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JollyRoger1516

Yesterday upon the stair (Ganking Fleets)

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2.10-15mins in addition per way then - after 3 hours that wouldnt amtter anymore and thats max time frame - if you cant afford that time you picked the wrong activity - go for afk trading or single missions which take less time to complete - capitals will take time to attack around - this is not a mistery and failing to take that into account won't be an arguement to make your life amgically easier - it is very simple to avoid such complications and failure to do so leis entirely with those who are affected by it!

3.I know of no such clan actively patrolling in any nation - screening and reacting to threats yes but not actively wasting time running circles around their capital - I suppose if tehre could be a reward system worked out this would be nice to ahve but invisible fleets from yesterday would still render half of that useless/force it into reaction instead of interception.

4. It is true on the open seas this is a rather unnecessarily hazardous endevaour for the gankers but close to land it cannot be expected that no one gives a shit to be frank.

--> it remains however that a fleet of 22 french ships cant claim to not be able to fight their way out of anything - claiming to desire PvP and then avoiding all PvP that inherits any kind of risk is a mere laughing matter at this point and shows the lack of integrety of French captains.

 

2. Saying that people should only do PvP if they have guaranteed 3 hours to spare is just ridiculous. And the devs have clearly stated on multiple occasions that the ability to log off or take a break after a long battle is necessary. That people use the battle results screen to hide from revenge fleets is a consequence of the revenge fleets and their ability to use GPS and voice communication to organise.

3. The point of patrolling around capital waters is to make slipping past with a gank fleet more difficult. And just because you don't know of it...

4. If you couldn't catch a big french fleet in the open seas, that is your mistake for not getting to the first battle in time, and then for wasting your time waiting at the spot of the battle.

And I only have your word regarding the numbers, and those are only ship counts, not BR counts. I do not know if the battle would have been fair, and neither would they have as they couldn't know what fleet was waiting for them outside. But if you're talking about a specific fleet "avoiding PvP" that is a completely separate issue from your talks in the OP about a tribunal and about game mechanics. You can try to make a gentlemen's agreement for people not to wait in battle screen specifically to avoid a fight, but then revenge fleets should also be outlawed equally or limited in relative size. 

 

 

I fail to see any of you bringing forward any argument (outside of high seas reinforcements/revenge fleet being weird I will acknowledge that) that would speak in favour of allowing such a mechanic/tactic. 

As a tactic I do not favour it, but with the revenge fleets it is a necessary evil. As a mechanic it has been clearly and repeatedly laid out why it is necessary to keep the battle result screen as it is.

 

easymode 

claiming only your own advantage in every scenario

Hahaha. I can't believe I'm hearing these things from a Great-easymode-Britain player.

 

 

I can merely ask that you not use this exploit whether you consider it as such or not so we can all have a good time actually playing instead of wasting our mutual time.

My primary playstyle is Port Battles. I have never been in a gank fleet and I haven't sailed around Kingston since Danmark-Norge held Port Morant months ago. You're talking about tribunals and changes to mechanics which will affect the game in a negative way with consequences far outside of a few gank fleets around Jamaica.

And considering that the last time brits whined about ganking outside Kingston it led to the end of tagging inside the green zone, this new whining about mechanics should not go unanswered.

 

_______________________________________________

 

What I would like to see, which the devs talked about when they first removed the AI reinforcements option, is artillery batteries/towers on land. So forts would be located along the shore in strategic locations, and tagging within sight of these would endanger you to come under fire from land artillery. And naturally forts near a nation's capital would be stronger and have longer range, so attacking a national near his capital would cause you to come under heavy fire from the shore. Danmark-Norge historically had multiple fortifications around St. Croix.

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I struggle to see us as easy mode but I suppose that is your opinion vs mine so that discussion won't lead anywhere.

 

There is more then one option for PvP not just ganking and even that can be done in better locations for a shorter time needed - a single battle will last up to 90 mins so that must be your minimum time available! - should you desire a quick retreat afterwards you must refrain from closing in too much to the big isle as counter fleets will appear otherwise. The time needed increases with the threat you face - simple to avoid lengthy engagements if youre willing to play mroe then jsut one playstyle/location.

 

Concerning TS use - you can use TS to find and close in on targets together a similar advantage persists on your side - I don't really see a major advantage here for any side. So this kinda coutnerbalances itself! Same for the coordinates.

 

[fleet consisted mainly of ingermans, connies, trincs,and 2 rattles - response of everything from rattle to 3rd rate - battle wouldve been good - just on a sidenote]

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I too have experienced this sort of exploit, as well as a member of our fleet who was ganked twice in an hour by the Danes. This sort of behavior goes against the core of the game, which is naval combat, I do not find the lack of sportsmanship on the side of those who use this exploit to get easy kills or captured ships and then logoff to avoid the reprisals waiting for them when they come out, to be any where near fair on those trying to enjoy the game.

 

I think that the devs should pull their fingers out and fix this issue so that players who play the game the way it's meant to be played can enjoy without worrying that a random group of shit sticks will appear out of now where and gank them and suffer no consequences for it. The end battle screen should only be their for a minute or two and the players are automatically kicked back into open world, also players should not be allowed to log off in that screen, if they do a penalty must be given to ensure that this doesn't happen or make it so that they have to leave first and then log off if not in combat.

 

I'm sick of sailing out to do a mission and loosing a durability to ass hats who can't play the game fairly, it's not right and it's sure as shit not going to be tolerated by your players. And if you want to stop it completely then just make it so that if they do logoff during the end battle screen they loose their ship completely as punishment for using a mechanic to openly gank players, Also the issue can also lead to the second issue I have with this exploit, and that is the fact that those player loose very goddam little when they do it, but the players who loose ships and crew have to pay a lot of money they earned, rather than using an exploit for to buy a ship and then pay the F****d up prices for crew to man them.

 

You need to fix your game or your player base is going to tell you sorry, good bye, screw you. We didn't pay money to progress slowly, and have to pay stupid amounts of money that takes us time to get in game for it to be used replacing lost ships and crew, mods and equipment. Please sort it out for god sake, this is game breaking and annoying for everyone. 

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The word 'exploit' is simply flat out wrong here and tarnishes the argument, it isn't an exploit in the same way that setting PB timers that suck for the enemy is not an exploit.

It is using the game as designed, as has been stated several time by admin.

Maybe there are better ways to do it, and I'd be behind any sensible proposal but any change would need to take into account that NA is very time consuming as it is, and it is still a game, some people seem to forget this sometimes.

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Funny, brits teached me the technic, by doing it repeatedly in front of our capital, when I was starting again few months later :) (still remembering the names of the well known British admirals doing it by the way.... Names starting with HMS... )

Back then it did not seem to be a problem for the British player base :)

On a more serious side : you cannot force player to not leave the game sometime, especially if you designed a game where travel time can be counted in hour. If I know I cannot leave a game in time to go to bed, well, I will stop.... And if I start playing after dinner at 9pm, knowing I will be in fight area around 10pm, and leaving at 11pm to go to port, we'll I will stop also : 2 hours of nothing, for 1 hour of battle (not even sure of it) I play to actually play, not wait...

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On a more serious side : you cannot force player to not leave the game sometime, especially if you designed a game where travel time can be counted in hour. If I know I cannot leave a game in time to go to bed, well, I will stop.... And if I start playing after dinner at 9pm, knowing I will be in fight area around 10pm, and leaving at 11pm to go to port, we'll I will stop also : 2 hours of nothing, for 1 hour of battle (not even sure of it) I play to actually play, not wait...

 

Highlighted the keyword here, sometimes, yes i agree, not at each encounter when it becomes an even fight and not a 300% guaranteed win like some will like them pvp matches to be only, and hiding as soon ad the odds become 50-50 or even more for them side.

 

Adding a cooldown timer on the number of times you are able to logout in the battle screen per day will allow players to leave when they need it for real life stuff, cooldown needs to be long so the legitimate leavings are fair but those leaving only to avoid a fight when it becomes not a guaranteed win could not abuse this, they could use it once and hide for 1h30 , then leave to enter the OW and the next time if caught they could not stay and hide and will be automatically pushed in the OW after 15-20 ( the time to still take a pause ) , one logout or " hidding" allowed each 5-6 hours in battle screen result will be enough to allow legitimate use of this and prevent the constant abuses of players wanting to engage in fights only if they have a guaranteed win while avoiding with this broken mechanic any fights that are not guaranteed as 100% to be a win for them, even when there is odds to just loose a couple of ship in them attacking fleets vs a still outnumbered enemy that can fight and will only be able to at best focus on one or two ships and take them down before being themselves eliminated ...

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Indeed kanay, elegant solution, which could solve the problem.

15 minutes before you are forced to exit battle screen, and possibility to exit in combat result once per day or once every 2h

.... Problem : if the player wishing to hide won the fight (gankers for example) he will just wait in battle rather than combat result :)

So need for a timer forcing exit battle when it is over ...

Which bring the issue : sailing for fun, teaching new guys manual sailing etc... In a trader battle and letting the trader escape to have 1h of free sailing, will not be possible anymore.

EDIT :

For me most, if not all balance problem regarding timer, taging, ganking are deeply related or caused by time compression, and having 2 différents units of time overlapping. After a lot of thoughts, time compression is the core of almost every problem the open world have.

But map is way too large to allow a on en for one time representation.

Even if I love the OW, I strongly belive 4-6 smaller maps, linked by "Teleport portals" (I really hate saying those words belive me) and a 1/1 time representation would actually solve most of the game problems regarding PVP in OW

Edited by Sire Trinkof

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Well you could add this rule only to fights where there is real players on each side, true pvp, and not apply it when one side had AI only, i do spend lot of time in " fake " AI battles testing speeds vs loadouts etc so yeah this needs to be .

 

 

Another thing possible will be to let the players on the winning side sail in battle instance and make them spawn where they exit in the battle instance, the speeds are slow in battle, it takes a lot of time to travel and will favor the guys who won the battle that will exit the battle not where they started it but where they finished it, they will have to sail for a while with the low speeds of battle instances, kinda work for it instead of just hiding afk , enemies will still have a clue of where he's gone as winds in battle instances is rather fixed but you could take time and trick the enemies spawning now where they expect you to be then escape, i won't mind seeing players having won a fight able to do this, it's something different than just exit a battle and wait afk or select the battles you want to fight at will.

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that means nothing! - big nation might mean strong forces can assemble but it also emans 4 antions are cosntantly ganking around our shore in full force and we fight on several fronts - pirates are the real easy mode due to their exploit ability (attack one another to hide fleets near ports etc) - if you truly belive this nation to be easy mode I invite you to spend 2 weeks amidst our ranks and fight on all fronts and never get to explore the map ;)

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The word 'exploit' is simply flat out wrong here and tarnishes the argument, it isn't an exploit in the same way that setting PB timers that suck for the enemy is not an exploit.

It is using the game as designed, as has been stated several time by admin.

Maybe there are better ways to do it, and I'd be behind any sensible proposal but any change would need to take into account that NA is very time consuming as it is, and it is still a game, some people seem to forget this sometimes.

I do consider it an exploit however I would say the problem here lies with the playerbase (surely of all nations) that come about using this - this leads to not being able to consider those who actually ahve to go as their exit is being misused!

Indeed kanay, elegant solution, which could solve the problem.

15 minutes before you are forced to exit battle screen, and possibility to exit in combat result once per day or once every 2h

.... Problem : if the player wishing to hide won the fight (gankers for example) he will just wait in battle rather than combat result :)

So need for a timer forcing exit battle when it is over ...

Which bring the issue : sailing for fun, teaching new guys manual sailing etc... In a trader battle and letting the trader escape to have 1h of free sailing, will not be possible anymore.

EDIT :

For me most, if not all balance problem regarding timer, taging, ganking are deeply related or caused by time compression, and having 2 différents units of time overlapping. After a lot of thoughts, time compression is the core of almost every problem the open world have.

But map is way too large to allow a on en for one time representation.

Even if I love the OW, I strongly belive 4-6 smaller maps, linked by "Teleport portals" (I really hate saying those words belive me) and a 1/1 time representation would actually solve most of the game problems regarding PVP in OW

there already is - as far as I know you will be kicked out of the battle itself after 5 or 10mins and end up in the result screen - sadly thats where everyone then stays

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2. That's 3 hours, plus the time it takes to sail to and from. And unlike every other nation it takes a lot of time to sail to the vicinity of Kingston, because there is no free town close to Jamaica. (I'll la Vache + Cayman Brac approx 15min )

3. I know of several clans where one of their collaborative objectives is patrolling around their nations' capitals. It can successfully make ganking in the area more difficult. The issue is the use of a game mechanic which frustrates the very initiative of counter measures.

4. The equivalent of this is that any captain sighting an enemy ganking fleet in open waters, or being targeted by such a fleet, can call out on Teamspeak or in nation chat. And ships that are already ready to set sail, or sailing within visible range can come to his aid. Spending 20-or indeed 90-minutes gathering a revenge fleet to wait out at the GPS-coordinates has absolutely nothing to do with it. By the time these ships are gathered, the battling ships will have chased each other far away from the spot where the battle were initiated, and usually the battle would be over and the privateers long gone. However due to the instance system revenge fleets are possible, but then again so is waiting in battle result screen.

 

It's nations' fault (including my own) not being organised enough to reach the spot of a battle before the battle closing. Sail together or die alone! To a certain extend you are right but again this does not change the issue which is being discussed

 

This issue will not and cannot be solved by players (from ALL nations) themselves as they are and remain the weak link. In the end its game mechanics deciding the outcome of many actions, and this one is included. From what I have read this is the issue - it's not about who can claim superior decorum in battle. Over time it has been proven that the latter is pointless. 

Edited by Gooneybird

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I'm used to gank into enemy water and near their capitals, and now it happens quite often that, as soon as our battle flag is seen, enemy arranges large forces to hunt us. (fun part of the game).

Indeed, it happened I uses this "exploit", especially at 2am, but I would like to see a solution. 

 

My proposal could be:

 

- do not limit time to enter a battle by 2 minutes. Back to 5 (or a fair value), but the later you join the far you are from the battle.

 

- if the battle is within a certain distance from a town, the battle swords do not disappear for the ships (of the nation) of that town (people from town sees the battle)

 

- exiting from battle is fully positional, so exiting ships can position themselves where they want and without notice to external players. (can help in avoiding fleets outside)

 

- after battle is over, you have 5 minutes. After that, you will be positioned in the OW again, at the position you have inside the battle. 

 

 

 

Imho, ganking near enemy capitals have to be risky enough, and I tell this playing mostly in attack than in defence. 

just my 2 cents.

 

 

This makes harder (but not impossible) for people to gank near enemy capitals. This action have to be full of risk. 

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Imho, ganking near enemy capitals have to be risky enough, and I tell this playing mostly in attack than in defence. 

just my 2 cents.

This makes harder (but not impossible) for people to gank near enemy capitals. This action have to be full of risk. 

This is a position I can fully respect especially due to you actually putting yourself at risk here. And I do understand the problem with 2am timers but people's bad behaviour in exploiting a mechanic meant for such a scenario leaves a hard playing field to still take care of those who actually HAVE TO log off. In the end it reamins ahrd to limit mechanics to those who actually require them and skillless and incompetent captains will continue to rely on such tactics which in turn will mean they won't improve and continue to do so.

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that means nothing! - big nation might mean strong forces can assemble but it also emans 4 antions are cosntantly ganking around our shore in full force and we fight on several fronts - pirates are the real easy mode due to their exploit ability (attack one another to hide fleets near ports etc) - if you truly belive this nation to be easy mode I invite you to spend 2 weeks amidst our ranks and fight on all fronts and never get to explore the map ;)

You still get to see way more of the map than I do as a Dane. Stop playing the victim. Brits = easymode all the way.

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You still get to see way more of the map than I do as a Dane. Stop playing the victim. Brits = easymode all the way.

go out and sail -enjoy the world- considering we ahve to navigate past 8 ganking fleets just to reach port morant at 2pm already the rest of the map is actually easier to navigate then our home waters ;) - i don't believe any nation is entirely given an easy mode - small emans you struggl to oppose a fleet attacking, big means lots of fleets want you dead - in the end the pirates get their exploits but even then they face our/and others ships regularly so we all have to fight to enjoy our seas ;)

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it will probably be ruled into illegality. Because if Brits use it in front of Christiansted: It's a mechanic. If others use it against Brits: OMG EXPLOIT!!!

Brits bias is real. It has been real for 6 months.

 

Edit: Proof:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15171-serious-exploit-again/ (An entire assault fleet hidden by brits by logging off! oh no!)

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13542-brits-use-friendly-surrender-exploit/

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13708-brits-exploiting-green-on-green-to-avoid-capturing/

(just a couple of examples)

Edited by Kloothommel

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it will probably be ruled into illegality. Because if Brits use it in front of Christiansted: It's a mechanic. If others use it against Brits: OMG EXPLOIT!!!

Brits bias is real. It has been real for 6 months.

 

Edit: Proof:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15171-serious-exploit-again/ (An entire assault fleet hidden by brits by logging off! oh no!)

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13542-brits-use-friendly-surrender-exploit/

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13708-brits-exploiting-green-on-green-to-avoid-capturing/

(just a couple of examples)

I condemn this behaviour from any kind of side! I have never denied this - I believe it usually happens less within the British antion as we fight a lot mroe port battles isntead of ganking fleets but I am sure black sheeps are to be found everywhere! I personally ahve never done this and will continue to not do it! I merely ask teh same of everybody else.

 

British Bias is a mere nonsense. If you truly beleive so then I'd like to remind you that about 75% of the ships ingame and a majority of teh map are ruled by GB - if you struggle with the historical background and timeframe in which britain was a powerful antion and therefore also ahs the majority of the palyerbase I must say you might be playing the wrong game! - denmark had nothing much more then the virgin islands so you ahve already achieved a lot in this game - do not become delusional.

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Woah ! New brit technique today :) 

Spieesss .... two well known players from previously GB, then pirates, showed up as french today. The pirates told us great tails about those two captains, how they Pirates lost a port, and some fleets because of them. It seemed they trusted the wrong scouts :) 

and a nice Brit fleet  arrived today at FR, then just when the battle ended, those 2 guys show up in a freshly reedeemed bucentaure, being in French nation this time , check outside to see the revenge fleet we had, tun around us, then leave .... 

And guess what ? The fleet inside the battle, who had a rattlesnake and a renommée did not even sent a scout ship outside the battle ;) Strange no ?

I guess Brit player should make an official complaint ASAP ... Is it worst than battlescreen camping ? Leaving you decide on this

(I am seriously pissed off to see that in an ALPHA stage of a game, people actually want sobadly to make the game worst .... Awesome)

Edited by Sire Trinkof
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Woah ! New brit technique today :) 

Spyyysss .... two well known players from previously GB, then pirates, showed up as french today. The pirates told us great tails about those two captains, how they Pirates lost a port, and some fleets because of them. It seemed they trusted the wrong scouts :) 

and a nice Brit fleet  arrived today at FR, then just when the battle ended, those 2 guys show up in a freshly reedeemed bucentaure, being in French nation this time , check outside to see the revenge fleet we had, tun around us, then leave .... 

And guess what ? The fleet inside the battle, who had a rattlesnake and a renommée did not even sent a scout ship outside the battle ;) Strange no ?

I guess Brit player should make an official complaint ASAP ... Is it worst than battlescreen camping ? Leaving you decide on this

(I am seriously pissed off to see that in an ALPHA stage of a game, people actually want sobadly to make the game worst .... Awesome)

 

Anything to undermine their enemies so they can walk triumphantly into empty ports.

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Anything to undermine their enemies so they can walk triumphantly into empty ports.

Yes, OP is not completly wrong, most of nations use some kind of exploit sometime .... But I have the strange feeling taht we are always one exploit behind the Brits .... It is a little bit like doping in "Tour de France" .... 

Edited by Sire Trinkof
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Concerning TS use - you can use TS to find and close in on targets together a similar advantage persists on your side - I don't really see a major advantage here for any side. So this kinda coutnerbalances itself! Same for the coordinates.

The great difference here is that you have up to 90 minutes to gather at a static location using Teamspeak. Besides a small fleet of ships would have been able to communicate with each other at short distances using semaphores. So ships already sailing together being able to communicate is completely realistic, while a ship out at sea telephoning home to Kingston and offering GPS location and accurate numbers of enemies is completely unrealistic.

 

 

I'm sick of sailing out to do a mission and loosing a durability to ass hats who can't play the game fairly, it's not right and it's sure as shit not going to be tolerated by your players. 

Sorry, but the PvE-server is that way ===>

 

 

that means nothing! - big nation might mean strong forces can assemble but it also emans 4 antions are cosntantly ganking around our shore in full force and we fight on several fronts - pirates are the real easy mode due to their exploit ability (attack one another to hide fleets near ports etc) - if you truly belive this nation to be easy mode I invite you to spend 2 weeks amidst our ranks and fight on all fronts and never get to explore the map  ;)

Only 4 nations? How cute!

Every single nation in-game, except our allies France, have gank squads stationed in Vieques, a free town which is almost on top of our green zone. 

Great Britain has the largest population of any nation by far, able to fight simultaneously on multiple fronts. The geography of Danmark-Norge has been formed through months of hard work by only a handful of RvR-players. And still, every time the brits start to loose the mechanics or rules are changed in their favour. 

Your capital is well protected, further away from a free town than any other nation. 

 

Don't get me wrong though, I prefer the challenge. But I get annoyed when Brits start whining and screaming for even more of an advantage.

 

 

 

Anolytic, on 31 Jul 2016 - 8:50 PM, said:snapback.png

2. That's 3 hours, plus the time it takes to sail to and from. And unlike every other nation it takes a lot of time to sail to the vicinity of Kingston, because there is no free town close to Jamaica.(I'll la Vache + Cayman Brac approx 15min )

3. I know of several clans where one of their collaborative objectives is patrolling around their nations' capitals. It can successfully make ganking in the area more difficult. The issue is the use of a game mechanic which frustrates the very initiative of counter measures.

4. The equivalent of this is that any captain sighting an enemy ganking fleet in open waters, or being targeted by such a fleet, can call out on Teamspeak or in nation chat. And ships that are already ready to set sail, or sailing within visible range can come to his aid. Spending 20-or indeed 90-minutes gathering a revenge fleet to wait out at the GPS-coordinates has absolutely nothing to do with it. By the time these ships are gathered, the battling ships will have chased each other far away from the spot where the battle were initiated, and usually the battle would be over and the privateers long gone. However due to the instance system revenge fleets are possible, but then again so is waiting in battle result screen.

 

It's nations' fault (including my own) not being organised enough to reach the spot of a battle before the battle closing. Sail together or die alone! To a certain extend you are right but again this does not change the issue which is being discussed

This issue will not and cannot be solved by players (from ALL nations) themselves as they are and remain the weak link. In the end its game mechanics deciding the outcome of many actions, and this one is included. From what I have read this is the issue - it's not about who can claim superior decorum in battle. Over time it has been proven that the latter is pointless. 

2. At 19 knots it would take at least 22-25 min to get close to Kingston from Ile-a-Vache, at the same speed it takes 4 min to get to Christiansted from Vieques.

 

3. If by countermeasures you mean revenge fleets, then they are as already stated extremely gamey and should not be favoured. However I too would like to see the end of waiting in BR screen for no other purpose than to avoid what's waiting outside. This should be achieved by making escape easier and forcing revenge fleets to spread out and have to actually patrol. This would simulate a raised alertness around a capital's waters after a privateer incursion. Introducing a semi-random drop out point for reentry to the OW after a battle (though of course keeping all ships of one side together and reentering at the same spot) would possibly be the way to go. 

As for making ganking in capital waters more dangerous, I have already proposed land artillery as a better alternative than catering to the gamey teleport revenge fleets.

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it will probably be ruled into illegality. Because if Brits use it in front of Christiansted: It's a mechanic. If others use it against Brits: OMG EXPLOIT!!!

Brits bias is real. It has been real for 6 months.

 

Edit: Proof:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15171-serious-exploit-again/ (An entire assault fleet hidden by brits by logging off! oh no!)

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13542-brits-use-friendly-surrender-exploit/

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13708-brits-exploiting-green-on-green-to-avoid-capturing/

(just a couple of examples)

 

The first one was debunked as far as I know. The brits simply approached from a port the spanish didn't expected. There were several threads about it.

 

The other examples and the ones mentionend in this thread shows us that the main problem will always be the players and their behaviour. And this is a fact in almost all games. You can't really change that. You have to change the humans by themselves for that :D. I believe we just have to live with some things and try to evade it (leave your capitals guys).

Edited by Cecil Selous

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The first one was debunked as far as I know. The brits simply approached from a port the spanish didn't expected. There were several threads about it.

 

The other examples and the ones mentionend in this thread shows us that the main problem will always be the players and their behaviour. And this is a fact in almost all games. You can't really change that. You have to change the humans by themselves for that :D. I believe we just have to live with some things and try to evade it (leave your capitals guys).

 

And this is why there is ganking :)

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