Patch 14: Part 1 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[Malachy]

19 minutes ago, Liq said:

I was going like that for a minute at least

Also the tacking performance was ridiculously great, better than a surprise

Strange. The tacking is nice though

[Aquillas]

3 hours ago, admin said:

for the next step we will adapt the yard power for lineships using the following modifiers

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction
• Sail area - increases side force due to more power
• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)
• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

   

I can't wait (or at least can't wait quietly) for that!

I also think that the present turn rate of Ships of the Line in game is too high. There is no more room for agile frigates!

Also, but I think this yet in the process, the surface of the spanker is very important in the turn radius calculation. This particular sail was in fact an aerial rudder.

For the rest this is on the very right way imo, thanks! And with the coming BR rebalance, WoW!

For speed in the open world, this should be closer (but accelerated) to speeds in battle instances. Yesterday, a Surprise could run my trader Lynx up to tag them. Obviously, I outrun the Surprise in battle instance, but normally, sailing upwind, the Surprise should have been left far behind in OW (Just a detail to be fixed later, I can understand that the focus is on battle instance speeds right now).

[HachiRoku]

37 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Our tournament match the other day supports my position completely. Don't need to duel you to prove my point again, you already proved it. 

Every pirate proves my point every day on the os. I've lost track of the tanky ships I've taken down in a fir ship, simply by sniping sails then raking. It's boring actually, only another fast ship can put up a decent fight. It's funny, those with the most to lose are always against balancing the game lol. You are a mast sniper, of course you don't want to see it go away. I get that.

We beat you because the snow split

[HachiRoku]

47 minutes ago, Liq said:

No

What is your base speed?

[Hodo]

4 hours ago, admin said:

We are testing better side force and current overall turning is also affected by several other things.

• for example rudder turns could be too high (and rudder turn speed could be reduced)
• inertia is affecting the tacking and overall turning too as you maintain high speed getting closer to win due to inertia and increased turn rates help you pass the danger zones faster
• yard turning speed also need to be lowered, so users start planning maneuvers a bit more ahead

 

This is a multifaceted issue. 

The yards turn to fast.   Most people sailing in this game have sailing set to default, which on larger ships like a 1st rate, means you have about 70% of your sailing crew required.   I think the yards should turn a LOT slower on a ship that size.  You are trying to move several acres of sail with wind in them with 70% of the needed manpower.   You wont be moving anything fast if it is to be done right.

[GrubbyZebra]

50 minutes ago, Liq said:

I was going like that for a minute at least

Also the tacking performance was ridiculously great, better than a surprise

I will second something is off with the Connie. Was fighting a few of the npc ones last night, and the things were like sports cars all of a sudden. I get the speed being a bit faster than a fatty, but the turn rate was far superior as well (and I have turn mods on the fatty), not to mention she screamed upwind (before, a stern chase close-hauled was very slow gaining, last night, she was within broadside range in no time).

Was also strange to see 3rd and 4th rates turning like brigs (relative to the frigates, not really related to the remarks about the connie). 

[Liq]

26 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

What is your base speed?

Dont know but with repairs and guns something around 13.15

[maturin]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

I want more realistic ballistic behavior vs masts and rigging. Im bored with the sail sniping that's the current meta. Even chain is way too accurate. A lucky 9 lb shot should be able to break a mast, what we shouldn't see is every single ball hitting a mast. I know a bunch of folks who can do that with ease now. That's not possible with smooth bore cannons. Even the best aimed shots still had several meters of variability where they get and that was on land.

A single shot of any caliber would not destroy a lower mast IRL. They were three feet thick or more.

[maturin]

4 hours ago, admin said:

for the next step we will adapt the yard power for lineships using the following modifiers

• Keel Depth- reduces side force due to more friction
• Sail area - increases side force due to more power
• Length of hull - increases side force due to lever effect (the further the lever point is from the center the more effect it gives)
• Weight - reduces side force due to more power required to push

Side force = turning power of yards, right? We're not considering leeway or drifting sideways at all?

Because a none of these factors are going to make an SoL turn faster than a frigate. These factors are all relative. They work in proportion. The SoL has a lot more sail area, but it has a lower sail area:weight ratio and a lower sail area:depth ratio. The SoL may have a longer 'lever' in terms of hull length, but any advantage will be easily reversed by the much higher drag through the water it experiences. So a short hull is still better for turning.

Now, if we're talking about leeway, slipping sideways through the water, then the height of the deck is important, as is the draft.

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

I've lost track of the tanky ships I've taken down in a fir ship, simply by sniping sails then raking. It's boring actually, only another fast ship can put up a decent fight.

You're very wrong. I can't count the number of fast ships I sank actually. Once you take down their sails or masts, they're sitting ducks. For your strategy it's not the speed that counts, but turn rate.

Just like Jon Snow mentioned, you can prove your point in a duel. I can also fight you.

Regading your initial point though - making hull more vulnerable would mean it's more reasonable to focus on a hull, and avoid focusing on mast/sails.

[Malachy]

49 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

We beat you because the snow split

That was part of it, but the main reason wasyou were faster and could control the engagement. from the first few minutes of the fight I could predict how the rest was going to go. I've been in your position and played that same engagement from the other side hundreds of times. The game is too Rock Paper Scissors and sail and mast damage is way out of proportion compared to hull.

[HachiRoku]

24 minutes ago, Liq said:

Dont know but with repairs and guns something around 13.15

I tested why bom and rediii in 2 battles on a 13.5 knot connie and wasn't getting those speeds. Ill test more

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, vazco said:

You're very wrong. I can't count the number of fast ships I sank actually. Once you take down their sails or masts, they're sitting ducks. For your strategy it's not the speed that counts, but turn rate.

Just like Jon Snow mentioned, you can prove your point in a duel. I can also fight you.

Regading your initial point though - making hull more vulnerable would mean it's more reasonable to focus on a hull, and avoid focusing on mast/sails.

Even a light hull is less vulnerable than sails and masts. Most fights are won or lost in the first couple shots. I've seen guys take down a mast in the first shot and three more sections in the next three or four. I've chained down people to 60 percent sails in one broadside, two max. After they blow their sail repair, rinse, repeat and I'm boarding them with full crew and them at 100 inside ten minutes. Also, the slower you go the worse you turn fyi. Speed has been king of the os and will continue to be until sail and mast damage is comparable to hull damage. As it stands, I have zero reason to sail a heavier ship and all the reason to sail a faster one. Why do you think Russia lost all those first rates to connies and bellonas awhile back? We took down their sails in minutes and they were sitting ducks after. Sure, we would never win a broadside duel, but we never had to. Just snipe the masts and the fight was as good as won. All that armor may as well have not been there.

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

What is your base speed?

 Hachi were your ships using sail force? I just checked all my logs from last nights testing. One of my connies handled a little like that one liq posted. It had zero sail force. However, it wouldn't have been a viable pvp ship to solo in because without sail force its way too slow. At only 14.3 at 110. It did do like 11.x art 60 tho 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

That was part of it, but the main reason wasyou were faster and could control the engagement. from the first few minutes of the fight I could predict how the rest was going to go. I've been in your position and played that same engagement from the other side hundreds of times. The game is too Rock Paper Scissors and sail and mast damage is way out of proportion compared to hull.

Yeah but if was in your position I would have also won. You guys started to chain when we had you at 60% sail. You gave us the wind, we didn't take it. If you have the wind sails don't matter as much if you're good at keeping it. The was

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Malachy said:

 Hachi were your ships using sail force? I just checked all my logs from last nights testing. One of my connies handled a little like that one liq posted. It had zero sail force. However, it wouldn't have been a viable pvp ship to solo in because without sail force its way too slow. 

I'm going to test it ASAP. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

I tested why bom and rediii in 2 battles on a 13.5 knot connie and wasn't getting those speeds. Ill test more

According to the sailing profile, a 12.35 kn conni should be able to go 9.54 kn at 60 degrees. 

So there shouldn't be anything odd about liq's picture. 

Remember not to have any sail force on your conni, as that will change the overall profile  

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Yeah but if was in your position I would have also won. You guys started to chain when we had you at 60% sail. You gave us the wind, we didn't take it. If you have the wind sails don't matter as much if you're good at keeping it. The was

If we kept the wind you would have boarded us twenty minutes earlier. The only thing we could have done better maybe was stick closer together. Again, Rock Paper Scissors. Faster ship will always have the advantage in that situation. I knew that going in but figured everyone else would be going for max survivability. Halfway through I told draconis I wished I'd brought a pvp built ship. We would have been much better off in teak teak or something like that. The lack of speed made everything else worse too. I've been on both sides of the coin, and I doubt it would have gone down any different had the roles been reversed. Most battles on the os go down exactly that way. Locate tanky national. Control the engagement and snipe sails and masts. Use superior speed and handling to stay out of their arcs. Once masts and or sails are low enough rake and board. This same scenario plays out hundreds of times a week. Very rarely does the tanky ship get the upper hand. Ask the brits and Spanish how well being tanky helps them lol.

if being tanky was as good as you describe, if we wanted to win fights everyone would be sailing to kpr and belize and Havana in tanky ships. I never see tanky ships going out looking for pvp. You know what I see? Light built, fast ships that can take and control the wind. You know who loses all the battles? Slow tanky ships that can't run and cant go fast enough to take the wind and keep it.

when I see you camping kpr in a live oak white oak ship day in and day out, I'll believe the meta has changed.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy

[HachiRoku]

6 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

According to the sailing profile, a 12.35 kn conni should be able to go 9.54 kn at 60 degrees. 

So there shouldn't be anything odd about liq's picture. 

Remember not to have any sail force on your conni, as that will change the overall profile  

am looking on my phone so Im not sure but if its 60 its ok tbh. 60 is close reach and would be realistic since the mainsails are catching wind. There is a huge performance difference if you're sailing 45. I know for a fact my 13.5 knot Connie did no more than 6.8 knots and that's ok. 

[Malachy]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

am looking on my phone so Im not sure but if its 60 its ok tbh. 60 is close reach and would be realistic since the mainsails are catching wind. There is a huge performance difference if you're sailing 45. I know for a fact my 13.5 knot Connie did no more than 6.8 knots and that's ok. 

Yeah it's 60. I thought it was 45 too (also on my phone)

[Malachy]

17 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

According to the sailing profile, a 12.35 kn conni should be able to go 9.54 kn at 60 degrees. 

So there shouldn't be anything odd about liq's picture. 

Remember not to have any sail force on your conni, as that will change the overall profile  

Any sail force at all changes it to 135 and removes 1 knot over beam reach.

[Vile Executioner]

That speed at 60 is great. Always will have wind over your enemy

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Vile Executioner said:

That speed at 60 is great. Always will have wind over your enemy

wasa is about 0.1 slower at same angle.

[Vile Executioner]

16 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

wasa is about 0.1 slower at same angle.

Yeah its awesome. Wind denial is pretty great for both ships, both have that advantage over many others which is pretty cool. Curious to see the wind profiles of the 5th and 6ths when they release that

[Malachy]

11 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

Yeah its awesome. Wind denial is pretty great for both ships, both have that advantage over many others which is pretty cool. Curious to see the wind profiles of the 5th and 6ths when they release that

Knowing game labs I'm not holding my breath. They will probably just make frigates and 6th all close haul and super fast downwind too to insure an artificial advantage. If some crappy little ship doesn't have every advantage handed to it, game labs isn't happy.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy