maturin Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 This game doesn't even have any real ways to get lost as long as you plan your course well before you set off. There are no ocean currents that carry you sideways without you noticing, so you can't just miss the island you were shooting for completely if you started your journey going in the right direction. There are also no imperfect maps with serious scale distortions, which were a huge problem back in the day. I'm really confused. These are all arguments for keeping navigation as-is. Any additional aids just make it even easier. It's literally just being inconvenient for inconveniences sake. There is no serious gameplay challenge in figuring out where you are unless you play black out drunk and log off in the middle of the ocean, so why make it so complicated? It's blindingly simple right now. You are the one asking to complicate things with dynamic UI and minigames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetrion Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) "It's easy, so it should at least be inconvenient" is all I'm hearing. Either make it actually hard and have a real simulation of navigation to go with it, or leave it easy and ditch the pretense of difficulty that is really just inconvenience. Edited February 5, 2016 by Aetrion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 It's not always easy, but it is doable. It is gameplay, and OW trips would be even more dull and lifeless without it. If you didn't listen to the devs when they explained their reasoning in the gaming press, then I'm certainly not going to waste my breath repeating it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetrion Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I'm not obligated to agree with the developers. What we currently have just doesn't come off like an interesting and well thought out gameplay system, it just seems lazy. Hit F11 and go to a website != great gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bach Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) I'm not obligated to agree with the developers. What we currently have just doesn't come off like an interesting and well thought out gameplay system, it just seems lazy. Hit F11 and go to a website != great gameplay. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to play it. Many of us like it as is. Whether it's 100% realistic, to easy, to hard etc... It doesn't matter. It is a parameter of the game. Your role is to play it not design it. If you don't want to play it go play something you like. I'm under no obligation to play this game is some manner that you personally like better than I or hasn't been offered by the design team. So as you say to me, get off it your being silly. See you in the open sea, if you can find me with it being as easy as you say. Edited February 5, 2016 by Bach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral 8Q Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 There is no serious gameplay challenge in figuring out where you are unless you play black out drunk and log off in the middle of the ocean, so why make it so complicated? Heh heh hahaha! That cracked me up laughing! Nearly fell out of my chair! Sorry man, it seems unless you get blacked out drunk like you say, you will most likely never enjoy this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundal Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 My clan mate gets lost all the time and rages in channel. We troll and laugh at him all the time while he is sailing in circles or misses his mark. Making so that he does not get lost sailing between 2 islands will remove my fun at laughing at him:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Merrill Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Its always amazing to me to see how many people need instant gratification. Here's a tip... Do some research, check the online maps, take some handwritten logs so that you can get an estimate of travel times/speeds etc,.... This game is NOT designed to be a "race from battle to battle"-type thing. Come up with a strategy, make some alliances, take part in helping your faction. If you want no-stop battle, join pirates and stay in the Bahamas, where you wont get lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainCaveMan Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Its always amazing to me to see how many people need instant gratification. Here's a tip... Do some research, check the online maps, take some handwritten logs so that you can get an estimate of travel times/speeds etc,.... This game is NOT designed to be a "race from battle to battle"-type thing. Come up with a strategy, make some alliances, take part in helping your faction. If you want no-stop battle, join pirates and stay in the Bahamas, where you wont get lost. I agree...if you want instant gratification go to World of Warships or something like that. I have only been playing for a very short time but have found that navigation is a skill that is easily mastered. It may require a little innovation like creating an overlay (of a compass) that you can put over your screen and you can see the course that you have to chart...it can be that simple. But to add GPS or markers on the map...not realistic and would significantly reduce the skills that make this game enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Richard Bolitho Posted February 6, 2016 Author Share Posted February 6, 2016 Whilst I am now enjoying the navigation system (still getting lost sometimes LOL) I am perplexed that nearly all of the "no aid" lobby have totally disregarded the main point I made when I created this thread. An OPTION, don't want it, don't use it. This continued tennis match is nonsense. If you CHOOSE don't check a box and go to whatever site you want to find when you are. Don't shut other players from what they would like when it wont effect you at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bach Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Whilst I am now enjoying the navigation system (still getting lost sometimes LOL) I am perplexed that nearly all of the "no aid" lobby have totally disregarded the main point I made when I created this thread. An OPTION, don't want it, don't use it. This continued tennis match is nonsense. If you CHOOSE don't check a box and go to whatever site you want to find when you are. Don't shut other players from what they would like when it wont effect you at all! I had listed several ways that having an "option" does in fact effect and harm others game play. An option isn't necessary and it greatly decreases the potential for safer open ocean cargo runs in a game that has NO safe zone and every player can attack. Deep ocean is the safest place for bulk hauling right now. You option proposal will revoke that game aspect as anyone that can push that option button will be able to tell if they are sitting in an open ocean shipping lane or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion74 Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Well, I found the map a bit less than stellar but I figured out how to get around. To be honest, I expected to see a position marker on the map and was a bit put off at first so I can see where Bolitho is coming from, but I like the "guessing" aspect a whole lot too. I really have to try the F11 thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macjimm Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Stating that adding a positional reference will not effect those who don't use it, doesn't make it true. Some mechanics simplify the game so drastically that it changes the whole style or flavour of gameplay. Current navigation is easy enough and adding an optional "I'm here circle" on the map would push us from mildly realistic to arcade. People are opposed to it because they enjoy the current game with some skill needed for navigation. Those who choose to exersize a little bit of plotting would be handicapped against the arcade players if the system was changed. Many would be forced to use the magic circles to stay competitive or perhaps go PvE. Some of us could continue to manually pathfind but if it was optional it would separate the two camps and reduce cooperation opportunities. The current navigation is not hard core or realistic but it enhances the game by rewarding those who make the wee bit of effort. It adds another dimension of skill to the game. The handicap is a choice by those who wish to not develop their ability. Having positional reference in the form of a circle on the map would effect all players, even those who choose to toggle it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Merrill Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Here's a hint everyone..... Check out the maps section in the forums here.... aids as far as you can see!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghroznak Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I love how people were first opposed to navigational aid in the game because it wouldnt be realistic to have accurate positioning. Then when we drag facts out about availability of sextants and chronometers given the era we play in based on the available ships, ergo the realistic and historically correct method of finding an approximate location on a map is therefore available to us, suddenly a map / location indication is a matter of oversimplifying the game. There is a reason why sextants and chronometers were invented... to avoid being forced to sail close to land at all times to know where you are, like an old Trireme from before Jesus was born. Sticking to 2500 year old navigation methods in a game set in late 18th century, or even early 19th century given that Constitution was launched in 1797, makes zero sense. Remove F11 gps coordinates. Implement navigation as a crew based skill for ship. Implement ingame map with tools to plot a course between two points, eg like Silent Hunter games. If you like things to be inconvenient and unrealistic, ie not having sextant or chronometers, you can also try sailing with the monitor turned off to simulate night time. Rest of us would like to sail in an age of sails game with the navigational tools of that period of time available to us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) I love how people were first opposed to navigational aid in the game because it wouldnt be realistic to have accurate positioning. I can only speak for myself here, but I never was against navigational aid, I was against magic markers(™) and speaking out for anything authentic/realistic. However, you simply ignore that we do not have any of these tools or functions, so when some people indeed ask for magic markers, naturally some get suspicious and afraid that this title - like so many others - will be a victim of impatient or lazy players, so dumbed down in the end. That is not so irrational and certainly not as funny as you imply, is it? If the devs shape that feature up as discussed, for example by introducing this as an officer skill etc, limited to daylight and clear skies, then we can safely justify navigational aid, based on historical context. So please, don't twist things up or make those who are careful look like idiots, most of them certainly meant well. I know I did. Edited February 8, 2016 by Aubrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I love how people were first opposed to navigational aid in the game because it wouldnt be realistic to have accurate positioning. Then when we drag facts out about availability of sextants and chronometers given the era we play in based on the available ships, ergo the realistic and historically correct method of finding an approximate location on a map is therefore available to us, suddenly a map / location indication is a matter of oversimplifying the game. There is a reason why sextants and chronometers were invented... to avoid being forced to sail close to land at all times to know where you are, like an old Trireme from before Jesus was born. Sticking to 2500 year old navigation methods in a game set in late 18th century, or even early 19th century given that Constitution was launched in 1797, makes zero sense. Remove F11 gps coordinates. Implement navigation as a crew based skill for ship. Implement ingame map with tools to plot a course between two points, eg like Silent Hunter games. If you like things to be inconvenient and unrealistic, ie not having sextant or chronometers, you can also try sailing with the monitor turned off to simulate night time. Rest of us would like to sail in an age of sails game with the navigational tools of that period of time available to us. Do you autoaim your guns? No? So navigation shouldn't be autoaimed either. Since we are more than the captain, i.e. we are also the gunners, and the helmsman, and navigator, we should also have to figure out where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Do you autoaim your guns? No? So navigation shouldn't be autoaimed either. Since we are more than the captain, i.e. we are also the gunners, and the helmsman, and navigator, we should also have to figure out where we are. We are for now, because active development. However, this may change and I hope you won't dismiss his very good point that, during that time, navigation was way beyond aiming for a compass bearing after visually checking where you are. The debate is not so much if there should be navigational aid - it is more how it should look like. Some asked for magic markers - which I would hate - some however, delivered good ideas that would only make this aspect more authentic and engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghroznak Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 If the devs shape that feature up as discussed, for example by introducing this as an officer skill etc, limited to daylight and clear skies, then we can safely justify navigational aid, based on historical context. So please, don't twist things up or make those who are careful look like idiots, most of them certainly meant well. I know I did. This is exactly what I am proposing. Officer skill impacts the accuracy when trying to find your location. The location is never pinpoint accurate, it is always an inaccuracy, but gives you a broad idea of where you are located. Easiest way to represent this in the game is to give you a circle on the map, similar to the one you see when docked and using map. Weather impacts this as well. Overcast, rain, storms etc completely negate ability to find your location as you can't see the sun, moon or stars/constellations. Furthermore, quality of tools can be added as well as upgrade slots. Having an old, crappy chronometer is going to screw your accuracy on the longitude, ergo it might make your location circle elliptical and stretched out in the east/west direction as a result. I don't want a magical GPS which gives you the exact position down to 1 meter accuracy and constantly updates your location as you are sailing. But, I don't want the game to completely ignore the fact that navigational aids existed in the age of sails, and while they relied on weather conditions and weren't the most accurate tools, they were also not entirely non-existent to the point where captains had to rely on visual contact with land to know their locations. I strongly feel it would be an oversight to not implement navigational aids in some form in the game... as mentioned... not completely accurate, and relying on weather and crew / officer skill. Do you autoaim your guns? No? So navigation shouldn't be autoaimed either. Since we are more than the captain, i.e. we are also the gunners, and the helmsman, and navigator, we should also have to figure out where we are. No, we do not auto-aim our guns. Auto-aiming navigation and sailing would be to add an autopilot feature. We are not asking for that. Nowhere close to it. And being the navigator on the ship, then give us the ability to use sextant and chronometers, which are the tools available to a navigator just as the cannon is the tool of the gunner and the helm is the tool of the helmsman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 This is exactly what I am proposing. [...] I don't want a magical GPS which gives you the exact position down to 1 meter accuracy and constantly updates your location as you are sailing. But, I don't want the game to completely ignore the fact that navigational aids existed in the age of sails, and while they relied on weather conditions and weren't the most accurate tools, they were also not entirely non-existent to the point where captains had to rely on visual contact with land to know their locations. I strongly feel it would be an oversight to not implement navigational aids in some form in the game... as mentioned... not completely accurate, and relying on weather and crew / officer skill. I know, I used your example and I agree with what you propose very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bach Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) I don't think there is much worth in programming an officer skill to do this. Right now the game is new and players are first time experiencing this with no tutorials or help from other players. With in two weeks time most players would figure out OS nav on their own, find out how from other players or the web with have a guide tutorial for doing it. Making the programming somewhat if a waste if time. I'm not a realism stickler. I don't think the sky needs accurate star constellation and I don't think we need to know how to operate a sextant. Players needing to input some of their own brain power into navigation adds an extra dimension to game play and that's a good thing. It creates differences between players beyond just gear and level. Even if two players interpret the F11 data they won't necessarily find the exact same vector for OS travel. This will randomize the potential of OS ship meetings. I hope they never put in a "you are here" button into the game. It would remove an aspect of the game while adding next to nothing. It would just create dumbed down push button trade route finding. ***Just for you realism sticklers and guys that like to support forum arguments with dictionary references: Did they have sextants on the time period if move NA ships? Yes, does that mean every single ship captain had and could use them? No. Coastal shipping didn't require high paid navigators. Pirating which normally preyed if such shipping didn't need them either. Captain kid was a British officer and had such skills. To be fair, almost every ship in NA mocking a national warship would gave these skills on board. Pirates and small trading ships not so much. Could two guys using sextants arrive at the exact same point in the middle of the Carribean in sight of each other's sails? Probably not unless each was exceptional at it and the calibrations of all equipment and data matched exactly. But two guys with magic "you are here" buttons can do it every time. Edited February 8, 2016 by Bach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haddock Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 The navigator at that time did not havbe GPS, that is correct. But they dident have just a map either. They had tools for this, rulers, caliper etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 The navigator at that time did not havbe GPS, that is correct. But they dident have just a map either. They had tools for this, rulers, caliper etc... Yeah well, we came to this conclusions on page 1 or 2... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Eagle Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) Next people will want the ability to set a course and have auto pilot take them there while they watch a tv and do something else. Edited February 8, 2016 by dirtydiggler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylven1 Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 Next people will want the ability to set a course and have auto pilot take them there while they watch a tv and do something else. LoL that's exactly what people do right now when sailing across the open sea by dead reckoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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