maturin Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Here is a feature idea that should have occurred me to earlier: Ships with broken or damaged rudders should suffer from speed penalties, especially on a close-hauled point of sail. Why? Because a ship does not steer like a car. In almost all cases, the wind will exert a turning force on the rig, which needs to be counteracted by the rudder. Rather than holding the wheel in a constant position, frequent adjustments by the helmsman are required to keep the ship on course. When sailing upwind, the helmsman usually needs to keep the rudder slightly (or more) to leeward. If the steering is impaired, then the ship will often spin out of control. It then falls to the crew to trim the sails as a replacement for the rudder (manual sails). Invariably, the ideal sail trim to keeping the ship on course will not be the optimal trim for fast sailing. While closehauled, the spanker may need to be taken in entirely, and the after yards depowered to some degree. Of course, this happens mostly in our imaginations when in-game rudders are damaged. Why is this a good feature? Imagine yourself the victim of a gank. If the enemy comes to grips with you, you are usually doomed. But what if you have a brief opportunity to swoop down on the enemy squadron, carry out a careful raking broadside of their fastest ship, and then flee upwind while repairing sails? Likewise, if you want to stealthily deny your opponent a chance to escape, or preserve your own ability to leave the fight, you can aim for the rudder without wasting firepower on his sails. He might not realize what you are attempting, while a load of chain gives away your plans. TL;DR Significant speed penalty for damaged rudders on close-hauled courses. Mild speed penalty for heavily-damaged rudders when sailing downwind. If wind strength and storms ever get (back) in the game, this effect would be far more serious in rough weather. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 A question regarding the vulnerability of rudders: Currently rudders are very easy to take out, would you see that chance decreased? Since the impact of it will be increased this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Blackthorne Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I like the idea, however, our left and right rudder keys are on/off switches and we are not able to set them at degrees like our yards. Perhaps this should become a control feature to have the rudder operate at degrees like the yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 I like the idea, however, our left and right rudder keys are on/off switches and we are not able to set them at degrees like our yards. Perhaps this should become a control feature to have the rudder operate at degrees like the yards. Right, the idea is just to continue the permament autoskipper for steering that we have now. And just add a simple little script debuff, which simulates the work the must be doing with the sails (invisibly). Locking the rudder at smaller deflections is a popular grognard idea, but in combination with actual lee-weather helm it sits in simulator territory. A question regarding the vulnerability of rudders: Currently rudders are very easy to take out, would you see that chance decreased? Since the impact of it will be increased this way. Dunno, I rather thought the reverse. Rudders are so easy to repair that it would be easy to avoid decisive speed penalties. Maybe the penalty only kicks in at >50% HP. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethwill Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Sounds like a reasonable translation of RL into game mechanics, worth a test. On pair with this, should trim be affected by every 10% of rigging lost ( in game meaning limitation on yard rotation or even set to running on a shock) ? Lines are cut, yards set loose, mast free of tension, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) Love it. Is there any reason why we can't just get gradual rudder input while we're at it, to the benefit of not only this but in general as well? As opposed to the current nothing, full rudder input, or have to tap non-stop to maintain it at anything less than full. This is also an evil plot to get a rudder axis so that I can steer the rudder with my racing wheel like a proper captain, yarr!. Edited October 7, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockheed Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Very nice idea and would give us a little more control over the ship while further extends the tactical opportunities during combat. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Archer Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 It must be wisely balanced, but I would like to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 love to hear a team mate screaming "I lost a rudder!" Because he knows that his ship will now be out of control and he will have to use manual sails to correct until it is fixed. Slowing the whole ship down. But the devs would have to be very careful that this often chance rudder damage in a real battle does not in game become peoples speciality and the only way ships are taken down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurken Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 perfect, it will be even easier to gank people. now you dont have to shoot sails for 20 min, just blow away the rudder with your bow guns and they can neither turn nor run, maybe we should make all the cannons jam when the rudder is damaged aswell? like a true achilliesheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 10, 2016 Author Share Posted October 10, 2016 perfect, it will be even easier to gank people. now you dont have to shoot sails for 20 min, just blow away the rudder with your bow guns and they can neither turn nor run, maybe we should make all the cannons jam when the rudder is damaged aswell? like a true achilliesheel If you can get several good hits on someone's rudder, you have already caught them. Rudders can also be repaired more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaine Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 A question regarding the vulnerability of rudders: Currently rudders are very easy to take out, would you see that chance decreased? Since the impact of it will be increased this way. i know i would tbh sence usualy in soloing fleet orders i have a tendancy to lost that bloody rudder atleast 3 times or so in a fight i still would like to see this in game tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Here is a feature idea that should have occurred me to earlier: Ships with broken or damaged rudders should suffer from speed penalties, especially on a close-hauled point of sail. Follow up question in regards of something broken limiting speed. Should you take more water if you sail faster? Or better phrased - should you take less water in (through structural or leak damage) if you stop? and if yes. by how much? This feature is already done and is just waiting to be switched on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Follow up question in regards of something broken limiting speed. Should you take more water if you sail faster? Or better phrased - should you take less water in (through structural or leak damage) if you stop? and if yes. by how much? This feature is already done and is just waiting to be switched on Not really sure. It's understandable that leaks in the bow would be difficult to plug at higher speeds. And a ship that's being sailed hard will flex and strain in the waves. Based on this chart, a 4" hole near the waterline will admit water which is moving at around 4 miles per hour. So I suppose if you add 12 miles per hour of boatspeed, you could see a real difference. That's my ignoramus physics hypothesis. https://flexpvc.com/Reference/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ribault Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) As I understand it, the speed of taking on the water is dependent on the difference in pressure between inside and outside the ship, most of which is based on the waterline levels on both sides of the hull (it's more involved than that, but basically that). So regarding your question on the inrush speed, if your ship has movement / speed while it is sinking from holes, this won't change the static pressures on either side of the hull (in or out), but it will change the total pressure acting on the outside of the ship, and that change will be dependent on the location of the hole(s). Think for example how it's measured in aviation during flight, with a pitot tube measuring the static and total pressures and the impact pressure is actually used to calibrate it. Impact pressure alternately called the velocity pressure. For the sinking ship, if the hole is by coincidence directly at the front of the ship, and the ship is moving straight forward then 100% of the impact pressure (velocity pressure) will be acting on the hole because it is perpendicular, and the speed of the inrush will increase because the total pressure outside the ship increased, that is to say that the static pressure which didn't change was now supplemented by the impact pressure. However, if the hole is actually on the side of the ship (abeam, perpendicular to the ship's length), and the ship is moving straight forward then the impact pressure on the hole will now be zero, and therefore the total pressure on the hole will be the same as the static pressure and the inrush will be the same as if the ship was not moving at all (ignore the shear at the hole affecting the turbulence and water jet properties). I probably didn't explain that well, but (Edit: the inrush speed of the water for a moving ship the change in the inrush speed of the water when the ship is moving instead of stationary) will be basically dependent upon the location of the hole and the direction the ship is heading in. That's my understanding of the physics here, but please feel free to correct me. Now as far as how much of the total inrush speed is dependent on the impact pressure, I'd have to do some calculations there, but most of it is dependent on static pressure, so if you wanted to implement it you could just say that the peak effect from impact pressure is 10% or so worst case, and slides downward to near 0% depending on the speed and direction the ship is heading in. The calcs could get ridiculous in-game since the ship is constantly turning and speeding up and slowing down (and a losing player is getting more and more holes at the same time), so simpler would be better IMO. Edited October 12, 2016 by Jean Ribault 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomms123 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Pretty much what Jean Ribault wrote. Look into Bernoulli's Principle there is the formula for what Jean is talking about. I have been trying to locate more exact formulas which I know has been used, but had no success on finding it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Ribault Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Pretty much what Jean Ribault wrote. Look into Bernoulli's Principle there is the formula for what Jean is talking about. I have been trying to locate more exact formulas which I know has been used, but had no success on finding it You want my fluid dynamics textbooks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomms123 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 You want my fluid dynamics textbooks? Yes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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