Are ships too cheap?

[Mighty Bouff]

I've posted this in here as it touches on a few points, not just the headline...

 

Are ships too cheap - It seems to me in playing the game and reaching the lofty rank of Master & Commander that player crafted ships (and to an extent NPC sold basic ones) are too cheap. I have around 200k gold already, and thats after having dropped quite a bit on various upgrades, cannons and an Exceptional Surprise, I even bought quite a lot of the materials at Port Royal prices (massively inflated).

 

Looking at the raw build costs for a Santi or Victory (which I'd prefer) it strikes me that they are too cheap. A player I sail with who just hit flag captain has over 2m gold just from the battles he's fought to gain that rank. With a Santi looking to cost about 500k this seems pretty crazy.

 

I know a lot of people are complaining about the scarcity of resources, but I'm now coming round to the idea that this is good as it will drive up prices. Too many cheap resources and we will all be in Exceptional First Rates before you know whats happened, and ship losses won't keep up with production forcing price crashes and the death of the trader/crafter only profession.

 

For me I think the ships should be more expensive, possibly by a factor of 10. The impact of this would touch on a few areas:

 

It would make captured 1 durability ships worth quite a bit more as they would be significantly cheaper than player crafted ships, as it is there is no point in me paying for a captured ship when I can just drop the cash buying an exceptional player crafted ship

 

Ship losses would 'mean' more, in that their loss would be greater financially. Now this will affect some players differently, it may discourage some from PVP, though for me it would make winning all the sweeter if you know how much it has cost them and their nation.

 

Depending on how it was implemented (raising costs for resources or my preference to massively increase the amount of resources needed for crafting) it will affect the trading game, hopefully putting more ships on the sea to generate content.

 

I know we all want to jump into a first rate as soon as possible, but I don't think we all want to do it if every player is also in an exceptional first rate. We need to see diversity of ships on the sea, and controlling costs is one way of achieving this.

 

So my proposal for discussion is as follows: increase resources required for player crafted ships by approximately 10x for high tier ships, scaling down to no change for cutters. Keep the number of crafting notes required for 'exceptional' as 4 for low level ships, ~6-10 for 5th Rates and around 30-40 for 1st Rates - I want these ships to be massively expensive that when somebody deploys one in a Port Battle the forums and reddit light up in awe.

 

All I ask is that if you do or not agree please keep it civil and lets thrash out some good thoughts!

 

EDIT - Now ships are even cheaper with the mission changes!

Edited February 9, 2016 by Mighty Bouff

[OlavDeng2]

i dont think ships are too cheap imho, it is just that we dont have many sources of outcome, apart from port battles and buying ships there really isnt much money sinks, i believe in the future that will change.

[Mighty Bouff]

i dont think ships are too cheap imho, it is just that we dont have many sources of outcome, apart from port battles and buying ships there really isnt much money sinks, i believe in the future that will change.

What else would there be to spend money on? I mean the ships are the focus of the whole game (in my mind)

[OlavDeng2]

What else would there be to spend money on? I mean the ships are the focus of the whole game (in my mind)

Provicions, ship maintanance, production buildings, port defences are a couple of suggestions that come to mind(and production buildings are on teh way)

 

edit: also another thing, if you use the first rates in PVP chances are you will die a couple of times, and they are 1 dura ships, so that is one way they are more of a money sink as well.

[colorado71]

Probably some people have enough time to play this wonderful game and to make a lot of gold. Personally, I play it a few hours a month and I will probably never get a first rate as Victory, and the way as it looks in the game is actually the main reason I bought this product.

So, you can simply conclude the ships are too expensive.

In my opinion the best solution is that any player to be able to have access to any ship he want, anytime he want it.

[ZeroEmpires]

In my opinion the best solution is that any player to be able to have access to any ship he want, anytime he want it.

 

You have to be kidding?

[Don Alfonso]

The ships only appear to be 'cheap' if you've found yourself a superb way to make money - which tends to be at the cost of others' enjoyment (referring to traders selling oak at over 500 per piece to crafters).

 

The game is a grind enough with the XP, no need to add an extra grind on saving up for ships (which aren't even permanent).

[Mighty Bouff]

The ships only appear to be 'cheap' if you've found yourself a superb way to make money - which tends to be at the cost of others' enjoyment (referring to traders selling oak at over 500 per piece to crafters).

 

The game is a grind enough with the XP, no need to add an extra grind on saving up for ships (which aren't even permanent).

I'm not so sure, I've made quite a lot just killing fleets (seems to be the best XP and Gold), I've done a little trading but thats mainly moving ships into nations capital and adding a premium to cover my time.

 

For example 4/5 of us last night were killing fleets.Each one took around 30 minutes and was giving me (in my undermanned consti) 700xp and 15k gold.

[Pirate]

You have to remember that because of durability you are buying a different number of ships with each purchase. 

 

Due to durability most of the ships are dirt cheap. A Fine Renomme for example costs around 75k to make. With 5 durability it is only 15k each. You can go out and PvP with that, get sunk every single battle and nearly make your money back just by putting up a good fight. 

 

Compare that to the 250k cost of a Basic Santissma and, well there you have it. On top of that, because it only has 1 durability, you will lose all the nice mods you presumably want to put on your super powerful ship. 

[Mighty Bouff]

Probably some people have enough time to play this wonderful game and to make a lot of gold. Personally, I play it a few hours a month and I will probably never get a first rate as Victory, and the way as it looks in the game is actually the main reason I bought this product.

So, you can simply conclude the ships are too expensive.

In my opinion the best solution is that any player to be able to have access to any ship he want, anytime he want it.

 

I know what you mean, but heartily disagree. The top ships should only be available to those who pursue them ardently. I really don't want to see fleets of 1st and 2nd rates cruising the oceans. In my mind most people should be in 5th rates for most of their time, and for big port battles 4th and 3rd rates, with the odd second rate.

 

If you look at history I don't think there was ever a 1st Rate stationed in this region (though some may have visited - history chaps please correct me!), and while everybody wants to sail one, I'm not sure they should be able to. I hope they are rubbish in PVE and only excel at PVP ideally I'd like them to be an expensive, risky but rewarding PVP choice.

[BramtheDutch]

It is to mention that even if you bought the 500k of rescources you still need 100.000 crafting hours (got that number from a crafter on ts who calculated it).

I think for frigates and other ships we got the right number, but first and second rates are still way to cheap.

The first rate should be a guild goal and a major achievement if youre guild owns one, because they were nuclear weapons in those days, they should be very rare.

Edited February 9, 2016 by bramluijken

[Quineloe]

Do you expect to be dead broke after getting a ship upgrade?

[Don Alfonso]

Here's a way to put it, you should be able to reasonably earn back the money you put forward into buying a ship and then some. Otherwise there is no progression.

[Blood Eagle]

The money/grind are fine as they are now. They are not easy, and require a good time committment. Because we have elements of risk vs reward centered PVP you can't put roadblocks in terms of creating a fair and balanced environment.

How so?

 

The community as it stands now will not always be around, Everyone is somewhat content right now because everyone is near each other in terms of rank. When the game has not be wiped for a while, and has been out for a while, a vast majority will be players with great ships. When they start leaving the game and are replaced by noobs who starting out in their cutters and only find themselves in a sea full of high tier ships they will never stay with the game, certainly so if the grind is way to long.

 

See darkfall 1 for proof.

[Tremor]

too cheap ?

 

i am always out of money

buying all that outposts is very expensive ^^

(or the ai fleet, or the repair costs, or the upgrades, or the crafting resources, or .....)

[Ratline]

The ships only appear to be 'cheap' if you've found yourself a superb way to make money - which tends to be at the cost of others' enjoyment (referring to traders selling oak at over 500 per piece to crafters).

 

The game is a grind enough with the XP, no need to add an extra grind on saving up for ships (which aren't even permanent).

 

I'm guessing you have not logged in yet today post patch. They're practically throwing gold at players. Ships are certainly devalued at this point.

[Don Alfonso]

I posted that a couple of hours before the patch came out... now money is more prevalent, I will concede that ships are probably cheaper.

 

All that said, increasing the money we have to spend could end up in the market selling their ships and crafting goods at higher prices (as people will be inclined to pay more).

[Slamz]

This thread is very different for PvE or PvP.

 

For PvE you may be right if only because PvE is practically a no-loss game. You can almost always run away and NPCs won't have the foresight (or skill) to demast you, so for pure PvE players yeah, ships are cheap and you'll all be in 1st rates.

 

 

There is a question in my mind of where the break even point will be for the average player in PvP, though. (i..e, "the real game")

 

That is, you can pretty well sail a _______ all the time and between wins and losses, that's where you break even. Any higher and you lose money, any lower and you can't help but gain money.

 

I think I would like to see a break even point of around, oh, maybe the Surprise level. Above average players who win more may break even around Frigate. Exceptional players may break even around Constitutions or even 3rd rates. I don't expect anyone to break even on 1st rates or 2nd rates. If the best player tries to sail one all the time I expect he should lose more money on durability than he gains on combat, at least in PvP.

 

Below average players may end up breaking even on a Cerebus or a Snow. (Really awful players will obviously have to alternate between a Cutter and something else when they can afford it.)

 

 

I don't have a feel for where this point really is right now but I bet if your friend with 2m gold decided to start PvPing full time in a 1st rate, he'd be broke pretty quick. Report back if that's not the case.

 

If all he does in PvE then you should stop talking to him because he sounds like a really dull person.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Slamz

[Prater]

I think small ships should be cheaper still.  Once we have small crafting notes, small ships will be a lot more useful and less expensive.

[Kilo]

Not all players come here to the game for the trading aspect and don't enjoy it. They too need an avenue in which to earn enough to participate in pvp port battles as risk vs cost enters the equation. It's a developed pvp game at the core and the more pvp or (just combat in general) the better. I think it's a good choice by the developers. They've given more resources to curb infllation and now one segment that's been left behind can buy their own (other player's) made ships.

[The MetaBaron]

I don't have an issue with the costs, if anything almost nobody wants to run with a Basic or Common from the shops. The market has determined the price of Mastercraft etc... builds to be several time, and usually on the edge of what you can afford at your rank.

[Mighty Bouff]

Many of the Spanish rated vessels were built in the Caribbean - including the Santisima Trinidad.

There were large fleet actions including the Saints, where a fleet of 36 (including 2 first rates) engaged a fleet of 33 (including one first rate) in a fairly one sided but hard fought close action.

 

Thanks!

[Noif]

After new update game and players are getting a lot money from missions. Also those ship's prices should be higher now.

[Tindahbawx]

Far too cheap given the new mission payouts and the fact that crafted ships come with 5 "lives".

[Lefort]

i dont think ships are too cheap imho, it is just that we dont have many sources of outcome, apart from port battles and buying ships there really isnt much money sinks, i believe in the future that will change.

Wouldn't that means there's massive inflation and the ships should be selling higher not for less, I think players are just don't comprehend how much time it takes to make these things and the people selling them just don't care cause they already have so much money or are being charitable which isn't a bad thing as long as they sell in house to nation. It does kind of stink though if your trying to get yourself some money as well but with the current income buffs I don't see anyone running out of money unless contract sellers realize gold value is very very low currently.

 

Although the reason ships selling for so little currently also would be aided by the really high durability for player made ships, I mean whose getting their ship sunk 5 times so quickly most players just run from PVP as it's usually a lopsided engagement so unless someone gets jumped and can't escape that's only one person losing 1 durability he's likely not going to get jumped again for awhile.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Lefort