Ramming ruination

[Crankey]

I was in my Santissima last night in a PVP game with just a couple of SOL the rest being frigs and lighter ships. Captain Chromey was my counterpart on the opposite team and it looked to being a nice balanced knife edge fight.

 

However one of the brig players (Captain Black Harwood?) from the opposite team rammed three of our ships including my Santi, I had to use a repair or sail the entire game without my bowsprit and also had to switch to repair mode to control some leaks. Later in the same game a surprise rammed my ship and 'remained in a ramming full sail position' which prevented me from turning which in turn prevented me from turning my stern away from enemy ships who badly raked me.

 

My questions are these.

 

Should a brig of any tonnage survive 3 full speed rams against larger ships and actually cause a leak on the Santissima ?

 

Is a ram to prevent a ship manouvring a valid realistic tactic ?  atm we have no after match effect so sink or swim we have no bad effects from suicidal manouvres.

 

I hope that losing your ship and crew/officers is something to be avoided at all costs in the final release game.

 

[StandingCow]

Weird, not sure how he didn't sink... I rammed a constitution in my snow (out of curiosity) and promptly sunk. 

[Hethwill]

A simple potion of mass and speed with equal parts of action and reaction added with a reasonable quantity of ship structural damage while stirring energetically at the points of impact...

 

...and on the other hand you have a computer game. Sarcasm off.

 

Issue with this is not related to one ship only. It is some code that relates to the collisions.

 

In truth it can be enhanced given all small ships can do that to bigger ones, so a Surprise can do that to a Bellona for example as much as a Cutter can do it to a Surprise or a Yacht to a Snow.

 

The issue is prevalent at all levels and you can make a bigger ship sink very very very fast while your small ship remains afloat with minor damage. Strangely enough had this happen with my Surprise being "shoved" broadside to broadside by a light ship. immediately a ton of leaks were shown and had no chance to recover. The little bugger kept fighting.

[SirWili]

Sure. This is just to test the battle mechanics. When the game goes live and you have to buy or otherwise accuire your ships, I think that ramming will be a last ditch effort and/or used only in military operations for tactical advantage.

And while we are still waiting for dmg model version 4, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If ramming stays like it is now after that, then I would be worried.

[fabo]

Definitly it should not be possible. Big ships should have no problem with moving smaller vessels out of the way and to withstand more collision dmg than the small ships would. So eventually the surprise should have sanked after a few seconds. While you would have sustained small to medium dmg.

 

That's my opinion.

[Naginata]

shouldnt smaller ships sink by freaking ramming a bigger ship? @.@

[StaleMemes]

I've noticed that once all the armor is depleted on a side, it forms something of a black hole for damage, I have survived 2 full broadsides from a 1st rate in my yacht, because each time I got away and repaired. This would probably work with ramming as well.

 

(note that when I say survived I mean 'did not sink,' my ship was all kinds of screwed up as can be expected.)

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

1. Any ship of reasonable size plowing into another ship's side of this era bow first would likely cause a lot of leakage.

2. Any ship plowing into another that is same size or larger at a speed over 4 or 5 knots would very likely lose all of their masts, at least above the main mast - the rigging can't take the sudden strain.

3. A much larger ship hitting a smaller ship amidships at a decent speed would sink the smaller ship, however, at the cost of a lot of leaking.

 

Ramming is far too survivable right now.  I'd like to see a high potential for lost masts and a lot more leaking.  This will cause more angst when friendlies accidentally get tangled up, but we really should be encouraging people to do everything possible to avoid ramming.

[DraigUK]

The current issue is simply ramming into big ships in a smaller one hurts the big ship too much and little one not enough.

It should be a last ditch effort to cause some damage not a tactic used to destroy SOL by small ships early in a game even when the small ship dies it often does a lot of damage to the SOL - too much damage - enough to cost the game for the entire team if there is one SOL on each team. Losing a Brig or two for a team by ramming the enemy SOL allows their own SOL to wreak havoc with much reduced comebacks if the enemy SOL is at the bottom for the cost of a couple of small ships.

 

I've had it happen to me several times when in my Santi.

 

Does it matter at this stage of Alpha testing? Probably not.

 

When it goes to open and you have clans who take a couple of small ships along to a fight with the express purpose of suicide ramming into much larger ships? Yes it will matter. A lot.

Especially when players will have worked hard (presumably) to get that big ship and maintain it. Watching it all go up in smoke as a result of a small ship ramming them (or in near future suicidal fiery explosion) does concern me a bit.

[Crankey]

I personally think that a ship of 200 ton or less such as the Brig would hit a 1st rate like it would hit a stone wall.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

The problem with that assumption is the construction methods, and the physics of the action.

 

 

First of all, you have something pointy.  The pointy object is able to exert more pounds per square inch on what it hits, due to a reduced surface area.  You also have a structure that is reinforced by the keel being lengthwise - this also, I believe, lends strength.

 

So you have a reinforced, pointy object, exerting a great amount of force on planks that are perpendicular to the force, which are themselves mounted to braces (which, to be fair, are pretty close together in a warship to lend strength.  The weak point here is the seams.  In between the planks is caulking which is primarily responsible for keeping the water out.  Simply working in a heavy sea is enough for those seams to expand and contract, causing the ship to make water.  In this case, you've just applied tons of force to that planking and those seams, which I believe may shatter some of the planks themselves, definitely work the bolts/nails holding the planks loose (and cause the wood to fracture around those holes, further loosening the planks), and potentially damage one or more of the timbers themselves.  In effect, you smash a vertical gash in the hull.

 

Personally, I think it's reasonable that if a brig plows into the side of a Santi at a high rate of speed, the Santi will spring one or more leaks.  However, the brig should be demasted and dealing with massive flooding from the completely smashed up bow.

[mouse of war]

In the future game non-accidental ramming will probably not be much of a problem when people realise that it'll cost them dear.

[Thomas Blackwell]

I've had people try to sink my via ramming. If you see someone coming in for a ram, switch to survival, it will lessen your chances of being sunk. When ships are given actual value, these dishonourable captains will think twice before risking their ship.

[ajffighter86]

I like the mast idea. I think more masts breaking would mean any little ship that tries to ram would be reduced to dead slow or stopped speed. Suddenly 600+ very angry sailors are looking down at their 40-man crew, spinning grappling hooks over their heads.

 

Game over.

[SirWili]

I personally think that a ship of 200 ton or less such as the Brig would hit a 1st rate like it would hit a stone wall.

Nope. It would be like hitting a balsa wall. Ships were heavy, but not designed for crashes. You shouldnt look at the mass alone, most important thing is the durability of the structure. How much pressure can a wooden plank take?

Damage is comparable to the damage which a wooden house would take from being hit by a speeding truck.

[DraigUK]

In the future game non-accidental ramming will probably not be much of a problem when people realise that it'll cost them dear.

 

The thing that worries me is that it won't cost them dear.

 

Get a Cutter costing 100 gold. Now get two of them. = 200g.

 

Now ram those into a Santi costing 200,000 gold and sink the Santi.

 

Of course I am making up the costs in gold to give an example, but anyone who thinks this won't happen in Open world especially with the larger organised clans hasn't played many competitive MMO. To these clans paying in the example 200g for two of their members to take them out to battle and ram into the biggest enemy ship to ensure victory will definitely happen.

 

I've come across certain clans in my time that would do this just to grief people.  This is my concern, so I hope devs think of this going forward.

 

Historical accuracy is all well and good, but being able to do this isn't, if you have spent some hundred hours of game time to get to and afford a Santi to have it get sunk by a couple of Cutters.

 

Ram damage does need to scale with the ships size to avoid this in my opinion.

[Hethwill]

Shoot the Cutter before it gets close.

 

A game cannot have mechanics to cover the "human factor". We will always find ways to re-write the ways the tools are used.

 

And as you said, consequence must be real harsh ( please please devs do not make mechanics that reward failure! )  for a captain to think twice before sacrificing his ship.

[jackplego]

I've noticed that once all the armor is depleted on a side, it forms something of a black hole for damage, I have survived 2 full broadsides from a 1st rate in my yacht, because each time I got away and repaired. This would probably work with ramming as well.

 

(note that when I say survived I mean 'did not sink,' my ship was all kinds of screwed up as can be expected.)

What you start to see is the cannonballs going through the dead side and hitting the other side, opening more leaks

[Lord Hood]

I have witnessed a few rams performed in storm engagements and the result is incredibly devastating. When having a round in a Snow the other day a cutter saw that he had little chance and the ram (it was accidental as he was trying to turn for my stern which even I have done to attempt a rake from time to time so no ill will harboured) almost annihilated my Snow, good thing is he went down first and my crew worked liked devils to keep me afloat! 

[Jeheil]

I have accidentaly rammed folks, rammed folks through terrible sailing and on occassion just gone all Taliban.......in all cases the bigger ship takes probably more damage than seems appropriate....and the smaller ship survives in far better shape (proportionately).

 

Some of this is due to the repair mechanics...I am not sure you should be able to fix a prow during a battle...when it has been knocked off....or indeed a mast....equally, at the moment a leak is a leak, there aren't BIG leaks and LITTLE leaks. If I stick my (sub Belona) nose into the side of a Santi or Vic, I should of course cause them some damage...but my leaks should be massive...almost always fatal and not allow me to sail away at a good speed, shoot and simply issue one or two repair kits.

 

Big leaks should be 'all hands' survival, where no guns can be fired or loaded and severely lmited sailing is possible.

 

I played a game 2 nights ago in my Trinc...where as I approached an opposing Surprise, I was intending to sail past his bow and rake him...as I lined up...I got rammed in the bottom by an opposing Surprise and an enemy cuttet sailed under my prow. I lost my prow...my rudder...and promptly smashed into the side/rear of my intended target....who then spent 20 minutes chat-hassling me for ramming him.....oh for a saveable replay or/and combat log.

 

Ah well, its Alpha, they are learning, we are learning.....but irrespective of how we improve as sailors and they improve the physics on occasion, due to muppetry, suicide or poor techniques...you will be rammed and it will always hurt.

[SYN_Bloody-Bandy]

...

Big leaks should be 'all hands' survival, where no guns can be fired or loaded and severely lmited sailing is possible.

...you will be rammed and it will always hurt.

 

First point, exactly how many crew do you think can be detailed to fix leaks at any one time?  All the crew?  Of course the ship will continue loading, shooting and moving as necessary, perhaps just for in game purposes at a reduced level, but not zero...

 

Second, I'm sure ramming (accidental and intentional) did occur, but yes, the ilittle ships should not get away with it.  Getting rid of repairs (or only just one) will go a long way to remediating this.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Actually, most of them.  There's running the chain pumps, fothering the hull with one or more sails, which can take a lot of folks to handle (as well as require an interruption in firing while they're putting the sail over the side and carefully working it down the hull), people in the bilge fitting plugs and pounding them home.  Sure, it's not all of them, but it's probably enough to put you out of action if the leak is serious enough.

[greybuscat]

Post-ships and under shouldn't be able to damage a 1st-rate with anything but their bow, and even then the smaller ship should be completely destroyed in the process, since only a high-speed collision would result in damage to the line ship. Given how fragile we all already are to concentrated cannon fire, I don't see why ram damage has to be extreme and arbitrary. Just extreme will do.

[Hethwill]

Post-ships and under shouldn't be able to damage a 1st-rate with anything but their bow, and even then the smaller ship should be completely destroyed in the process, since only a high-speed collision would result in damage to the line ship. Given how fragile we all already are to concentrated cannon fire, I don't see why ram damage has to be extreme and arbitrary. Just extreme will do.

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Yankee jack]

Greetings,

Captain  Henry d'Esterre Darby got it right.  Most (if not all) the ramming ships masts would go.  "Rolling the masts out" in a storm was common in those days.  (No wire cable and all that good stuff we have today.  Just old fiber line, probably half rotted from wear and months of exposure?).    

 

On the other hand,  If a little guy rams you, "Away boarders!"   An SOL has 800 to 1000 men.  Little guys have what?- 120?   Then re-board your own ship.  When the developers get to it, you might just have won a valuable "prize".

 

Aye,