Independent Players?

[Magnum]

Henry, I agree it is important to be a pretty good individual player - but, as my Tae Kwon Do instructor once pointed out "no matter how proficient you get, there will always be someone more proficient" (he had never met Chuck Norris )

 

I really don't want to see this game become "team king of the hill" - since I want to enjoy the beauty of it from time to time - I do understand the need for "battle" since it was a tumultuous time - I just am bored with battle battle battle and I just want to sail around for awhile.

 

Interesting perspective Raatha ....

[StuffinBeard]

I would say that the hierarchy of the game is one of the best parts... Pick a Nation and your automatically part of a greater force with many allies.

 

If you find yourself hanging out with a few select players maybe you join the guild they are in hopefully full of like minded people or you band together and start your own "guild" (not sure what they will be called here)

 

Next thing you know your the leader and are recruiting players so you can take your own port!!

 

Or maybe your just running rum under the noses of nearby enemy factions.

 

Or your just out tacking for the hell of it.. find yourself being chased by bad guys and before you know it your nation swoops in and saves your behind!!

 

All kinds of fun to be had in my mind. btw I too usually try to play small as I also have a job and family but I gotsta have me some entertainment once in a while... sometimes more than some

[Guest raat]

Interesting perspective Raatha ....

 

Can you tell I'm not the type of guy that likes giving out participation trophies? 

[Flip]

The best part of this thread is no one knows exactly how the open world will function, but talk like they do.

[StuffinBeard]

I understand your paternalistic concern for new players, but I fail to see why this is something we need to worry about.

 

This is a game built on warfare, based on an age of relative lawlessness (at sea at least), driven by free market capitalism and colonization, and rooted in the principals of survival of the fittest.  It may be a game, but it's meant to reflect the historical attitudes of the era.

 

So....why should we care if a lone ship captain who decides that he/she doesn't ever want to interact with other players in an Open World environment gets overwhelmed by stronger, larger navies?

 

Isn't that the definition of survival of the fittest?

 

There'll be a place for anyone to play the game anyway they want.  No one should ever be told they have to do this or that concerning a game (including joining a clan or not joining a clan).  However, I would also say we don't need to babysit new players and make sure everyone can "win".  Going it alone should be difficult as it would've been in the era. 

 

If people do want to go it alone, then I would say to them, don't have too high of expectations because, just like IRL, a game is more difficult without any help. 

I agree

 

I also understand his point I think. Some MMOs in the past have made it pretty much mandatory to play in a group to do anything in the game. While others like Guild Wars 2 made groups almost unnecessary. You see a big battle and you just run up and now your part of the battle group. I kind of see this game headed somewhere in the middle which I think is great! always part of a bigger group and able to group with others and also can join a large fleet battle if in the right place at the right time (I hope, kind of guessing on how groups will form) 

 

Anyway people shouldn't feel obligated to do anything they are not comfortable with just understand that there is safety in numbers and usually greater booty.. 8)

[Elysion]

One thing ill mention is that theres no reason to restrict people to only joining one organized group of players. It could be more like the linkshell system in ff11, where you can join as many as you want. This would move it to more of an organizational tool as well. Some groups would function more like traditional guilds, whereas others may be faction-wide useful societies such as a general trade association. People who make their 'home base' in a certain area may temporarily join some groups who focus on that area as an example, there could be multiple such groups for different purposes. One could be for people interested in the economics of the area, another for people whove 'signed up' to defend the area and want to keep abreast of any martial goings on.

 

If you are a member of some sort of exploration guild or something, your main 'job' in the game being that sort of activity, i dont see a reason why you cant also be a member of a society with interest in improving the general well being of a specific port or town you happen to like, as an example. And maybe you are also a member of a very exclusive and secretive group on top of that with nebulous and far reaching goals.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Elysion

[Joe]

I would imagine that solo/independent gamers are far more numerous than most would imagine. I don't see that changing in this game, belonging to a nation will provide you a base of support and anything after that will be left up to you.

Lots of gamers are now my age with family's and RL going on and we don't have time to be really active in a guild so we stay solo. I think that's something many gamers don't understand and many games get wrong. Solo players see a game quite different than those who must belong to and be super active in a society. How many games deal with solo gamers can decide the fate of the game so I would imagine that NA will make solo gaming just as fun and do-able as a good game does.

[Magnum]

Can you tell I'm not the type of guy that likes giving out participation trophies? 

 

I understand your perspective on that. I just don't want one player's ability to manipulate his little collection of pixels "slightly" better or faster than another player does his to be the DEFINITION of this game. I don't want a combat only game, I also think there are plenty others who don't think "survival of the fittest pixels" is the underlying guiding principle we need to nurture.

 

In real life of the 1780's to 1810's there was plenty of law on the high seas, that is the reason pirates were a dying (literally) breed.

 

It's just that the law of one nation was sometimes at war with the law of another.

Edited March 18, 2015 by ampaholic

[Grim DeGrim]

I follow you.  It's an MMO, that's about social interaction.  It is more than combat. 

 

There are:

• missions (assumed there will be, threw that in for flip),
• NPC killing (assumed),
• crafting (assumed), and
• exploration (assumed). 

Some are "NPC combat", but I think that's different from what you meant.  But the beauty of an open sandbox MMO is that moving the pixels "slightly faster" can be someone's definition of the game.  Kinda the intention of a sandbox...people can define their own gameplay.  Lucky for you, the choice is yours.

 

I picked up on these quotes earlier:

 

 

...I really don't want to see this game become "team king of the hill"...

----

..."survival of the fittest pixels"...

 

If you're not into PVP or RVR (again, thx Flip...we "assume" these will be game elements), this will be a non-issue.  However, if you delve into these activities, then you essentially delve into the king of the hill world where survival of the fittest is at the heart.  It is a rare player type that enters into these activities saying "I'm not going to try and win".  If there is intention to win, then no matter how much they say "It is just for enjoyment", they have prescribed to trying to be better than their opponent (eg, win the fight).

[ThePandanator2]

I don't see very much an issue. As mentioned, the individual players will most likely far outweigh the associated players. 

 

I do believe that there will be the unfortunate circumstance when an individual player may find himself in the depths of a guild group of an opposing nation, and proceeds to be sunk. This is just bad luck though, and more than likely, will be a rare experience. It will happen, and the player will likely get over it. 

 

To bring another aspect into this many-sided discussion, I seem to recall that there was a discussion somewhere that a trader or explorer or something else non-military could recruit a military vessel to escort him/her. Perhaps guilds and clans could play into this?

[Grim DeGrim]

...the individual players will most likely far outweigh the associated players....

 

...I do believe that there will be the unfortunate circumstance when an individual player may find himself in the depths of a guild group of an opposing nation, and proceeds to be sunk. This is just bad luck though, and more than likely, will be a rare experience. It will happen, and the player will likely get over it....

 

We'll need to wait until go live and full release I suppose.  But I'll go out on a limb that associated and solo will be on near equal split, and that the sinking of non-affiliated will be very common (unless they have large protected, non-combat zones akin to "high-sec" in EVE Online...assuming...need that caveat for Flip!).

[William the Drake]

When it comes to MMOs the best way to see it is as such: as an independent, you will have access to all the games aspects. As a member of a group (society/guild/etc.) you have easier access to these same aspects.

 

Unfortunately, the only scenario I can compare this to is my Personal PotBS story: I was that "lone wolf". PotBS was my first ever MMO, and i was reasonably skeptical to join anyone who shot me a soc. invite at random (i.e. your influence farming zerg soc.s). But one guy game along, asked me to join his group. He had a cool name, so I joined. After a few months of whole-hearted dedication to the society, helping members whenever I could, and even donating mass amounts of money to the society, the leader makes off with everything. It is safe to say I was disheartened. About two years pass with me society-less. During that time I remember trying out some group and epic missions. I would ask around if anyone was running them and tag along. Stayed out of societies. Even PvPed a little at a quasi-organized level with a few mates. Stayed out of societies. Attended my first PB (boy oh boy was that an interesting event). No Society.

 

In short I could do pretty much anything that someone in a society could do. However, I found a society that looked pretty good. Did my research and had a lengthy convo with one of the leaders. An hour after deliberations, and I signed on. Almost immediately the rate at which I had been active an any of the above activities multiplied. Group missions, epic missions, PvP and RvR were all now easily accessible comparatively to when I was running on my own (and success rates were on the rise as well.)

 

About a year in, hard work, dedications, and just a splash of rum saw myself rise through the ranks and place myself as one of the leaders of the society, and would be one of the many proud society members to lead the first Pirate victory in over two years (on the Roberts server).

 

TL;DR: Being in without a society for sure does not hurt. But being in (a good) one certainly can help.

 

Lastly, on the concern of the mod/leader aspect, it actually comes hand in hand if you think about it: Many of the aspects of keeping a society in order and running smoothly lend to being a moderator (and vice versa). As a leader you have to keep things ship-shape within the society and among members. You have to not only settle disputes, but do so with tact so as not to insult or wrong any valued members. You also need to be active, and to appear approachable at the same time for those who seek help. It's only natural that those folks who have those skills be sought for moderating many of the same people they already are.

 

Just my two cents. 

Cheers

William Drummond, the Drake

[Flip]

I follow you.  It's an MMO, that's about social interaction.  It is more than combat. 

 

There are:

• missions (assumed there will be, threw that in for flip),
• NPC killing (assumed),
• crafting (assumed), and
• exploration (assumed). 

Some are "NPC combat", but I think that's different from what you meant.  But the beauty of an open sandbox MMO is that moving the pixels "slightly faster" can be someone's definition of the game.  Kinda the intention of a sandbox...people can define their own gameplay.  Lucky for you, the choice is yours.

 

I picked up on these quotes earlier:

 

 

If you're not into PVP or RVR (again, thx Flip...we "assume" these will be game elements), this will be a non-issue.  However, if you delve into these activities, then you essentially delve into the king of the hill world where survival of the fittest is at the heart.  It is a rare player type that enters into these activities saying "I'm not going to try and win".  If there is intention to win, then no matter how much they say "It is just for enjoyment", they have prescribed to trying to be better than their opponent (eg, win the fight).

 

Nah bro, its a squad based age of sail shooter now, haven't you heard?

 

They don't have plans to share with us about the open world systems because.. well... they literally don't have any (see quote below). Whether its to keep the hype trains and imagined visions of the game (as can be seen in this thread) unshattered so as to keep the forums a ever loving circle yank of already sold fans who see no evil, hear no evil, etc or if it is just a snide remark meant to chastise, which makes no sense when considering that divulging their plans, if the plans are good and well fleshed out and hence fulfilling the hype and dreamed up systems on these forums, would only serve to increase hype and sales. Wouldn't one want to divulge all the juicy details and confirm what people have been asking/hoping/having wet dreams over? Yea? Unless of course those things aren't in the plans, in which case saying no, no, no to all the ideas suddenly doesn't look so good.

 

Hence my saltiness on these forums of late.

 

Expect the worst. That's why we don't lay plans.

Well combat is already fun. We just need to add groups, officers, fires, upgrades, commander tablet, 15 more ships and the best squad based age of sail combat game is ready.

 

 

Best and only, a dubious distinction is it not? Not to mention the player retention is about zilch.

 

And yes Henry, it is following this threads path of discussion so don't hide it.

[Magnum]

I follow you.  It's an MMO, that's about social interaction.  It is more than combat. 

 

There are:

• missions (assumed there will be, threw that in for flip),
• NPC killing (assumed),
• crafting (assumed), and
• exploration (assumed). 

Some are "NPC combat", but I think that's different from what you meant.  But the beauty of an open sandbox MMO is that moving the pixels "slightly faster" can be someone's definition of the game.  Kinda the intention of a sandbox...people can define their own gameplay.  Lucky for you, the choice is yours.

 

I picked up on these quotes earlier:

 

 

If you're not into PVP or RVR (again, thx Flip...we "assume" these will be game elements), this will be a non-issue.  However, if you delve into these activities, then you essentially delve into the king of the hill world where survival of the fittest is at the heart.  It is a rare player type that enters into these activities saying "I'm not going to try and win".  If there is intention to win, then no matter how much they say "It is just for enjoyment", they have prescribed to trying to be better than their opponent (eg, win the fight).

 

Oh, I'm as much into "winning" as most anyone - I just remember from dozens of Tae Kwon Do "events" and such that the most important part to me was the camaraderie with the other participants with the "competition" pretty much secondary. Since of course someone had to be the best, there was an award for being the most improved over the last event, but no real winner since we were all students.

 

We could beat the crap out of each other for 3 hours and still be the best of buds after, I understand that is real common in the art. I hope there is some of that in the open world game - I am concerned that some players hyper-competitiveness might make that idea hard.

 

I think of the many reasons people choose to join Gilds/Clans/Swarms/Gangs (whatever you call them) one is to draft on the killer instinct of others. I am heartened a bit by some of the independents here saying they think it can work to use their own killer instinct -

[Elysion]

and that the sinking of non-affiliated will be very common (unless they have large protected, non-combat zones akin to "high-sec" in EVE Online...assuming...need that caveat for Flip!).

Only if they design the game to allow that sort of thing.

 

See, everyone, except pirates, are affiliated with someone. The ship is registered to some nation or another and flying that flag. Attacking someone you are not at war with would, and should, have repercussions because its essentially acting on behalf of that flag, and if you are off causing trouble or making enemies then you could well get kicked out (and essentially be forced to run off as everyone attempts to hunt you down)

 

I cant see a game in this setting having a system like EVE does, or rather the alliances are the nations, and player associations are individual corporations within them, and the alliances are either on friendly/neutral/enemy terms with each other, but attacking a neutral would be provoking a war and as such will see the attacker punished for it by their own faction.

 

Because thats all that makes sense in the setting.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Elysion

[Guest raat]

Oh, I'm as much into "winning" as most anyone - I just remember from dozens of Tae Kwon Do "events" and such that the most important part to me was the camaraderie with the other participants with the "competition" pretty much secondary. Since of course someone had to be the best, there was an award for being the most improved over the last event, but no real winner since we were all students.

 

We could beat the crap out of each other for 3 hours and still be the best of buds after, I understand that is real common in the art. I hope there is some of that in the open world game - I am concerned that some players hyper-competitiveness might make that idea hard.

 

I think of the many reasons people choose to join Gilds/Clans/Swarms/Gangs (whatever you call them) one is to draft on the killer instinct of others. I am heartened a bit by some of the independents here saying they think it can work to use their own killer instinct -

 

Respectfully, I think if you listened (re-read in this case) to what you're saying you'll understand that your point of view is entirely subjective and completely within your control to achieve.

 

1) If you don't care about winning battles and just want to have fun, then don't care about losing to larger, more organized clans and have fun.

 

2) If you do care about winning battles and don't want to lose an engagement but want to be more casual about it, then be more casual about it.  Find a casual clan or make your own.

 

3) If you do care about winning battles and want to be more hardcore, but want to be your own boss, then be your own boss and go solo or start your own clan.

 

4) If you don't want to fight battles, then don't fight battles and do trading.  Try to flee when people want to engage you.

 

Etc., Etc.

 

That is completely within your own power and everyone else's.  They, as well as you, can decide that themselves.

 

Furthermore, some people enjoy the competitive environment of PvP and get enjoyment from winning battles.  Others don't like PvP, they get enjoyment from completing missions in MMOs.  That's fine.  Everyone should do what they like to have fun.

 

To the point, winning, losing, fun...are all subjective.  People will make their own decisions on how to play this game.  We don't need to "look out for them."  There's plenty of camaraderie to be had no matter how you want to play this game.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Raatha

[EDMorel]

It's very early days, as others have said as more join the 'independent' players will most likely outweigh the guilds/clans/societies.

I tend to be one of those when it comes to MMO's and I never really feel my gaming enjoyment or experience detracts by not joining one. Thats not to say I haven't been part of any guilds or fleet actions before, I can follow garbled team speak as good as the rest of them but my enjoyment mainly comes from the 'journey' and being in an active world, rather than being the best or the drama that comes with it. Ganking will be an issue in any game with large groups of organized members, but it generally doesn't put up a real block on actually playing. When being unaffiliated with a faction it comes with the territory, you just get wise to where to go and when to do it. I played UWO since the beginning as a merchant (Probably will spend majority of my time as one in NA if thats possible) and Potbs on and off, I never had the heart for endless grind pvp, but I always did my duty if called upon and had fun doing so even as a non guildie. 

 

Also dislike the term 'lone wolf' as they tend not to interact with anybody.

[Grim DeGrim]

This thread is turning out to be gold.  I didn't expect such good dialogue:

 

 

Expect the worst. That's why we don't lay plans.

Well combat is already fun. We just need to add groups, officers, fires, upgrades, commander tablet, 15 more ships and the best squad based age of sail combat game is ready.

 

 

This is an interesting quote Flip.  You're right, maybe I "See no Evil, Hear no Evil...". 

 

I see a response that says "We're not laying the pieces out for you...it is enough for you to know there is combat, ships, groups, yadda-yadda-yadda".  Versus "We got no plan!".  Take into context that it was a somewhat salty response back to some demanding requests on your part (yes, I actually went back to see the "what" they were responding to...who wouldn't respond with a sarcastic remark).

 

 

 

See, everyone, except pirates, are affiliated with someone.

 

Elysion, you perspectives are very interesting.  I would have suggested the exact opposite!  Pirates, from my experience, are among the MOST affiliated.  But this is coming from prior gameplay...and maybe this game will be different (Flip is correct in that we do make ALOT of assumptions). 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Flip]

 

This is an interesting quote Flip.  You're right, maybe I "See no Evil, Hear no Evil...". 

 

I see a response that says "We're not laying the pieces out for you...it is enough for you to know there is combat, ships, groups, yadda-yadda-yadda".  Versus "We got no plan!".  Take into context that it was a somewhat salty response back to some demanding requests on your part (yes, I actually went back to see the "what" they were responding to...who wouldn't respond with a sarcastic remark).

 

 

What game in this day and age doesn't tell you what the features are.

[ObiQuiet]

What game in this day and age doesn't tell you what the features are.

A game that's in alpha, where the designers want to stay true to the era, but need to experiment to find out what mechanisms will work, not work, be fun and be not-fun in a world where players with free will interact?

Edit: never mind, I see that was discussed in the "instances" thread a few weeks ago.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Lt. Obiquiet

[Grim DeGrim]

What game in this day and age doesn't tell you what the features are.

 

 

Combat and gunnery

Realistic ballistics and cannon performance of the period. Every cannonball is tracked in the air and after it hits the target. One shot can hit the stern, damage the rudder, then hit the cannon carriage, injure crew, ricochet from the floor and hit the opposite side. Listing and wind affects the shooting distance and will require change of tactics. 

Weapons: All major types of naval artillery are implemented: from long guns to carronades, and mortars (of course limited by the ship role and its hull). Fort and land batteries will provide support during port battles. Fire ships and branders will also be present in the game. 

 

Sailing

Advanced wind and physics model provides for realistic portrayal of ship’s performance in the age of sail. Yard angles, ship angle to wind, cargo, fittings and ship condition affects speeds and turning rates. Correct tacking, boxhauling, clubhauling and other elements of the age of sail sailing are possible. Hidden ship characteristics will allow to gradually uncover potential of the vessel – every ship in game will be unique. 

Damage model: Leaks, splinters, loose cannons, demasting, raking, fires and all other hazards possible in that era. Damaged ship fittings and modules will change behavior of the ship.

 

Open world prototype

We are continuing development of the open world prototype.

Naval Action will feature one of the largest sandbox maps in history of age of sail games. You will be able to write your own story by building the trading or military empires for their nations or guilds. Because game will not have levels or classes you will have full control over your fate and character development.

 

Current ship line-up

Naval Action will feature accurate hull models, sail plans, guns, internal modules and parts, historical speed, turning and heel performance. Ships from trading ships and smugglers to small gunboats to large 100+ gun first rates will allow the player to experience every possible role of the Age of Sail period. 

5 more models are in development including 140 gun Santisima Trinidad. [Dated]

 

-----

And then the Blog

-----

 

[January 20, 2015]

 

Hello Captains.

Here are our development plans for this winter and spring: Jan-May 2015. 

1. New ship models

The following list of vessels will be delivered for testing by the end of Spring. Some ships might get delayed by storms.

• Mercury brig
• La belle poule
• Ingermanland
• La Renomme
• Privateer Schooner (based on Lynx - with more guns)
• Brig Navy Edition (based on Brig - with more guns)
• HMS Pickle
• 28 gun light frigate
• Gunboat

2. Open world distance and speeds testing

3. Ship customization

• Ship parameters randomization
• Simple ship upgrades
• Simple loot
• Simple crafting

4. Gameplay

• Updated damage model 4.0
• Improved sailing of for-and-aft rigs
• Better turning and rudder mechanics
• Commander tablet
• New game types: Operations gameplay – 24 hours large battle map with respawns, and shore defences

5. Other improvements

• Improved chat
• Manual
• Soft launch of early access on steam

With your pre-orders we are moving significantly faster. Thank you for the continued support and feedback you are providing us with. 

Special thanks to all community correspondents, streamers and youtube content makers, who are making awesome videos about our game.

 

[March 5, 2015] Photos of progress in open world...

 

 

----

 

Seems to be ample information out there.  I'm raze'n ya a bit.  To be honest, we're in the same boat:  Development can't be done soon enough.  And you've been waiting longer than I have...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Windy]

What he said...

 

 

 

 

 

[Charles Caldwell]

Oh, I'm as much into "winning" as most anyone - I just remember from dozens of Tae Kwon Do "events" and such that the most important part to me was the camaraderie with the other participants with the "competition" pretty much secondary. Since of course someone had to be the best, there was an award for being the most improved over the last event, but no real winner since we were all students.

 

We could beat the crap out of each other for 3 hours and still be the best of buds after, I understand that is real common in the art. I hope there is some of that in the open world game - I am concerned that some players hyper-competitiveness might make that idea hard.

 

I think of the many reasons people choose to join Gilds/Clans/Swarms/Gangs (whatever you call them) one is to draft on the killer instinct of others. I am heartened a bit by some of the independents here saying they think it can work to use their own killer instinct -

 

Sorry Im late to this discussion.... I kept getting that feeling someone was walking over my grave. lol

 

Amp you are a fellow martial artist 'slow bow'. I trained 15 years in Kick boxing until a nasty bout did for me (knee ligament damage). I'd also like to add, nothing that has gone before in anyway affects my respect for you or your ability as a player or person. Salute sir!

 

Now I dont want to rake over old coals, but I dont think you or any other independent player need worry or feel obliged to join a guild. I also dont think the 'open seas' will be awash with guilds and organised fleets. Yes of course will see them, but thankfully this game and genre very much allows for the lone player to thrive. We can already see that dueling is very effective, whether you are in a guild or not 1 on 1's is a great leveller. However this IS a naval combat game and at its essence, and despite possible objections, larger fleet engagements tend to lend themselves to organised fleets and ultimately guilds!

 

Now and this is purely my opinion... playing styles and players tend to get different things from different games. For me I enjoy being part of a team of like minded individuals. I like shared and sharing goals and that spirit of team play that guilds offer. On the flip side those players who enjoy the freedom of lone play will always have a place in games and as such guilds will always be outnumbered! Killer instincts are not only the domain of guilds, I think in this game the lone wolf will do more than hold their own in this world and should be feared!!!!

 

Fear not Amp, the world of NA is big enough for us all. We should also trust that the Dev's respect both sides of their client base, the silent masses of lone players and the noisy minority of guilds.

[Reki]

Good LFP system is what we need for casual play. I'm sure solo play will be option too, but remember that in open sea will be no place to safe looking for 1 vs 1. For this, i think, there will be session mode. I mean solo sailing could be dangerous, probably.

[admin]

Is this game only going to be "survivable" by either joining a guild/clan or by paying "protection" to a guild/clan?

While I can understand the immersion effect of being in the Royal Navy or the U.S. Navy, In reality I am a US Citizen and free to do as I like with my time.

I may not really want to play Admiral or be bossed around by someone wanting to play Admiral - do I have a choice in this game?

 

----

 

I guess what I am asking is have the guilds/clans ALREADY taken over the game being as most of them are run by Moderators?

I really wanted to just play a fun "age of sail" game and then go to dinner/live my life - do I really have to join a guild/clan just to play?

 

 

Would like to clarify that moderators are forum volunteers - there will be no privileges in the open sea. 

 

On your question

Good solo gameplay is the main focus of the game. Sheer size of the world underpins this vision. You will not be forced into a guild or a clan and we will provide enough tools to help you do your own thing. If you want to move up and participate in the conquest it will be your choice.. not design choice.