Suggestion to stop counter tagging

[mirror452]

I see a problem with Counter tagging. Counter tagging is used by people who don't want to get caught. It works in the way that you tag the hunter as soon as possible (So that you spawn as far away as possible in the battle instance).
This makes it very hard and time consuming, and in many cases even impossible to catch a trader. So here is my suggestion.

 

Introduce a second tag radius.

 

The first radius is as big as currently in game, however it is only possible to tag people in front of you. Tagging people who are behind you is impossible. The exact angles can be discussed, but I think a 100° tag cone in front of you is a good idea.

 

The second radius would be much smaller. In this radius there is no tag timer, the tag is immediately. This will make it impossible to counter the tag by making the enemy overshoot you when sailing directly towards him.

 

 

EDIT: Maybe a cone is not the best idea, since it should also be possible to tag people sideways. So I added a second (very quickly made) picture to demonstrate what would maybe work a bit better. Tag is interrupted if tagged player leaves the blue area.

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by mirror452

[Hethwill]

It is worth testing.

 

Discussion about it going on http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12939-player-merchant-ships-counter-tag/

[mirror452]

Oh, I missed that topic. Will make the same suggestion there, and this thread can be closed by moderators if they think it is better to have it in the general discussion in the other thread or left open if they want a discussion on this particular proposal

[Quineloe]

Given how often admin has stated counter tagging to be a valid mechanic...

[mirror452]

Given how often admin has stated counter tagging to be a valid mechanic...

 

Well... In real life, if a ship is slower than another, the faster will catch up. In the game, you counter tag the much faster ship in OW, spawn outside of cannon range, let the timer run out and leave the battle instance. Then you are invisible for 1 minute. If the enemy is, miraculously, still on your track, rinse and repeat. It's frustrating and a waste of time. And on top of that, not realistic at all. I understand that there have to be game mechanics, but let us give our best to make the game mechanics reflect things how they would be in real life sea combat. After all we are here to play with ships, not with game mechanics.

[Mored]

The problem is that in real mechanics a ship turned if it identified a enemey vessel (what was long before in reach of a cannon) Sometimes it tooks days until the hunting ship catches his victim.

I dont like that idea, i like the cat vs mice where the mice is able to escape.

[mirror452]

The problem is that in real mechanics a ship turned if it identified a enemey vessel (what was long before in reach of a cannon) Sometimes it tooks days until the hunting ship catches his victim.

I dont like that idea, i like the cat vs mice where the mice is able to escape.

 

You have days of hunting, in the OW it justseems like less because time is compressed.

Counter tagging allows to practice pirate craft deep into enemy territory. Prohibit the use of this useful tactic in my opinion,will completely kill such actions. I strongly disagree with your idea mirror.

 

How does it crush pirating? It actually helps real pirating.

[mirror452]

If you are a pirate who is outnumbered you are either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or your ship is too slow.

That being said, ships that join the battle later should spawn further away. I think it already is like that, but I am not sure if it cannot be tweaked a bit further.

[mirror452]

And does this particular game mechanic have any resemblance in real life?

As I said, if you are greatly outnumbered it's your own fault for being at the wrong place in the wrong time, and you SHOULD pay for it. It's called tactical decisions.

Edited April 11, 2016 by mirror452

[Carljcharles]

Agree with Mirror about the correct approach to pirating.  On PvP3 pirates try raiding right outside PR then were moaning when lots of British ships piled in to assist and kill the pirate. Pirates should be acting like pirates and picking off lone slower traders in quiet sea lanes, or jumping traders from out of secluded bays.

 

The counter tagging is a problem when used/combined with the other Mechanics. Bottom line is it is far to easy for a slower ship to escape a faster one simply by using game mechanics, which bears no resemblance to common sense. Therefore at least one of the mechanics in play here needs to be adjusted or changed.

 

I don't see that this principle can really be argued against. The NA machanics just need adjusting to better represent the position.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Carljcharles

[mirror452]

Don't get me wrong. I am mostly a trader, I benefit from this tactic. But I can see further than my own benefit, and I see that this game mechanic has nothing to do with what this game is about... ship combat.

To make it easier for you to understand: If you have too many pursuers, it means that you stayed in the same area for too long. Hunt in less populated areas, and change the area of your operations often. Make your pursuers search you in the wrong place and ruin their day by simply ot being there anymore.

 

About the real life days thingy... It already takes days to hunt a ship in OW. OW days. Because time is compressed in OW. So this argument is invalid.

 

There are ways [to escape]. Either being faster, or being slower and still managing to get in a safe port, or being upwind from the enemy and thus make the chase so time consuming that he will give up even though he is faster, or sailing through shallower water than your opponent can handle (although this is a rare opportunity), or... if you know that you will sail through dangerous water... Bring an escort. All things that have resemblance in real life, while "tagging skill" doesn't have any resemblance in real life ship combat.

 

About the whole "being faster"... Many ships are faster than a spcific other ship on paper, but on certain angles they are actually slower than the presumably "slower" ship. Learn your angles, work with the wind. Like in real life.

 

 

And about "It's called pirating"... Even pirates are needed to think about their tactics. No easy game mechanic exploits for anyone please.

Edited April 11, 2016 by mirror452

[mirror452]

Pursiut crew which thinks will eventually catch running ship by catching it into the battle and setting proxy ships around it. Now everybody has equal  chances of winning.

 

I am not quite sure if I get what you mean, but if you are talking about what I think you are talking about... Setting up a perimeter around the battle location to catch the ship when it leaves the battle... This is not resembled in real life either, and can be easily countered by just waiting in the battle end screen for a few minutes anyway. Like, don't leave the battle end screen and use the time for washing dishes, while wasting the time of your enemies. Sorry, this is also a game mechanic I do not agree with.

 

It's really easy. Make the ingame chase as close to a real life chase as possible, and see more real life like tactics to be used. In the end this means better tactics, better immersion, and a better game that has more to do with ships and sailing skills as well as positioning skills than with... "tagging skills".

[Roche Brasiliano]

Why stoping counter tag?

 

Admin posted today:

 

Attack rules and ROE will be reworked. It has some legacy problems that needs addressing

After land patch hits we will update it fixing the holes in the system

 

The patch with land at battles will solve great part of that matters, because the smarter player can use the land and wind in his favor and even if the prey counter tag, a hunter can have great sucess to push the oponent to a corner at land.

 

Pls, forgive my bad english.

Edited April 11, 2016 by wollef

[maturin]

If there is no counter-tagging, then all battles need to start at the limit of gun range, with exit timers adjusted accordingly. Anything else is ridiculous and unfair.

 

...of course, that will also result in many long chases.

 

What we have now is a tolerably decent balance.

[Slamz]

And does this particular game mechanic have any resemblance in real life?

 

In real life, the pursers do not get instant communication via TeamSpeak to come surround your battle or converge on you from various points on the map.

 

We have to be able to counter gang-ups and counter-tagging is one of the few ways to do it.

 

 

Counter-tagging is already pretty limited.

 

* Cannot counter-tag if you lack the BR to hit someone (a solo 3rd rate can't counter-tag a group of six 3rd rates and a trader can't counter-tag much of anything).

* Usually can't counter-tag enemies approaching from the front or side because 20 seconds is enough time for them to get on top of you anyway.

 

I don't think it's a problem. Rarely have I been prevented from hitting someone due to a counter-tag.

 

 

Also, land in battles will really change the nature of fleeing. Counter-tag but he's facing land = he's not getting away.

[mirror452]

Land in battles will solve some of the issues, but not all. An open sea chase would still be the same.

 

 

If there is no counter-tagging, then all battles need to start at the limit of gun range, with exit timers adjusted accordingly. Anything else is ridiculous and unfair.

 

...of course, that will also result in many long chases.

 

What we have now is a tolerably decent balance.

 

Read my proposal again, please. It is already limiting the minimum attack range in shape of the secondary immediate tag circle.

Of course the actual size of this secondary circle has to be adjusted accordingly.

 

EDIT: But I got an idea... Will update my proposal in a second. Updated.

Edited April 11, 2016 by mirror452

[Galileus]

There is a nice tutorial on how to counter the counter-tag. It's a nice meta game of cat and mouse. It's honestly beautiful.

 

I vote NO for boring "faster ship wins" scenarios. Deep strikes are the most fun and adrenaline-pumping things in this game.

[mirror452]

It's a nice meta game of cat and mouse.

 

But it doesn't have anything to do with realism... I know that we have to abandon realism in some issues to make the game playable, however this is not such a case in my opinion. Removing counter tag would force players to rely on different, more realistic tactics to avoid being caught. It would make people think about where to position themselves on the map.

In fact if your ships speeds are relatively similar, you can still have adrenaline filled chases at sea, trying to reach the next safe harbour or a friendly fleet while you see your hunter catching up to you with every minute.

If speeds are not similar... Well, then it's not a question, the faster ship will and should without any question catch up. And then it is about combat strength, and not running anymore. As I said, kind of like in real life.

 

I understand that some people enjoy this meta game, but it is what it is. Unrealistic, immersion breaking, with no resemblance in real life.

 

And as I also said, it's not as simple as "faster ship wins". As the one who is chased you have all the initiative. You can choose your route, your positioning, the area where you want to sail without an escort, you can choose the angle of the wind where you want to run. You can sail along a coastline with the wind blowing towards the land and risk getting caught, or you can wait for a better wind that will give you options for running away.

Edited April 11, 2016 by mirror452

[Galileus]

In fact if your ships speeds are relatively similar, you can still have adrenaline filled chases at sea, trying to reach the next safe harbour or a friendly fleet while you see your hunter catching up to you with every minute.

 

(...)

 

I understand that some people enjoy this meta game, but it is what it is. Unrealistic, immersion breaking, with no resemblance in real life.

 

I'm sorry, we need to have different definitions of adrenaline pumping. By adrenaline pumping I mean the situation in which you can and need to actively participate in the chase (as is with counter and counter-counter tagging game). I do not find going AFK for 15 minutes after setting course adrenaline pumping. But maybe it's just me.

 

You prefer it that way? Is fine. Just please, don't pretend it's "adrenaline pumping".

 

As for immersion... I have no problems with that, mate. The fact I take part in a chase is immersive enough for me - simply because I enjoy it. No matter how realistic you would like to do it, as soon as you take the drama, challenge and action out of it, I will be immersed away in split second. Not because it becomes less realistic - but because in this case it's hard to get immersed in realism.

 

Immersion is not equal to realism. Plenty of people get immersed in fiction and fantasy. Plenty of people get bored the hell out in history lessons. Ain't white and black no more, sonny!

[mirror452]

Well, that's why this part of the forum is called "suggestions"
After all, it's merely this. A suggestion, coupled with my personal opinion on it. I personally enjoy tactical decisions a lot more than an adrenaline pumping minigame, and I would like to see the quality of the tactical decisions and the thinking we make before even setting course, before even getting chased, to be properly reflected in the game. That also means that if I make a bad tactical decision, if I am in a spot where I should not be, if I don't bring enough friends or simply the wrong ship, I want to be punished for it. At the moment I can get away with making all the wrong tactical decisions because in the end it only counts how good I am in the tagging minigame.

[Vllad]

I don't think this is a very wise suggestion.

 

Removing the ability of anyone to attack can only lead to bad things. Basically what this thread is about is just allowing the better/faster/bigger ship to start a fight.

 

That is just silly.

[mirror452]

I don't think this is a very wise suggestion.

 

Removing the ability of anyone to attack can only lead to bad things. Basically what this thread is about is just allowing the better/faster/bigger ship to start a fight.

 

That is just silly.

 

That's not true. If your ship is slower you can still start a fight if you catch your enemy under the wrong wind angle, or if you manage to catch them when the wind forces them on the land. In the Open Sea, yes, the faster ship will have the initiative, but what exactly is wrong with that? In fact with my proposal the attack and tagging mechanics don't change at all except that you cannot attack a ship that is following you.

[Neptune]

This needs to be put in-game, counter tagging is total crap. I've found players using it to avoid PvP even when they have outnumberd my group. The other day, it was me in a connie and a trinco vs 2 trincos, 2 pirate frigs and a bellepoulle and the trinco defensive tagged nw of la tortue. Like I get the need to have this for escaping ganks, but I don't know if devs ever seen this coming. Now people use it to avoid any PvP at all. It's frustrating and annoying.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Acadian44

[Galileus]

Now people use it to avoid any PvP at all. It's frustrating and annoying.

 

As is unavoidable PvP.

[Neptune]

As is unavoidable PvP.

 

That's why they have a PVE server.