Limited Battle Timer is Anti-PvP

[Tenet]

Suggestion:

Make Battle Join Timers Dynamic - the Higher the starting BR, the longer the Timer. 

Optional: The closer to a Regional Capital, the higher the battle timer.

Optional: There should be a "larger" circle that counts all the BR in the Area, and that BR should also affect the Battle Timer.

If you "bite off" a piece of a larger fleet already in the area, that fleet will have the option to join the fight.

BR and Tagging mechanics should be Dynamic and Scale-Up to match the size of the Fleets involved.

Explanation:

Make Gankers actually work for their kills - sail out into Open World, intercept people away from help. 

When people try to fight actual OW PvP with larger fleets, they get blocked by this timer nonsense. 

This is the scenario we experienced yesterday:

There's an Enemy Ship following right inside a Group Fleet, scouting and relaying every minute movement. 

The caller decided to tag that ship and sink it. 

One of the people in the Fleet gets left behind the tag circle, and gets tagged by the Enemy Fleet into a second battle.

The enemy scout ship gets obliterated using Preparation, everyone leaves that battle immediately. 

The Second battle, right in the same location, is already closed.  

The game literally STOPS PVP from happening despite being right on top of the same area, same fleet, same group, and on the scale of this game, same time.

________________________________

How is that good for the gameplay? Where are all the "realism" and "intuitive rules" defenders? Why does fighting in enemy waters feel like Lawyer Procedural instead of NAVAL ACTION?! 

Yes, I understand that in the above situation, our group and the "straggler" ship made mistakes, and according to the Rules of the game we were properly punished. I am not contesting that at all. The Rules are the problem. They enable lazy gankers to hold the rest of the population hostage and ruin group PvP. The Small Group PvPer is fast and mobile, can adapt and hunt farther from populated areas. The Fleet Group has no choice but to sail deep into enemy territory to raise hostility. The Fleet Groups should have the priority in Game Balance.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenet

[Prater]

Realism means people should have to sail together and attack together to be in the same battle, and if they come to it late, they have to sail a long ways up to the battle to get there.  They shouldn't plop right into the middle of the fight as if they just warped in upon a space ship.  Even when in home waters, they are sailing dozens of nautical miles to get to the battle.  That takes time.  Open World is 75x faster than battle.  So if people join late, they need to join at extreme distances and have to sail up to the fight in real time.

[Tenet]

Just now, Prater said:

Realism means people should have to sail together and attack together to be in the same battle, and if they come to it late, they have to sail a long ways up to the battle to get there.  They shouldn't plop right into the middle of the fight as if they just warped in upon a space ship.  Even when in home waters, they are sailing dozens of nautical miles to get to the battle.  That takes time.  Open World is 75x faster than battle.  So if people join late, they need to join at extreme distances and have to sail up to the fight in real time.

You missed our example where we were literally on top of each other in game terms.

We were not a "revenge fleet" we were not "warped in upon a spaceship" WE WERE RIGHT THERE.

That battle lasted over 30 minutes - we could not join near or far or anywhere. 

YOU are the one defending MAGIC BLOCKING OF PVP.

We MAGICALLY cannot assist a ship dragged into a battle almost on top of the battle we left.

You are the one trying to lawyer yourself out of fights with imaginary conditions.

 

[Nelsons Barrel]

Will not work.

[Prater]

I'm not trying to lawyer anything.  You think you can be miles apart and still assist each other, that you can have as many people as you want in a battle.  That isn't the case.  SAIL TOGETHER if you want to fight together.  If you don't sail together, you shouldn't be able to fight together.  And by together, I mean close in open world.

 

All the actual pvpers are leaving the game because revenge fleets are ruining perfect fights.  Yesterday we had 2 Swedes run from 1 player so that they could get a 10v1.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Prater

[Tenet]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

Will not work.

Will work. 

Write out a counter argument. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Tenet

[TommyShelby]

2 minutes ago, Tenet said:

You missed our example where we were literally on top of each other in game terms.

We were not a "revenge fleet" we were not "warped in upon a spaceship" WE WERE RIGHT THERE.

That battle lasted over 30 minutes - we could not join near or far or anywhere. 

YOU are the one defending MAGIC BLOCKING OF PVP.

We MAGICALLY cannot assist a ship dragged into a battle almost on top of the battle we left.

You are the one trying to lawyer yourself out of fights with imaginary conditions.

 

If you were literally on top of each other how did you manage to not all get into the same battle? 

[Nelsons Barrel]

21 minutes ago, Tenet said:

Write out a counter argument please.

Joining Timers and revenge fleets are the death of pvp right now. You want to prolong joining timers and even penalt going to enemy zones? Get your facts straight before posting such suggestion.

 

Edit:

Edited out the unnecessary part, Captain please read up on the rules again specially on rule #1. - Moderating team

Edit: you could you please restore my edit before? Thanks. Answer: No - Moderating team

[Tenet]

8 minutes ago, Prater said:

I'm not trying to lawyer anything.  You think you can be miles apart and still assist each other, that you can have as many people as you want in a battle.  That isn't the case.  SAIL TOGETHER if you want to fight together.  If you don't sail together, you shouldn't be able to fight together.  And by together, I mean close in open world.

Yes you are proposing the current lawyer magic spaceship shields remain intact because YOU personally benefit from them and the hell with the gameplay or PvP.

The battles were so close when we exited  one of them, half our group was right at the edge or inside the join circle for the other battle. We were literally lawyered by Magic out of joining it because of the overlapping timers.

This is no "revenge fleet" situation. 

BR and tagging settings should not be the same for both 1v1 and 10v10 and 25v25 situations.

They should be DYNAMIC and adjusting to the SCALE of the forces involved.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tenet

[Nelsons Barrel]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

BR and tagging settings should not be the same for both 1v1 and 10v10 and 25v25 situations.

They should be DYNAMIC and adjusting to the SCALE of the forces involved.

When an area has 10 enemy ships, and you have 1 ship, you should not be able to Magic Lawyer a Duel.

You should be forced to run and bring your own group to even the odds. 

The dynamic br thingy should already be in this game, devs just missed the point that that suggestion focused on the old ROE-circle-system. Now we are sitting here with shitty small circles able to split fleets in parts by just getting a little bit more distant to your enemy.

[Sureshot]

#1 no teamspeak in age of sail. #2 If a battle was out of sight you wouldn't have known about it. #3 If you escaped, you escaped. 

If you all didn't get into the battle then you did something wrong. Sail as a fleet. ^^

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

When an area has 10 enemy ships, and you have 1 ship, you should not be able to Magic Lawyer a Duel.

You should be forced to run and bring your own group to even the odds. 

3 min join timer? Do you know how much 3 minutes is in Open World? Even ships in port can leave port, prepare their ship (which would take a shit ton of time IRL, and NA is supposed to be realistic?) and join the battle.

I have had a 1v2 yesterday, me being the one and in a cecilia, versus two surprises, As noone was in range after the 3 minutes, the battle closed, as it should be. But guses what they did? They chained me to death so they could leave which then gave them time to set up a revenge fleet consisting of 10 ships. They eventually managed to sink me.

Even longer join timer? God please no.

I get that hunting in enemy waters should be and in fact IS dangerous. if you don't pay enough attention, you will be trapped by ships coming at you. However, if you meet a revenge fleet after ESCAPING in a battle.. that is just a broken ass game mechanic.

If you now say that one shouldnt hunt in enemy waters... Well then... Go sail the endless sea in the middle of nowhere for a few hours and report us your findings. I bet you won't see a single soul.

[Prater]

Tenet, Lol, you a proposing a ganking system that is magic with flying magic warping teleporting Tall Ships.  We are proponents of what you see is what you get, or, if not that, we are proponents of, if you join late, you have to sail a LONG WAYS in battle to get to the ships.  I.e.  Something more historical than the Space Ship system on earth that you are proposing with magically warping tall ships that magically appear right next to you after battle has already started, instead of them appearing on the horizon and having to sail to you.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Prater

[Barbancourt]

Be AT the battle when it starts, or read about it in the newspaper tomorrow.  (or in a couple weeks in the Age of Sail)

[Tomms123]

12 minutes ago, Tenet said:

Yes you are proposing the current lawyer magic spaceship shields remain intact because YOU personally benefit from them and the hell with the gameplay or PvP.

The battles were so close when we exited  one of them, half our group was right at the edge or inside the join circle for the other battle. We were literally lawyered by Magic out of joining it because of the overlapping timers.

This is no "revenge fleet" situation. 

BR and tagging settings should not be the same for both 1v1 and 10v10 and 25v25 situations.

They should be DYNAMIC and adjusting to the SCALE of the forces involved.

When an area has 10 enemy ships, and you have 1 ship, you should not be able to Magic Lawyer a Duel.

You should be forced to run and bring your own group to even the odds. 

Well, let's get some facts straight here.

The current join timer is 3 minutes, so if your friends can't be there in 3 minutes they weren't close and thus should not be allowed to join. Do you know how bad of a mechanic it's to have long join timers? We once had 15 and even longer join timers, the fights were most of the time over when someone could still join in to fight, this led to you being the winner of the battle to being the loser because someone joined in 14 minutes later after the battle started.

And yes this is a revenge fleet situation, if you arent close to each other you should not be able to end up in the same battle, because that is how it worked. I couldn't be 20 miles away and expect to be at the location in 1 minute. And also you're saying that we personally benefit from our thinking that "what you see you get" yes and no. If we see 20 ships attacking us that will be what is attacking us, If I see 1 ship and I attack it that shall be it and nothing more. Your system will benefit you and those which likes ganks, nothing else.

 

With your system, it won't be a group. It will be a big task force system which can be spread out miles and miles around which can come to someone's rescue (this doesn't even happen today, today we use ASM but even those takes several minutes to reach their targets depending on distance and they fly several 100 Km/h)

[Tenet]

Here comes BORK to defend the lawyering they happened to benefit from this time, and may the game burn.

YOU didn't have the people to defend against all the nations you attacked and you are relying on these magic limitations to avoid the actual fight that was brought to your front door. 

The ridiculously small tag circles relative to BR involved (once you have 10+ ships in an area)

The ridiculous limitation on joining a fight after leaving one if there was another battle right near the area. 

These are the things you selfishly support because "this time" you benefitted from the rules. 

 

4 minutes ago, Tomms123 said:

Well, let's get some facts straight here.

The current join timer is 3 minutes

There is also the timer preventing you from joining another battle.

There is also the timer you have to wait inside the battle before it starts.

If you want 3 minute timers or less, you need to balance the other timers too, and the Tag Circle and other features of this system.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Tenet

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, Tenet said:

(once you have 10+ ships in an area)

Can you define "in the area" ? three minutes OW speed seems plenty?

[Farrago]

Well what Tenet is saying is perfectly clear, but I was there, so let me try one time for those who don't seem to understand the scenario...

Two Dutch ships were sailing east. They encountered a French fleet or 8 or so ships sailing west. (With me so far?)

French fleet tags the Dutch. Dutch, through their superior seamanship are able to avoid being sunk over the course of a 30 minute or so battle. 6 or so French leave at some point in this battle. 3 stay in. This battle lasts 30+ minutes. All French finally decide to leave battle.

A Dutch fleet is sailing west. The cross swords are long gone for the original battle. But suddenly 3 French and 2 Dutch appear almost in the middle of this second Dutch fleet. But because of timers, PVP is lost because even tho in reality they would have been within cannon shot of each other, the original battle is invisible.

You guys basically just don't want to fight want your quartz stop watch as part of your arsenal of weapons.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Farrago

[Tomms123]

Well, @Tenet by what do you consider "right near the area"? Is it several minutes of sailing? Then it's not "right near the area" then it's several miles in RL distance which took way more than a couple of minutes to travel.

 

And your comment right there just shows clearly you want this system so you can win and not them. Thus I will do everything in my allowed power to make it not come true, this is for 2 reasons. It's a bad idea and mechanic which has been proven about 4 times in the past by testing with long timers for battles and that you don't think for the good of the game overall but that you want to win and that you feel cheated.

[Liq]

Just now, Farrago said:

You guys basically just don't want to fight and want your timers to be able to add your quartz stop watch to your arsenal of weapons.

pls

 

[Tenet]

Just now, Liquicity said:

Can you define "in the area" ? three minutes OW speed seems plenty?

It's "plenty" unless you have a "can't join battle" timer preventing you from joining the next battle right on top of you, or the Timer preventing you from instantly firing on the enemy next to you. Those timers need to go? 

[Barbancourt]

"Lawyering"?  LOL, that is precious.  You can't even admit to yourself how thoroughly you were outplayed.  Game has rules - ignore them, you lose. 

 

[Prater]

1 minute ago, Farrago said:

Well what Tenet is saying is perfectly clear, but I was there, so let me try one time for those who don't seem to understand the scenario...

Two Dutch ships were sailing east. They encountered a French fleet or 8 or so ships sailing west. (With me so far?)

French fleet tags the Dutch. Dutch, through their superior seamanship are able to avoid being sunk over the course of a 30 minute or so battle. 6 or so French leave at some point in this battle. 3 stay in. This battle lasts 30+ minutes. All French finally decide to leave battle.

A Dutch fleet is sailing west. The cross swords are long gone for the original battle. But suddenly 3 French and 2 Dutch appear almost in the middle of this second Dutch fleet. But because of timers, PVP is lost because even tho in reality they would have been within cannon shot of each other, the original battle is invisible.

You guys basically just don't want to fight and want your timers to be able to add your quartz stop watch to your arsenal of weapons.

This is a revenge fleet.

The battle took place at speed x1.  You sailed several dozen nautical miles at speed x75 to get there.  If you wanted it to be like real life, you should have to travel that distance in battle at speed x1.  There you go.  Travel at speed x1 and you can rightly get your fleet into battle.

[Tomms123]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

It's "plenty" unless you have a "can't join battle" timer preventing you from joining the next battle right on top of you, or the Timer preventing you from instantly firing on the enemy next to you. Those timers need to go? 

Well if the battle were right on top of you then you would have been able to join in 3 minutes. Thus it weren't right on top of you.

[Farrago]

3 minutes ago, Prater said:

This is a revenge fleet.

The battle took place at speed x1.  You sailed several dozen nautical miles at speed x75 to get there.  If you wanted it to be like real life, you should have to travel that distance in battle at speed x1.  There you go.  Travel at speed x1 and you can rightly get your fleet into battle.

No. It was two fleets (or rather 3) stumbling in to each other because one of them was invisible.

However, none of them could fight each other because of timers.

So many of you want the timers because it gives you some sort of advantage depending on whether you like to attack or feel the need to defend. Defenders want long timers so that they can get "help". Attackers want short timers so that they can avoid revenge fleets or reinforcements. I hate all timers because no matter what, they always give someone an unrealistic, unfair advantage. Do not take my use of the word "unfair" here to mean that I think war should be "fair". It shouldn't. Use as many ships as you can to bring overwhelming force to bear. But don't let a stopwatch determine combat in this game.

Get rid or timers it's an even (although imperfect) playing field. Try it. You might enjoy PVP more if you don't have a screwy advantage and instead use your own considerable skill, your own fleet's tactics, and your own nation's strategy.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Farrago