z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, admin said: whats the problem? Knowledge slots are your knowledge, not the individual ship knowledge. If you learnt to use AK 74 well before why should you unlearn it if you captured the same AK 74 from the enemy? The problem is that there is no point to use crafted ships anymore. AI ships are as good as every player made ship. So yeah I would use a free cornflakes AK47 when it is the same quality like the russian one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, admin said: Please capture me the rattlesnake heavy from the NPC, or Endymion or Trincomalee. lets talk about economy then So everything is just about the ships above and the other ships are shit so give them away for free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Rickard said: Guys calm down !!! you can only capture ships up until 5th rates!! so everything under 4th is worthless? Edited July 28, 2017 by z4ys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Flinch said: You very well know that is a disingenuous argument. The complaint is that NPC captured ships are too close in performance to player crafted ships so therefore crafted ships are no longer worth making. The market will become barren and an entire focus of the game (crafting ships) is now in jeopardy. no. disposable ships are disposable ships. as you can see from the screenshot above the NPC ships have frame but no planking. that's 5% less thickness on that nice tanky frigate, that's 3% less speed on your renomee. people will use them for cheap and easy pvp but they'll go in expecting to be sunk - those nice mods wont go near a disposable ship. when i sail from mortimer to great corn or tumbado or La Orchilla to set up and raid for the week - I don't want to have to stop every hour to either buy a new ship, cap a new ship, or sail all the way back to mort and build/buy a new ship - i'll still be sailing my nice fast raiders and so will many many others. the market will shift but it will not die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesore Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Admin, you make zero sense, but that is nothing new. Do you understand english well enough? Why do you not answer the questions? Always a reply that has nothing to do with the adressed problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demsity Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) @admin In the future, why not start a voting poll before rather big changes like these. You get a feel of what your testers are thinking about that proposed changes and can adapt your decisions or ask for suggestions on how to improve your ideas. These changes will help new players a lot, reducing the grind and make PVP more accessible, ALL the things the majority of the community have wanted for a long time and what the game desperately needs. If you were to limit the maximum knowledge slots on AI captured ships to 3, the new players wouldn't care and there would still be a huge difference between Ai captured ships and Player crafted ships. We will see how this plays out Edited July 28, 2017 by Demsity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Mrgoldstein said: yeah well the trader brigs for sale are exactly the same,including the planking..what ships are beginning crafters gonna sell now then? grinding up crafting level is now the same as it always was - you build the ship that has the best resource cost to xp ratio, in this case now the brig rather than the trader snow. it has always been a money sink to grind crafting, it will always be a money sink to grind crafting, the only thing that has changed is that you can no longer passively level by selling LH, but that was always a meager portion of the xp. you build, disassemble to recoup losses, and continue on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 @admin Now I only need 1 good/decent ships. I can cap the ship I need. There are even the guns on the ship. I have to care about nothing anymore. I dont need any gold anymore because the AI is carrying the repairs in their holds as well. Thats Arena gamesytle. So why Legends when we go back to Arena in this game? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mrgoldstein said: they even have the guns too? bye cannon crafting market... and ships arent even worse...seriously what a mess again just meds. But yeah now you really dont have to bother about money Edited July 28, 2017 by z4ys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, Mrgoldstein said: they even have the guns too? bye cannon crafting market... and ships arent even worse...seriously what a mess again cannon market remains the same - mediums are easily accessible dirt cheap due to their prevalence as loot in missions, longs and carronades remain valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, John Cavanaugh said: no. disposable ships are disposable ships. as you can see from the screenshot above the NPC ships have frame but no planking. that's 5% less thickness on that nice tanky frigate, that's 3% less speed on your renomee. people will use them for cheap and easy pvp but they'll go in expecting to be sunk - those nice mods wont go near a disposable ship. You have fair points. The prolonged stay on a spot without any real necessity to provide for the campaign has merit as entry level. Although I would discuss that the OW logistics is exactly one of the strongest points of the game, IMO, especially coming from a raider - denying opponents their logistics while assuring my own. Let's say three "zero" cost raiders grab your "pimped" crafted ship. Now let's repeat this hour after hour, day after day. The raider players are themselves "out of the game" given they are only causing the logistics of the enemy to be broken while themselves are not part of their own nation choice logistical needs - NPC free grabs do not affect Nation production at any level, while your ships of choice that you'd have to risk are themselves part of the economical cycle. They were crafted for the purpose meaning they are part of the economy. NPCs are not. Feels odd when looking at the grand scheme and natural cycle. Not against as entry level and basic support for struggling players, it is intended as a measure of ensuring players always have a way out, but on the other hand open up immense gaps. Example, medium cannons. Just grab them from captured NPC. No point in buying unless to save 15 minutes ( =one arena combat game time ). Let's see how it goes Many players did expect such a feature to come back so their gameplay ( less involved style ) was once more equivalent to the sun burnt crews ( so called hardcore ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodo Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 20 minutes ago, admin said: whats the problem? Knowledge slots are YOUR knowledge, not the individual ship quality. If you learnt to use AK 74 well before why should you unlearn it if you captured the same AK 74 from the enemy? Well seeing as the Kalishnikov was designed to be used by chimps, I wouldnt put to much stock in that statement. And yes I am trained on the AK-47, 74, 74U, M-16A1/2, M-4, M-249, and M-2HB. Oddly enough never trained on the PK, PKM, RPK, or M-240.... LOL. I give up. The capture system is great, I love it, I will use it to line my digi-wallet with the breakdown sale these captured ships. Seeing as combat marks are easy enough to come by. Really @admin I thought you were going to try and go hardcore this patch. I see it is about as hard as a marshmallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanay Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) So i can capture any 7th to 5th or trader, repair it, get his medium guns ( all good for a throw out ships and i bet i will be able to get 18pd's or higher there ) or simply put it in shop for sale for a price that will soon be close to 1000 gold for each 5th rate ... well it's a nice message you send to the guys trying to level up them crafting level using a shipyard level 1 or 2 after having removed xp for doing parts ... doing small ships or traders is a dead end for them now. First trader snow i got is fir wood / crew space, ain't bad for something free, tried to put it in shop with a contract sell for 100 gold and worked, NPC take it back for around 7282 gold ... need to see warships, will be funny if they are made of nice woods ... Please next drop me also all the uber upgrades and books the NPC ships use ... this one is most needed ... > Gone preparing a boarding ship to flood the market with 5th rates ships at 1000 gold Edited July 28, 2017 by Kanay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, The Red Duke said: *Snip* Let's say three "zero" cost raiders grab your "pimped" crafted ship. Now let's repeat this hour after hour, day after day. The raider players are themselves "out of the game" given they are only causing the logistics of the enemy to be broken while themselves are not part of their own nation choice logistical needs. *snip* Herein lies the problem with your argument - their zero cost raiders - fir frame no planking, are 5% slower than my own raider before skills and mods. even if they fully pimp out those zero cost ships to get them up to speed, they are no longer zero cost and still can't keep up. and as we all well know, you have to catch someone in order to sink them. with the new speed boost out of combat, revenge ganks and rape cages are now nearly impossible to effectively pull off - so long as i continue to be faster, i dont particularly care if their ships are free and they risk nothing to fight me - because they'll never get that fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maloco Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 17 hours ago, Maloco said: On 17/7/2017 at 11:35 AM, admin said: NPCs no longer sail rattlesnakes, Niagaras and Ingermanlands I play on the server of pve ... now I can not enjoy facing me in battle against these ships, because only the players can carry them and in the server pve only can attack the npc. So I lose game content by choosing the pve system. Why, both me and any player of the server pve, we have to suffer the loss of variety of ships that can enjoy the players of other servers? And there are more ships that we can never face in battle, such as the LOcean, the bucentaure and all those ships that you can only build and sail with them ... I do not think anything fair and I protest for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, John Cavanaugh said: Herein lies the problem with your argument - their zero cost raiders - fir frame no planking, are 5% slower than my own raider before skills and mods. even if they fully pimp out those zero cost ships to get them up to speed, they are no longer zero cost and still can't keep up. and as we all well know, you have to catch someone in order to sink them. with the new speed boost out of combat, revenge ganks and rape cages are now nearly impossible to effectively pull off - so long as i continue to be faster, i dont particularly care if their ships are free and they risk nothing to fight me - because they'll never get that fight. you forget you dont need a pimp upship anymore everyone else will just use capped traders as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesore Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, John Cavanaugh said: Herein lies the problem with your argument - their zero cost raiders - fir frame no planking, are 5% slower than my own raider before skills and mods. even if they fully pimp out those zero cost ships to get them up to speed, they are no longer zero cost and still can't keep up. and as we all well know, you have to catch someone in order to sink them. with the new speed boost out of combat, revenge ganks and rape cages are now nearly impossible to effectively pull off - so long as i continue to be faster, i dont particularly care if their ships are free and they risk nothing to fight me - because they'll never get that fight. The speedlimit is an entirely different issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, John Cavanaugh said: Herein lies the problem with your argument - their zero cost raiders - fir frame no planking, are 5% slower than my own raider before skills and mods. even if they fully pimp out those zero cost ships to get them up to speed, they are no longer zero cost and still can't keep up. and as we all well know, you have to catch someone in order to sink them. with the new speed boost out of combat, revenge ganks and rape cages are now nearly impossible to effectively pull off - so long as i continue to be faster, i dont particularly care if their ships are free and they risk nothing to fight me - because they'll never get that fight. I am talking about economy and logistics and you are talking about combat. The zero cost raider WILL capture your 1st rate yet unborn being hauled by your overloaded traders. You risked a bet into the OW by having your materials on the line. I risked zero, just a simple 1 wood 5 knowledge ship. I always win. Not against the change. Just not happy with the change. I like the challenge. The logistics were a nice distracting and having to plan campaigns was a great feeling. Now, well... no more need 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, z4ys said: you forget you dont need a pimp upship anymore everyone else will just use capped traders as well 1) the matter of personal pride - even when we were using fleets of capped 3rd rates people fled combat - many don't wish to be sunk, they wish to do their best to survive. 2) time sink - myself and others have invested plenty of time already, but I don't want to spend that extra time capping a ship in the middle of hostile waters and hoping i get the one i want - ergo i will bring the one I want with me and ensure that I will keep it. keeping it necessitates that it be able to escape ganks and patrols, thus I will continue to use my crafted ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, The Red Duke said: I am talking about economy and logistics and you are talking about combat. The zero cost raider WILL capture your 1st rate yet unborn being hauled by your overloaded traders. You risked a bet into the OW I risked zero. I always win. Not against the change. Just not happy with the change. i pity then those people foolish enough to run their valuable traders unescorted. we don't make that mistake, but then that's because there is no "friendly water" for us - our indiamen are escorted by a fleet of constitutions - your nice slow renomee is welcome to try us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, John Cavanaugh said: i pity then those people foolish enough to run their valuable traders unescorted. we don't make that mistake, but then that's because there is no "friendly water" for us - our indiamen are escorted by a fleet of constitutions - your nice slow renomee is welcome to try us Can we speak plainly as a whole and not in particular cases ? Let me put it like this... Quantity has a quality of its own. There is no need to risk any more logistic lines with crafted ships. Run of the mill captured ships will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holm Hansen Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Kanay said: So i can capture any 7th to 5th or trader, repair it, get his medium guns ( all good for a throw out ships and i bet i will be able to get 18pd's or higher there ) or simply put it in shop for sale for a price that will soon be close to 1000 gold for each 5th rate ... well it's a nice message you send to the guys trying to level up them crafting level using a shipyard level 1 or 2 after having removed xp for doing parts ... doing small ships or traders is a dead end for them now. First trader snow i got is fir wood / crew space, ain't bad for something free, tried to put it in shop with a contract sell for 100 gold and worked, NPC take it back for around 7282 gold ... need to see warships, will be funny if they are made of nice woods ... Please next drop me also all the uber upgrades and books the NPC ships use ... this one is most needed ... > Gone preparing a boarding ship to flood the market with 5th rates ships at 1000 gold We on the PVE server have it since patch 10.0. There are about 80% ships made by Fir and 20% ships of oak, all without planking trims. They are weak themselve, and due no one want to waste permanent upgrades in them, even weaker. I think no ship market is affected. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cavanaugh Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, The Red Duke said: Can we speak plainly as a whole and not in particular cases ? Let me put it like this... Quantity has a quality of its own. There is no need to risk any more logistic lines with crafted ships. Run of the mill captured ships will do. ok let us speak directly of logistics. I can build my fir/fir surprise and slap a gazelle on it for under 75k guns and all because of the way our clan handles crafting and resource management. I can make up the cost of that ship in 1 mission. You on the other hand will grind out 6 or 7 missions trying to find the ship you want, cap it, and hope the roll of the dice gives you the frame you want. You have invested more time, gained less, and ended with an inferior product. your zero cost ship cost you more than my crafted ship, it will be lost quickly forcing a repeat of the investment, whereas mine will continue to sail and wreak havoc on trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said: We on the PVE server have it since patch 10.0. There are about 80% ships made by Fir and 20% ships of oak, all without planking trims. They are weak themselve, and due no one want to waste permanent upgrades in them, even weaker. I think no ship market is affected. On a PvE server you cant troll people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koltes Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 46 minutes ago, admin said: Please capture me the rattlesnake heavy from the NPC, or Endymion or Trincomalee. lets talk about economy then Why not make all AI ships 1 perma upgrade slots and totally random wood type frames and planking? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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