Patrol ROE

[staun]

1 hour ago, admin said:

So if players are only able to join the lowest BR - what are the chances they are not going to help their friends who are on the other side due to BR limits by blocking you? Or accidentally shooting you to slow you down? If they cannot enter (today's rule) what is the point of the lowest BR rule? its better to just limit the size of battles and get done with it. Solo patrol - you are on your own but cannot get ganked. Group patrol 6 players can join and that's it. Simple and easy to understand what you can face. 

 

I just think you should but the things in to the game as you think they should be. Players will never agree 100% anyway. Then we test it and you find out if it worked as you intended and had the effect on the game as you hoped.

[vazco]

1 hour ago, admin said:

So if players are only able to join the lowest BR - what are the chances they are not going to help their friends who are on the other side due to BR limits by blocking you? Or accidentally shooting you to slow you down? If they cannot enter (today's rule) what is the point of the lowest BR rule? its better to just limit the size of battles and get done with it. Solo patrol - you are on your own but cannot get ganked. Group patrol 6 players can join and that's it. Simple and easy to understand what you can face. 

 

Having a patrol zone with current RoE and 1v1 patrol zone won't fix the issue, just like equal BR limit won't fix the issue. A good compromise is BR limit on a level of 1.5 enemy's BR - just like community suggested multiple times before.

Below explanation why, in a form of Q&A

What's the goal of a current patrol zone?

In my understanding it's a place where you can easily find PvP while sailing either alone, or in a small group with your friends. A place where you can find engaging and fun battles - not necessarily exactly even.

What's the problem of a current patrol zone?

Battles stop being engaging and fun when a gank jumps into your battle, making it a pointless suicide event. We need a bit of a balance, where even if you get killed, at least you have some chance of fighting an enemy.

What's the problem of a strict even BR?

Players who are not pro won't show up, as they will always loose with better players. They need to have a chance to bring a bit more numbers. Even BR also generates a lot of waiting for many participants - it's hard to hit an even BR, someone will be always outside of the battle.

What's the goal of a 1v1 patrol zone?

It's a place where you can find a most even possible battle setup, similar to a tournament, similar to e-sport. It's not about just fun quick sailing, it's more about proving your skills. It's for most hardcore players.

Why 1.5 BR system is better than strict BR?

It generates much less waiting and allows for weaker players to call in some limited reinforcements to help, making patrol events much more accessible.

Why 1.5 BR is better than a current system?

It eliminates only ganks which make fights completely useless, in the same time not limiting other battles (provided 1.5 BR limit is not active with a tag).

[Angus MacDuff]

I was once in the shallow zone with 12 of my clan mates when we came across a 1v1 from 2 other nations.  The gank would have been ridiculous so we split in half and joined both sides.  It was probably one of the most fun battles I was involved in.  Reasonably even battles in patrol can be great.  I don't join battles on the high side and sometimes even sail past an even battle so as not to spoil their fun.  Lets get rid of the Ganking in Patrol, devs...

Edited December 3, 2018 by Angus MacDuff

[admin]

1 minute ago, Tiedemann said:

The sad fact in my experince most patrol fights ends up in ganks and it is very boring/sad. When you are in front of the choice of joining a 1 vs 9 battle, very very few will join the 1 player against the 9. I know I wold not, unless I'm in a shop-ship just there to get damage.. 

You can't solve it by agreement between players, so the only way is to bring the honorable battles by design.

Example: Frigate solo event
Allows only 5th rates - all battles start 1v1 and immediately close in the patrol area. Once player gets into the zone he can be sure that the only battle he can get is 1v1 eliminating all ganking options (if he is attacked by the 1st rate he can easily escape or maybe even sink the 1st rate 1v1). 

Because this is a localized event (only available in certain areas in certain days), it does not go against general sandbox nature, as the rest of the map values force and numbers; it gives solo player an option to do something without fear of losing the ship to ganks.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, admin said:

what are the chances they are not going to help their friends who are on the other side due to BR limits by blocking you? Or accidentally shooting you to slow you down?

Aaargh!

FF is "easy" because because you could have auto systems of various kinds to deal with that, well, if you want to. Blocking is more tricky, though. Maybe there would be an epidemic of groups griefing teammates to save their friends' bacon? I can be persuaded that people would do this in an attempt to avoid loss. But to get out they would have to sit out the timer and during that time others may come into the fight and make it very hard for the shenanigans to succeed.

Is it more frustrating to be blocked or otherwise hindered than to get ganked by late joiners? Maybe? I'm just scared we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because of (hopefully) occasional griefing incidents in patrol zones.

Would it hurt to test BR entry limits in current patrol zones? We could quickly get an idea of how bad the potential griefing could become. It is possible the positive effects of equal sides battles far outweigh the negative griefing potential.

[qw569😳]

55 minutes ago, vazco said:

What's the goal of a current patrol zone?

Earn doubloons.

56 minutes ago, vazco said:

What's the problem of a current patrol zone?

Battles stop being engaging and fun when a gank jumps into your battle, making it a pointless suicide event. We need a bit of a balance, where even if you get killed, at least you have some chance of fighting an enemy.

It's chance to make more damage and earn more doubloons.

[Tiedemann]

31 minutes ago, rediii said:

Why dont we just lower the max BR possible in the zones to fit smaller groups?

Imo: We need a more dynamic mechanic that can handle 1vs1 and up to 25vs25 players. When we start tailoring RvR and patrols for only handling low player numbers, the game loses it's ability to handle higher numbers. So if the game gets a high influx of players, it can not accommodate it.
Besides BR roof breathes meta fleets. Veterans sail out together, rookies go unaware alone. In the end veterans can't find good fights except when we actually arrange it our self or on rare occasions we get lucky. So we get bored and quit.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, admin said:

You can't solve it by agreement between players, so the only way is to bring the honorable battles by design.

Example: Frigate solo event
Allows only 5th rates - all battles start 1v1 and immediately close in the patrol area. Once player gets into the zone he can be sure that the only battle he can get is 1v1 eliminating all ganking options (if he is attacked by the 1st rate he can easily escape or maybe even sink the 1st rate 1v1). 

Because this is a localized event (only available in certain areas in certain days), it does not go against general sandbox nature, as the rest of the map values force and numbers; it gives solo player an option to do something without fear of losing the ship to ganks.

so 2 first rates from each different nation agrees to exploit your suggested system. They start the 1v1 at the border of the patrol zone. They do max damage in therms of armour, and sail damage with chain. Repairs rince and repeat.

My question is then, how can this be prohibited?

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Wyy said:

My question is then, how can this be prohibited?

Does it have to be?  There are always players who will find a way to exploit game mechanics.  Players already do this in the zones.  So what?  It doesn't hurt my game if they do.  Its a sad little exploit and sounds pretty boring.  There are plenty of more fun ways to acquire Doubloons.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Does it have to be?  There are always players who will find a way to exploit game mechanics.  Players already do this in the zones.  So what?  It doesn't hurt my game if they do.  Its a sad little exploit and sounds pretty boring.  There are plenty of more fun ways to acquire Doubloons.

When they know the battle is closed as soon as they tag each other they can do it in full safety, even carrying hundreds of repairs to do it several times, they would get doubloons at a MUCH faster rate. but if it stays open where there only can be 1.5x br advantage on one side, they wouldnt be able to do it in full safety

[Angus MacDuff]

Just now, Wyy said:

When they know the battle is closed as soon as they tag each other they can do it in full safety, even carrying hundreds of repairs to do it several times, they would get doubloons at a MUCH faster rate. but if it stays open where there only can be 1.5x br advantage on one side, they wouldnt be able to do it in full safety

What you're saying is true, but is it really worth worrying about?  So they sit stationary, 100yds apart and blaze away at each other for 1.5 hours.  Then they get doubloons.  What a boring way to do it!  I'd hate to see them in an actual battle if that is their practice.  I say if that's the worst exploit to happen in this case, don't worry about it.  The rest of us will have fun battles.

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Wyy said:

so 2 first rates from each different nation agrees to exploit your suggested system. They start the 1v1 at the border of the patrol zone. They do max damage in therms of armour, and sail damage with chain. Repairs rince and repeat.

My question is then, how can this be prohibited?

Limited br patrols will not be damage based and can be kill based. Then you won't be able to farm damage - and ships will actually have to sink to progress in the event. 2 players enter - 1 player leaves. 

[Sir Loorkon]

11 minutes ago, Wyy said:

When they know the battle is closed as soon as they tag each other they can do it in full safety, even carrying hundreds of repairs to do it several times, they would get doubloons at a MUCH faster rate. but if it stays open where there only can be 1.5x br advantage on one side, they wouldnt be able to do it in full safety

I do not like those exploits but I do not care to much. Those two players in your example do exploit themselves without knowing it. They waste time without the fun of a fight. They gain doubloons but they do not gain experience and they bore themselves to death. What will they do with those doubloons? Buy goldships to repeat the exploit and repeat and repeat? They will not be competitive in a real fight anyway. Those players are punished by themselves. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

Limited br patrols will not be damage based and can be kill based. Then you won't be able to farm damage - and ships will actually have to sink to progress in the event. 2 players enter - 1 player leaves. 

good  cant wait to test it  

[Anne Wildcat]

I just don’t like not being able to flee a gankfest fight. I like the open world ROE better. Although I haven’t been in a patrol zone, or even played much, in a while, so maybe it’s changed. 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Anne Wildcat said:

I just don’t like not being able to flee a gankfest fight. I like the open world ROE better. Although I haven’t been in a patrol zone, or even played much, in a while, so maybe it’s changed. 

There are options for leaving a Patrol fight now, but I forget what the prerequisites are.  I left a patrol fight the other day when I jumped into a 3v1 and realised that the 1 was dead and the 3 were about to have me all to their selves! I'm still traumatized...

[Tiedemann]

1 hour ago, admin said:

You can't solve it by agreement between players, so the only way is to bring the honorable battles by design.

Example: Frigate solo event

I think the Solo patrol is a great idea. It has my full support and I want it as soon as yesterday.

Still I strongly believe that a "sluice mechanic" for joining a battle - or player entry flow control if you prefer that name, would be brilliant in other patrol areas, to force players to join battles more evenly. It if it worked it would end the super ganks! Only real down side is that if your nation is represented on the high BR side, then your forced to wait out in OW until your nations side is open. Up side, prevents the need for BR limitations and did I mention -> it should kill of the joining winning side super gank into oblivion shit fest issue we currently have.  

[Tiedemann]

21 minutes ago, rediii said:

isnt that the same with playernumber limits?

I agree tho, adopt the old signaling in patrol zone and done. Groups have to stay together t ofight together and thats it.

Yes, but I believe that limit is related to hardware/game capability's.. If you remember the 25 vs 25 - 1. rate fights, they used to be a bit laggy in centre of the brawl

Edit: I think something mystical went terribly wrong with the old signaling perk, they removed it and we never head from it again. Back when it was released it was a tiny glimmering hope of getting more balanced fights in OW. Some how it failed, got removed and since then I had the impression our gods have been considering PvP <=> Ganking. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Tiedemann

[vazco]

1 hour ago, admin said:

to bring the honorable battles by design.

Example: Frigate solo event

Those are honourable battles, true. They are however also limited to people who are willing to do 1 vs 1. Not many people want to do this - I know, as I don't get many offers when I ask in global. Most rather prefer to test their chances in patrol zone, where eg. they can have Ram Dinark on their side. If Ram goes to 1 vs 1 zone, it will become mostly deserted.

Why shouldn't we test a 1.5 BR limit suggested by players? I imagine it's not that hard to code. It seems the most reasonable compromise between engaging, meaningful (my participation matters)  and fun battles (even if I'm not the best player, I can still have some chance to sink someone).

[vazco]

3 hours ago, rediii said:

Why dont we just lower the max BR possible in the zones to fit smaller groups?

With higher BR battles and sluice system with 1.5 BR limit (or differently adjusted), battles have a chance to grow and become epic in a controllable way.
Low BR just changes a bar - it would have to keep being readjusted with changing population, and even then it wouldn't be perfect. A group smaller than top BR will always have issues finding fun fights without getting ganked.

Edited December 3, 2018 by vazco

[staun]

2 hours ago, vazco said:

With higher BR battles and sluice system with 1.5 BR limit (or differently adjusted), battles have a chance to grow and become epic in a controllable way.
Low BR just changes a bar - it would have to keep being readjusted with changing population, and even then it wouldn't be perfect. A group smaller than top BR will always have issues finding fun fights without getting ganked.

But with a Br of 1,5 some one maybe have to sit over in a fight . 1,5 basicly makes this a duel game.

 

[staun]

9 minutes ago, rediii said:

stay together and tag together to get into the same fight, easy

But that does not remove the gank, witch is what ppl want with there demand on a 1,3-1,5 br limit. Unless the week side can get help, witch it also can now.

[jodgi]

This is so frustrating! If we can't have anti-gank measures for long timers and growing fights; I'd rather have normal ow RoE in normal patrol zones 

We haven't tried BR limits in the zones, it could turn out great with little block/FF griefing. 

I look forward to duel patrols, but I'm greedy and want guaranteed fun more than once a week.

[staun]

31 minutes ago, rediii said:

the problem everyone has is the gank AFTER 20 minutes of the battle.

People are fine with OW RoE

Not to sure abouth the OW. Think you can find plenty of post where the demand for a 1,5 br in OW. But thats not the issue we are talking abouth here.

In general I don’t care to much if it get one ore the other solution,  as long we dont end up where players basicly cant go out in a group and have fun.

[staun]

5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

This is so frustrating! If we can't have anti-gank measures for long timers and growing fights; I'd rather have normal ow RoE in normal patrol zones 

We haven't tried BR limits in the zones, it could turn out great with little block/FF griefing. 

I look forward to duel patrols, but I'm greedy and want guaranteed fun more than once a week.

I could have gotten it wrong. But as I have understand it, it will be every day and you can be in there all that you want. But only a limited.battles count for the Weekly contest.