Limited Battle Timer is Anti-PvP

[Tenet]

Just now, Tomms123 said:

Well if the battle were right on top of you then you would have been able to join in 3 minutes. Thus it weren't right on top of you.

Are you paying attention?

We were on top of the join circle but could not join because of the "Can't Join Battle" timer that happens when you leave another battle. That other battle also included 1 minute of just waiting for the battle to start - even when the enemy was almost instantly sunk and battle-over. 

[Tomms123]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

Are you paying attention?

We were on top of the join circle but could not join because of the "Can't Join Battle" timer that happens when you leave another battle. That other battle also included 1 minute of just waiting for the battle to start - even when the enemy was almost instantly sunk and battle-over. 

1

Well, explain it better and people will understand what you mean, I'm not a wizard (many say I'm an orc but that is just a false rumor) which knows exactly what you think.

[Iroquois Confederacy]

The timer is too long as it is.  Those who want longer timers just want to not have to sail together.

[Tenet]

5 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

The timer is too long as it is.  Those who want longer timers just want to not have to sail together.

If you paid any attention to the top post you would notice that your open world ganking is protected or even improved if the system is made dynamic - the further away, the smaller the BR, the smaller the timers. 

You want to play guerilla warfare? Excellent - stay out of populated areas and strike at actual isolated targets. 

Fleet vs. Fleet PvP needs less lawyering magic and more dynamic rules. 

What's the defence for 60 second waits before a battle starts? People with old PC's? 

What's the defense for the 100+ second "can't join battle" timer after leaving another? PvE Farming? Keep the rule applicable to PvE missions only. ALT Farming? Figure out how to remove it from the game.

Group PvP should be the priority because it keeps people coming back and promoting the game to their friends. 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tenet

[Prater]

If people want long timers, they need to spawn far away.  Lets test you spawn 3km away per minute after the initial battle start.  This is being generous, because in 1 minute you can sail 20-30 nautical miles.

[Prater]

2 minutes ago, Tenet said:

If you paid any attention to the top post you would notice that your open world ganking is protected or even improved if the system is made dynamic - the further away, the smaller the BR, the smaller the timers. 

You want to play guerilla warfare? Excellent - stay out of populated areas and strike at actual isolated targets. 

Fleet vs. Fleet PvP needs less lawyering magic and more dynamic rules. 

Again, if you want to take part, stick together.  Open world and pvp needs less space ships and more sailing ships.

[Tenet]

Just now, Prater said:

Again, if you want to take part, stick together.  Open world and pvp needs less space ships and more sailing ships.

Says the guy protecting himself by the magic "can't shoot for 60 seconds" timer and "can't join battle" timers. 

Good luck trying to Goebbels approach - your arguments don't grow stronger through repetition. 

[Prater]

Your argument has no grounds whatsoever.  If you want space ships, go play eve.

[Tenet]

13 minutes ago, Prater said:

Your argument has no grounds whatsoever.  If you want space ships, go play eve.

You literally ignored every grounds written in earlier posts and spammed this thread trying to derail and flame bait. Good job failing to argue your side and making me win by default. 

The tag circle has nothing to do with realism or miles or staying close - it's very small compared to the scale and movement of bigger ships in the Open-World. 

The BR system is static and treats a 1v1 the same way as a 25v25, for no reason specified by anyone in this thread. 

The "can't join battle" timer after PvP battles is ridiculous and NO ONE in this thread tried to defend it so far.

WHO IS RUNNING FROM THE FIGHT AGAIN? 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tenet

[Prater]

Attacking moderators and moderation now?

 

You can't take an argument without personal attacks.  I already gave the solution to the above, you just ignored it because you just want to gank.  If join timers are longer, spawn distances need to be huge.

[Liq]

I mean I can see what Tenet is saying. If you have two battle-tagging circles literally next to each other, of which only one has the actual battle happening, the other operating as some sort of screening battle. Sucks, I agree, but not sure there is a good workaround in terms of 'merging' battles which are set up in the same timeframe (half a minute to a minute or something), except increasing battle join timer, which I think will certainly not be healthy for the game.

[Prater]

Well, I was a fan of the large attack circles.

[Prater]

5 minutes ago, Tenet said:

 

The tag circle has nothing to do with realism or miles or staying close. 

 

Yes, it does.

[Tenet]

2 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I mean I can see what Tenet is saying. If you have two battle-tagging circles literally next to each other, of which only one has the actual battle happening, the other operating as some sort of screening battle. Sucks, I agree, but not sure there is a good workaround in terms of 'merging' battles which are set up in the same timeframe (half a minute to a minute or something), except increasing battle join timer, which I think will certainly not be healthy for the game.

One workaround would be to remove the "can't join battle" timer from PvP, and reduce the pre-battle counter below it's current length. 

The other workaround would be to have a system that responds dynamically to the sizes of fleets involved and their distance from secure locations like Regional Capitals. 

[Cimbi]

24 minutes ago, Tomms123 said:

Well, let's get some facts straight here.

The current join timer is 3 minutes, so if your friends can't be there in 3 minutes they weren't close and thus should not be allowed to join. Do you know how bad of a mechanic it's to have long join timers? We once had 15 and even longer join timers, the fights were most of the time over when someone could still join in to fight, this led to you being the winner of the battle to being the loser because someone joined in 14 minutes later after the battle started.

And yes this is a revenge fleet situation, if you arent close to each other you should not be able to end up in the same battle, because that is how it worked. I couldn't be 20 miles away and expect to be at the location in 1 minute. And also you're saying that we personally benefit from our thinking that "what you see you get" yes and no. If we see 20 ships attacking us that will be what is attacking us, If I see 1 ship and I attack it that shall be it and nothing more. Your system will benefit you and those which likes ganks, nothing else.

 

With your system, it won't be a group. It will be a big task force system which can be spread out miles and miles around which can come to someone's rescue (this doesn't even happen today, today we use ASM but even those takes several minutes to reach their targets depending on distance and they fly several 100 Km/h)

No offense but its not true.That time was huge battels because peoples joined from both sides(teleport).If someone joined in 14 minutes later after the battle started he was so far you was abel to leave the battle very easy.So yes i prefer that system if i went with my freinds and attack someone near to enemy capital we know we will be in disadvantage but we dealt with it.

Both system The short join timer plus battle screen and the short join timer without screen is the perfect setup for gankers.

[Prater]

You do realize what the cant join timer is for right?  It stops people from teleporting to an area to join in a gank.  It stops people from leaving an invisible battle and jumping onto unsuspecting passersby.  I.e, it stops eploiting 

[Blackjack Morgan]

24 minutes ago, Tenet said:

You literally ignored every grounds written in earlier posts and spammed this thread trying to derail and flame bait. Good job failing to argue your side and making me win by default. 

The tag circle has nothing to do with realism or miles or staying close - it's very small compared to the scale and movement of bigger ships in the Open-World. 

The BR system is static and treats a 1v1 the same way as a 25v25, for no reason specified by anyone in this thread. 

The "can't join battle" timer after PvP battles is ridiculous and NO ONE in this thread tried to defend it so far.

WHO IS RUNNING FROM THE FIGHT AGAIN? 

[Farrago]

20 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

I mean I can see what Tenet is saying. If you have two battle-tagging circles literally next to each other, of which only one has the actual battle happening, the other operating as some sort of screening battle. Sucks, I agree, but not sure there is a good workaround in terms of 'merging' battles which are set up in the same timeframe (half a minute to a minute or something), except increasing battle join timer, which I think will certainly not be healthy for the game.

Thanks for taking a step back and trying to see it from all sides. I think many -- but obviously not all of us -- want the same thing: good PVP that is as realistic as possible. What Tenet seems to be trying to do here and what I suggested in another thread are ways to use battle timers to try to accomplish this goal because right now, the way timers and closing battle instances work always create some sort of bizarre, unrealistic situation for one side or another.

The "perfect" solution is not acceptable to probably anyone: No timers and OW and Battle speeds are the same. We obviously don't want that. If the developers could do it, would it work if time/speeds/distances go "real" if one is within a certain distance of a battle zone?

[Prater]

There is a perfect solution.  If you are far from the batte when it starts, you have to sail a long ways in battle to get there.

17 minutes ago, Cimbi said:

No offense but its not true.That time was huge battels because peoples joined from both sides(teleport).If someone joined in 14 minutes later after the battle started he was so far you was abel to leave the battle very easy.So yes i prefer that system if i went with my freinds and attack someone near to enemy capital we know we will be in disadvantage but we dealt with it.

Both system The short join timer plus battle screen and the short join timer without screen is the perfect setup for gankers.

It was never that way.  The only time you spawned far away was when there were no battle timers and someone actively sailed away so the batte moved away from the spawn points and someone joined a lot later at the original spawn point

Edited June 26, 2017 by Prater

[Pada]

3 hours ago, Tenet said:

The Solo Ganker is fast and mobile

Solo Ganker???

[Cimbi]

1 hour ago, Prater said:

There is a perfect solution.  If you are far from the batte when it starts, you have to sail a long ways in battle to get there.

It was never that way.  The only time you spawned far away was when there were no battle timers and someone actively sailed away so the batte moved away from the spawn points and someone joined a lot later at the original spawn point

Yes thats right, but  y are not circle around  spawn point.

[Tenet]

5 hours ago, SeaHyena said:

#1 no teamspeak in age of sail. #2 If a battle was out of sight you wouldn't have known about it. #3 If you escaped, you escaped. 

If you all didn't get into the battle then you did something wrong. Sail as a fleet. ^^

Many things are not like in Age of Sail - the fact that you survive getting sunk or captured being one of many examples.

This is about the gameplay. The current tag-circle in the game is much smaller than sight range - not sure why you are arguing about "out of sight"? Are you agreeing with me that it should be bigger to avoid ridiculous situations where you can see a battle start but can't  get in because "can't join battles" timer?

We did something wrong according to the current terrible restrictions - never denied  the mistake. The "sail as a fleet" implies right now in the game to fit your ships one on top of another, sometimes being unable to see the actual model. Anything else can allow a fleet to be "cut up". That's counter-intuitive and ridiculous. 

Perhaps I should re-post this thread focusing on the "can't join battle" timer, because that's actually the thing that prevents a proper response within the current system. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenet

[Prater]

Your sight range in the open world is 30-40 miles.  In real life it takes a bit of time for a ship to travel this distance.

what is the cant join timer for?

1.  Stop exploiting

2.  Stop gankers from hiding in port and jumping on unsuspecting enemies. 

3.  Stop people from teleporting and jumping in on ganks.

4.  Stop people from leaving an npc or outlaw battle that they are hidden in and jump on unsuspecting players

 

Until there is a system that protects against these, there has to be cant join timers.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Prater

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

Your sight range in the open world is 30-40 miles.  In real life it takes a bit of time for a ship to travel this distance.

In  a Surprise @ 12knts you are looking at a bit over 3 hours sailing, even if the wind was with you and at best point of sail you would be just about half way to the battle before it times out in game, In reality the battle may still be going on at 3 hours, many battles ran considerably longer.

We would all agree that 3,6, or 12 hour battles are simply not practical, if we were to say that a ship inside a 10 mile circle could, dependent on wind,  make it to the battle site in time to be effective would that be more reasonable?

[Teutonic]

So for the example that was put, here was how it played out from our end.

1. dutch fleet sighted coming back to fight us
2. they decide to tag one of our guys that's "annoying them"
3. we were just outside view range, heard the call and rush towards the enemy dutch fleet
4. their battle starts and 1 victory was apparently left outside the battle circle
5. we target the lone victory while our friend fights the enemy dutch fleet in the other battle

Due to being unable to leave a battle for 2 minutes and then a 60 second "unable to join battle" timer, the dutch fleet was unable to leave their battle in time and join the battle with the lone victory. Resulting in a 5th rate swarm being able to eventually cap a lone victory.

just to be clear, I am a player in favor of longer join timers.

Granted I think the important thing here is to know the ROE of this game. If you don't want a player to get stuck outside a battle, don't start the battle until all your friends are within the circle. Honestly not sure of a solution as the current ROE is...well not something I like, but I'll take it over instant closing battles all the way.