the wrong genere for me then). ATM the game feels for me like World of Warships in the 18th century with a attached map where you can sail and some NPCs. The economy isn´t working, the crafting system is a nice add on, but I still don´t understand why everybody has to be able to do everthing (Crafting, Fighting, Trading) at the same Efficiency level. All this discussion arround here, in this topic and others, is more a discussion of this here described underlaying problem: Casual Gamer (I want to get my super ass big warship tomorrow) VS Long Term player (I´d like to play this game for a long time, and still want to have some goals to reach), this two Playerstyles also have some other very important destinctions: Micro- and Macromanagment. The first player dislikes the idea of bothering with crew managment, ammunition, trading while the second player would love it to be able to load every single cannon with different ammunition types. You won´t be able to make both player types happy in the long term, except you make an Immersion RPG server (Long term) and an Arena like PVP Server (Casual) but that would be two different games, with one "engine". What would be possible on the Long Term Players side, is an option to deligate certain things to an "Officer", so that the Part Time Casual player (not the full Casual player, that would never work, because he won´t care to get the settings right first, and will then start whining that it is to complicated) still has fun. ATM if you read the description of the game on Steam and on the Website, BOTH player types have the feel that this could be the RIGHT game for them, but in the end, both sides are not so happy with it (because of the said things). And it would be fair for BOTH player types to know, whats the plan in the end. If this question allready got answered and I haven´t red it yet, I apologize, if this questions has not answered... well, then it should get cleared first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanay Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 We did not want to nerf traders to death. But from what I witnessed capturing loaded traders was a pain and caused a lot of cognitive dissonance (fully stocked, but still faster than your super speed fitted ship) We believe the 1knot nerf is reasonable and most traders on OW are NPCs. Players usually sail with groups or are taking safer routes. btw. the real trader speed nerf is actually less than 0.3-0.5 knots. Because guns lose you from 0.5 to 1 knots of speed depending on their type. For what is see around me, many of us sail traders alone and due to the shortage of resources we have to go each time further to find resources for our crafting, when in safe waters of the Nation you can ask for help and people will usually be kind enough to come at your rescue when needed, but outside those safe waters only clans or small group of organized players can afford to have an escort of real players, and past the rank 4 we can't have a AI fleet to distract a bit the enemies, and i'm sure the guys i cross the path often outside the safe areas and I are not isolated case. Thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Boneboys Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The drop in NPC trader speed for those that are new to the game and / or have Cutter or similar class is a welcome and considerate change. The difficulty to fight damage, board and capture remains the same and will not ruin the game for player tradesmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkwolf Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 here`s a suggestion.... It seems the effect of the oak production increase are not really felt yet, as some contract seem like not filled, and people adding more contract at even higher price, and it doesn`t give a chance for production to catch up.... How about a huge drop of oak. Just a one shot deal, in order to fill outstanding contract, i may be wrong, but didn`t dev already did that months ago... Long term, my suggestion is not limit contract price, but limit the contract amount... How about you cant put a contract of more 10% of the daily production.... The problem is the buy contracts themselves. A buy contract should be filled by other players looking to sell resources they have gathered to a player who doesnt want to go out and find the resource himself, he just wants to put a contract in port and pay more to somebody willing to fill the contract. Having Ports fill these contracts is whats causing the problem. If you want to get resources out of a port you should have to sail your butt over there and buy it, plain and simple. They can change the amount the ports produce or the amount of gold we make till their faces turn blue, it wont change a thing. all that will happen is people will raise the price of their buy contracts because money is easyer to get. and if they really want to make it interesting remove the capital teleport with trade ships that way people have to actually sail their goods back home from that far away port they found oak at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slamz Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 it will be player based once production buildings are added. 10 players will have x production slots providing supply for Y players. 1000 players will have 100x production slots providing supply for 100Y players. Right now criticizing fixed NPC supply is basically useless as it will not matter. This will become dangerous. Just be aware that even when POTBS was subscription based, players would buy multiple accounts for production purposes. Naval Action will always be one good Steam Sale away from people buying 3 more accounts to have x4 production for x1 consumption. I don't know that this is reason enough to kill the concept of player produced goods but if no work is involved other than logging in and pushing a button (as in POTBS) then it can wreck the concept of an economy. (Everyone simply produces their own stuff, using their own alternate accounts.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulysse77 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 The problem is the buy contracts themselves. A buy contract should be filled by other players looking to sell resources they have gathered to a player who doesnt want to go out and find the resource himself, he just wants to put a contract in port and pay more to somebody willing to fill the contract. Having Ports fill these contracts is whats causing the problem. If you want to get resources out of a port you should have to sail your butt over there and buy it, plain and simple. They can change the amount the ports produce or the amount of gold we make till their faces turn blue, it wont change a thing. all that will happen is people will raise the price of their buy contracts because money is easyer to get. and if they really want to make it interesting remove the capital teleport with trade ships that way people have to actually sail their goods back home from that far away port they found oak at. This was dicussed over and over in the last 6 months, in the end, dev, and most early tester, came to a conclusion that sailing 1 hours is fun the first time on a route, but it`s a chore the 100th time. So imagine sailing to an empty port. at some point you could set up deliveries from anywhere to anywhere and TP, with your ship to everywhere... But back then capacity of trader is much less than now. So contract need to be tuned a bit, but i highly doubt they will disappear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdez Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 btw. the real trader speed nerf is actually less than 0.3-0.5 knots. Because guns lose you from 0.5 to 1 knots of speed depending on their type. This is the first time I've heard of this, can I find a post that explains this more? Or someone tell me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quineloe Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 dont reinvent the wheel: credit gold and xp after the enemy ship has sunk. when a player got sunk, he wont provide any gold or xp, for the next 30min, or even an hour to prevent damage farming reduce gold from pve (keep the xp), violently icrease xp and gold from pvp. No one invented the wheel yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokerjoker Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Hello Captains A small set of fixes was deployed in the today's patch Open sea repairs increased to 40% from 25% - we hated that you needed to click repair button 4 times after every battle Privateer speed increased by 0.5 knots Prices to sell ships to port for lower level ships increased (will help in crafting and provide more options in selling crafting ships that no-one buys from the market. Mission XP and monetary compensation increased Trading ships speed reduced by 1 knots for every vessel Gun loss chance increased European traders now sell goods at slightly better prices Gold production increased 2x Fir production increased 3x Oak production increased 3x European traders now sell goods at slightly better prices can anyone explain this? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVolks Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I had no idea what that meant either... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PongoNW Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 They would have done better to give the whining reviewers who did not want to grind a Lt Commander account and a supprise rather then pander to them with the xp buff like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJWolf Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) The drop in NPC trader speed for those that are new to the game and / or have Cutter or similar class is a welcome and considerate change. The difficulty to fight damage, board and capture remains the same and will not ruin the game for player tradesmen. People who are new to the game should be focusing on grinding missions, definitely not capturing trade ships. Second, if you are struggling to capture traders in a Cutter then you have yet to reach a sufficient skill level regardless of ship class you sail. The Cutter is fundamentally the easiest vessel to catch trade ships in due to the simplistic nature of control, the limitation of it is it's crew capacity, not speed or armament. Nerfing trade vessels is simply a slap in the face for all non-combat orientated players. EDIT: Spelling Edited February 11, 2016 by JJWolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Boneboys Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 People who are new to the game should be focusing on grinding missions, definitely not capturing trade ships.... How durst thee sire dict that which any Captain "focus on" or how they raise their sails. Any crew member that uttered such nonsensical gibberish in my midst would be keel hauled at the first rise then hung to dry his blistered self on the highest of yard arms until the last dog watch 8 bells rang ! I fairly doubt that your vessel boarded and thine charge lifted by any other than a fearsome NPC scoundrel ! I tarry longer not, good day to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quineloe Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 People who are new to the game should be focusing on grinding missions, definitely not capturing trade ships. Second, if you are struggling to capture traders in a Cutter then you have yet to reach a sufficient skill level regardless of ship class you sail. The Cutter is fundamentally the easiest vessel to catch trade ships in due to the simplistic nature of control, the limitation of it is it's crew capacity, not speed or armament. Nerfing trade vessels is simply a slap in the face for all non-combat orientated players. EDIT: Spelling So new players shouldn't meddle in your ship crafting business? Because capturing traders right now is the only way to get your hands on resources without being price gouged or traveling around the map for an entire evening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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