So how long until the pirates take over and what will happen to the game when they do?

[Quineloe]

The barbary pirates however weren't comparable to Caribbean pirates, as they operated openly from ports held by the proper barbary states of Tunis, Tripolis and Algiers.

[Henrik]

Cannot wait for the all consuming wipe after which we all start over yet again!

[Porpoise]

I like the point that admin stated, but we need working diplomacy tools to forge aliances and non agression pacts. How this should be done, I do not know. Who will be responsible for that, who will decide which nation is enemy and which one is ally. Probably the diplomacy will be still held on the forums and available (understandable) to only few guys who attend them. 

[Mrdoomed]

It took Europeans 350 years to destroy Barbary Pirates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Corsairs captured thousands of ships and repeatedly raided coastal towns. As a result, residents abandoned their former villages of long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy. The raids were such a problem that coastal settlements were seldom undertaken until the 19th century. Barbary pirates raided towns across Europe up to Iceland and Ireland.

In 1662, England made the first treaty with a Barbary pirates ruler. This set the pattern for similar treaties by other European nations trading in the Mediterranean. Typically, a Barbary peace treaty required a nation to pay tribute to the pirate ruler, who would then call off attacks on the nation's ships. Tribute usually took the form of a large payment of money plus annual payments. The annual payments might be cash, military supplies, or expensive presents for the ruler. A particular treaty might also include ransom money for the release of a nation's citizens held captive by the Barbary country.

United States even paid tributes to pirates

The U.S. Pays Tribute

After finding American commerce in the Mediterranean had almost stopped due to the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special commission, consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the negotiations. The following year, Congress authorized a maximum of $80,000 to spend on tribute treaties with all the Barbary Pirate States.

In 1787, the United States signed a tribute treaty with Morocco. This proved to be a reasonable treaty, costing the United States a one-time only tribute of about $20,000. Except for a few brief disagreements, Morocco never again harassed American shipping.

Algiers, the most powerful of the Barbary Pirates States, was a different story. In the summer of 1785, pirates from Algiers captured two American merchant ships and held the 21 men aboard them for ransom. The United States offered $4,200 for the captives. The ruler of Algiers, called the dey, demanded nearly $60,000. The Americans refused, and negotiations dragged on for more than 10 years.

The two commissioners most involved in tribute treaty negotiations were John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Adams favored paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American commerce moving again in the Mediterranean. Jefferson disagreed. He saw no end to the demands for tribute. He wanted matters settled "through the medium of war" and proposed a league of trading nations to force the end of Barbary piracy.

In 1790, pirates from Algiers captured 11 American ships and more than 100 prisoners to add to those already held for ransom. This shocking news produced a serious debate in the newly formed U.S. Congress over the need to build a navy. But it took five years before Congress authorized the construction of six warships.

Finally, in 1796, the United States signed a peace treaty with Algiers. The United States agreed to pay $642,500 plus annual tribute of naval supplies and presents to the dey. In exchange, the dey promised to release of the American captives and protect American shipping. The United States had to borrow money to make the primary tribute payment.

After 1796 US paid another 160,000 us dollars in tributes and presents to pirates, and even had to borrow money to make the payments. In 1801 Pirate ruler canceled the agreements and requested more money. This time US refused and went to war with Barbary states.

Eventually....

The scope of corsair activity began to diminish as the more powerful European navies started to compel the Barbary States to make peace and cease attacking their shipping. However, the ships and coasts of Christian states without such effective protection continued to suffer until the early 19th century. Following the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna in 1814–15, European powers agreed upon the need to suppress the Barbary corsairs entirely and the threat was largely subdued. Occasional incidents occurred, including two Barbary wars between the United States of America and the Barbary States, until finally terminated by the French conquest of Algiers in 1830.

TLDR...

Barbary pirates were a dominant force in the Mediterranean for a very long time. Its not a-historical that Caribbean pirates could become such force given sandbox rules (where everything is in the hands of players).

I personally believe that European powers can agree upon the need to suppress the Pirates entirely and subdue the threat by means of force not by means of eloquent writing on forums. Alternatively nations can sign separate tribute agreements and pay pirates to leave them alone. I think this suppression is an interesting challenge for nations. Someone just have to take on this goal and get it done.

This surely can be done before the alliances/war and peace patch. In the future alliances/war and peace might change the landscape significantly.

The people in this forum do not even know the definition of the word pirate let alone grasp the concept of difference in pirates. Apparently all there knowledge comes from treasure islans and black sails and disney and the very idea of a pirate not acting just this way is beyond them.

Iddly enough they have no trouble ignoring that the nationals play NOTHING like the nationals of the carrebean.

[Ratline]

Admin, any chance on you giving us the numbers on how many have turned pirate (from an existing nation) vs how many have started out as pirate? Part of the perceived issue is not really the strength of the rats as such, which you address, but the fact that people believe significant numbers of players defect as soon as things get tough for their original nation. It's a mechanic that can only benefit the pirates and can't be reversed without incurring the loss of ships and gold (unless you have mates in other factions and exploit that).

[Mrdoomed]

Admin, any chance on you giving us the numbers on how many have turned pirate (from an existing nation) vs how many have started out as pirate? Part of the perceived issue is not really the strength of the rats as such, which you address, but the fact that people believe significant numbers of players defect as soon as things get tough for their original nation. It's a mechanic that can only benefit the pirates and can't be reversed without incurring the loss of ships and gold (unless you have mates in other factions and exploit that).

I know the people on pvp1 perceive this as a pirate problem but again i will say its a PEOPLE PROBLEM. The pirates in pvp2 had the exact opposite happen. We lost all our numbers to the nations and was reduced to ONE PORT for quite a while.

Only difference is we didnt come saying how unfair the nationals are.

Its a PEOPLE PROBLEM . Fix people and fix the problem.

Edited March 30, 2016 by maturin

[DarkFenix]

TLDR... 

Barbary pirates were a dominant force in the Mediterranean for a very long time. Its not a-historical that Caribbean pirates could become such force given sandbox rules (where everything is in the hands of players).

 

I personally believe that European powers can agree upon the need to suppress the Pirates entirely and subdue the threat by means of force not by means of eloquent writing on forums. Alternatively nations can sign separate tribute agreements and pay pirates to leave them alone. I think this suppression is an interesting challenge for nations. Someone just have to take on this goal and get it done.

 

This surely can be done before the alliances/war and peace patch. In the future alliances/war and peace might change the landscape significantly. 

 

Uh, have you actually taken a look at the situation on PvP 1 lately? The Pirates are essentially one and the same with the Danes courtesy of the large Russian player base. The Spanish and French take their orders from these Pirates too while the Swedes are in a forced peace with them. There aren't many people left to join forces against the Pirate problem and courtesy of the capital locations they're in no position to assist one another.

 

From my perspective, Pirate domination over the map isn't an interesting prospect, it's a game-breaking one. If it happens and the devs take the same head-in-the-sand attitude you're showing here, I'll just walk away without looking back, I think a lot of players will, either that or switch to Pirate too.

[Porpoise]

I know the people on pvp1 perceive this as a pirate problem but again i will say its a PEOPLE PROBLEM. The pirates in pvp2 had the exact opposite happen. We lost all our numbers to the nations and was reduced to ONE PORT for quite a while.

Only difference is we didnt come saying how unfair the nationals are.

Its a PEOPLE PROBLEM . Fix people and fix the problem.

Hello pot this is kettle. You crack me up.

 

This discussion is not about how to nerf pirates to stop them taking ports. This discussion is about how to make a pirate gameplay more adventurous, independent, dangerous and opportunistic IMO. I want an alternative for classic nation gameplay. We have 7 nations in game, why have 8?

Edited March 30, 2016 by Porpoise

[Billy Ruffin]

IMO most multiplayer games are doomed to end up the same way - regardless of time period. It's the way humans play as opposed to an AI opponent. It's all about perception of those that play. In our case it's sailing ships, but it may well as be spaceships, tanks or anything else that takes your fancy.

 

So, as much as I'd dearly love this game to be a specific naval sim for the Revolutionary/Napoleonic era (give or take a bit) sadly it may as well be played in space because the players' gameplay would be exactly the same.

 

And there's absolutely no point in anyone citing history as far as this game goes. The playing pieces are absolutely beautiful replicas of the period, but that's where the similarity ends.

 

Sad - but I reckon it's true.

[maturin]

*ahem*
 

The Barbary 'pirates' were the military arm of a legitimate, internationally recognized state. On shore they had a government, population base, public and religious institutions, economy, territory, social structure, diplomatic relations... They had people to grow them food, build their ships in shipyards.
 
Count the differences with Caribbean pirates. 
 
Done counting? Good, now let's bury this fallacy in a coffin with a stake through its heart.
 
'The Spartans practiced homosexuality, therefore the NYC pride parade shall consist entirely of hoplites stabbing the spectators.'

'Japanese kamikaze pilots practiced suicide bombings in WWII, therefore the Japanese faction in the game shall be represented by bearded, turbaned guerrillas living in caves,'

 

 

The Barbary States practiced piracy as a tactic. There were pirates in service of the Barbary States. And the only reason they were called pirates, as opposed to privateers (or a navy), is that the European countries wanted to smear them. Pirate here is not an objective label, it's a value judgment. 

 

Transplant the Barbary pirate ships to the Caribbean, away from the countries that support and sustain them, and see how long they last. About as long as the Swedish or Danish colonies would last without support and expertise from the powerful mother countries in Europe. (That's the problem with pointing fingers at the nationals: they have all the resources of European empires to back them up. For gameplay's sake we build the ships in the Caribbean, but in IRL they could just pop over from the Baltic.)

[admin]

IMO most multiplayer games are doomed to end up the same way - regardless of time period. It's the way humans play as opposed to an AI opponent. It's all about perception of those that play. In our case it's sailing ships, but it may well as be spaceships, tanks or anything else that takes your fancy.

 

So, as much as I'd dearly love this game to be a specific naval sim for the Revolutionary/Napoleonic era (give or take a bit) sadly it may as well be played in space because the players' gameplay would be exactly the same.

 

 

 

Its a sandbox problem. If pirates did not exist another nation would capture all ports from weaker nations. 

We are thinking about it now for the alliance/war/peace patch:)

[Mrdoomed]

The Barbary States practiced piracy as a tactic. There were pirates in service of the Barbary States. And the only reason they were called pirates, as opposed to privateers (or a navy), is that the European countries wanted to smear them. Pirate here is not an objective label, it's a value judgment.

Transplant the Barbary pirate ships to the Caribbean, away from the countries that support and sustain them, and see how long they last. About as long as the Swedish or Danish colonies would last without support and expertise from the powerful mother countries in Europe. (That's the problem with pointing fingers at the nationals: they have all the resources of European empires to back them up. For gameplay's sake we build the ships in the Caribbean, but in IRL they could just pop over from the Baltic.)

Can you look up the definition of the word pirate please? I dont see where it is location or motivation dependant.

Or are you saying its ok for a nation that kills Christians as a goal to use piracy as a way to expand an empire but its not ok if you dont like the crown or law to then use piracy to form a country?

Please explain i dont get it. It seems youre stuck on a label and not the defination and what can be done.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Mrdoomed

[maturin]

Can you look up the definition of the word pirate please? I dont see where it is location or motivation deoendent.

Don't waste my time.

 

We're talking about Caribbean pirates. The game is set in the 18th Century Caribbean, so I expected to see 18th Century Caribbean pirates.

 

If we're going to welcome every dictionary definition of 'pirate' into the game, then I can't wait to see all the Somalian RPG-gunners and Napster employees sailing around Mortimer Town.

 

At least the Brits will get to play as anthropomorphic English Muffins, out of fairness.

[Billy Ruffin]

At least the Brits will get to play as anthropomorphic English Muffins, out of fairness.

Ooooo - that's a new one. Never been referred to as one of those before! Better than being a bit of crumpet I hope? 

[Powderhorn]

At least the Brits will get to play as anthropomorphic English Muffins, out of fairness.

I'm a bit closer to a Doughboy than I'd like to be these days :'(

[Mrdoomed]

Don't waste my time.

We're talking about Caribbean pirates. The game is set in the 18th Century Caribbean, so I expected to see 18th Century Caribbean pirates.

If we're going to welcome every dictionary definition of 'pirate' into the game, then I can't wait to see all the Somalian RPG-gunners and Napster employees sailing around Mortimer Town.

At least the Brits will get to play as anthropomorphic English Muffins, out of fairness.

Thats the answer i figured i would get from you. Enjoy being always unhappy i dont have anything else for ya.

[akd]

It took Europeans 350 years to destroy Barbary Pirates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

 

Corsairs captured thousands of ships and repeatedly raided coastal towns. As a result, residents abandoned their former villages of long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy. The raids were such a problem that coastal settlements were seldom undertaken until the 19th century. Barbary pirates raided towns across Europe up to Iceland and Ireland.

 

In 1662, England made the first treaty with a Barbary pirates ruler. This set the pattern for similar treaties by other European nations trading in the Mediterranean. Typically, a Barbary peace treaty required a nation to pay tribute to the pirate ruler, who would then call off attacks on the nation's ships. Tribute usually took the form of a large payment of money plus annual payments. The annual payments might be cash, military supplies, or expensive presents for the ruler. A particular treaty might also include ransom money for the release of a nation's citizens held captive by the Barbary country.

 

United States even paid tributes to pirates

 

The U.S. Pays Tribute

After finding American commerce in the Mediterranean had almost stopped due to the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special commission, consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the negotiations. The following year, Congress authorized a maximum of $80,000 to spend on tribute treaties with all the Barbary Pirate States.

In 1787, the United States signed a tribute treaty with Morocco. This proved to be a reasonable treaty, costing the United States a one-time only tribute of about $20,000. Except for a few brief disagreements, Morocco never again harassed American shipping.

 

Algiers, the most powerful of the Barbary Pirates States, was a different story. In the summer of 1785, pirates from Algiers captured two American merchant ships and held the 21 men aboard them for ransom. The United States offered $4,200 for the captives. The ruler of Algiers, called the dey, demanded nearly $60,000. The Americans refused, and negotiations dragged on for more than 10 years.

 

The two commissioners most involved in tribute treaty negotiations were John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Adams favored paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American commerce moving again in the Mediterranean. Jefferson disagreed. He saw no end to the demands for tribute. He wanted matters settled "through the medium of war" and proposed a league of trading nations to force the end of Barbary piracy.

 

In 1790, pirates from Algiers captured 11 American ships and more than 100 prisoners to add to those already held for ransom. This shocking news produced a serious debate in the newly formed U.S. Congress over the need to build a navy. But it took five years before Congress authorized the construction of six warships.

 

Finally, in 1796, the United States signed a peace treaty with Algiers. The United States agreed to pay $642,500 plus annual tribute of naval supplies and presents to the dey. In exchange, the dey promised to release of the American captives and protect American shipping. The United States had to borrow money to make the primary tribute payment.

 

After 1796 US paid another 160,000 us dollars in tributes and presents to pirates, and even had to borrow money to make the payments. In 1801 Pirate ruler canceled the agreements and requested more money. This time US refused and went to war with Barbary states.

 

Eventually....

 

The scope of corsair activity began to diminish as the more powerful European navies started to compel the Barbary States to make peace and cease attacking their shipping. However, the ships and coasts of Christian states without such effective protection continued to suffer until the early 19th century. Following the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna in 1814–15, European powers agreed upon the need to suppress the Barbary corsairs entirely and the threat was largely subdued. Occasional incidents occurred, including two Barbary wars between the United States of America and the Barbary States, until finally terminated by the French conquest of Algiers in 1830.

 

TLDR... 

Barbary pirates were a dominant force in the Mediterranean for a very long time. Its not a-historical that Caribbean pirates could become such force given sandbox rules (where everything is in the hands of players).

 

I personally believe that European powers can agree upon the need to suppress the Pirates entirely and subdue the threat by means of force not by means of eloquent writing on forums. Alternatively nations can sign separate tribute agreements and pay pirates to leave them alone. I think this suppression is an interesting challenge for nations. Someone just have to take on this goal and get it done.

 

This surely can be done before the alliances/war and peace patch. In the future alliances/war and peace might change the landscape significantly.

So you are planning to remove unique mechanics / advantages for Pirates and make them a normal faction in the short term? That is only way to have true sandbox outcomes. That means:

No piracy easy button or enforcement mechanics. Ability to attack members of your own faction is entirely removed from the game (including from Pirate Nation faction).

[Long Beard]

With my honesty hat on, I have to say that it's perhaps too easy to switch pirate vs switching to another nation.  You can switch to pirate in seconds with no asset loss, yet it's impossible for a pirate, or any other nation to switch back.

 

I suspect the clans who switched to Pirate probably wouldn't have done it if it meant losing their assets.

[Cragger]

With my honesty hat on, I have to say that it's perhaps too easy to switch pirate vs switching to another nation.  You can switch to pirate in seconds with no asset loss, yet it's impossible for a pirate, or any other nation to switch back.

 

I suspect the clans who switched to Pirate probably wouldn't have done it if it meant losing their assets.

 

Nah DirtyDiggler just switched back to U.S. supposedly to rejoin his clan coming over from PvP2 after he turncoated with STARS/SS/SORRY. All you have to do is trade everything off to an alt account or someone you can trust then delete the character and remake it since xp is tied to the steam account and there is nothing preventing you from remaking characters into nations you've turned pirate from.

 

The only thing extra you can keep by flipping pirate is blueprints  you've already learned. Not a big deal if that account isn't a crafter one.

[Jack Marslow]

I don't see a European coalition against pirates on PvP1 ever happening. Everyone is too focused trying to bash on the British and the Pirates are allied with whatever factions are dominated by the Russian player base.

[Captain Comery]

Pirates are so popular because what role play did kids play years ago?

Answer: Cowboys/Indians and PIRATES!

That's right, the only reason people role pirate is because it's an option that gives players a chance to re-live those days.

You want less pirates? That's not gonna happen unless the faction disappears from options which it won't. The devs clearly have plans for pirates as they expressed as an option in their last priorities pole. Until that happens just deal with it, don't complain like a baby who lost his bottle just because you aren't winning. Quit whining, grow a pair and let the devs develop this great game without your demands left, right and centre.

[Cragger]

I don't see a European coalition against pirates on PvP1 ever happening. Everyone is too focused trying to bash on the British and the Pirates are allied with whatever factions are dominated by the Russian player base.

 

Even IF a Coalition is formed the existence of port timers as they are would greatly diminish the effectiveness of such a coalition by setting them to a time where the coalition had less over all numbers and therefore dictating the front of attack.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Cragger

[Mrdoomed]

Pirates are so popular because what role play did kids play years ago?

Answer: Cowboys/Indians and PIRATES!

That's right, the only reason people role pirate is because it's an option that gives players a chance to re-live those days.

You want less pirates? That's not gonna happen unless the faction disappears from options which it won't. The devs clearly have plans for pirates as they expressed as an option in their last priorities pole. Until that happens just deal with it, don't complain like a baby who lost his bottle just because you aren't winning. Quit whining, grow a pair and let the devs develop this great game without your demands left, right and centre.

Right on.

[Long Beard]

Pirates are so popular because what role play did kids play years ago?

Answer: Cowboys/Indians and PIRATES!

That's right, the only reason people role pirate is because it's an option that gives players a chance to re-live those days.

You want less pirates? That's not gonna happen unless the faction disappears from options which it won't. The devs clearly have plans for pirates as they expressed as an option in their last priorities pole. Until that happens just deal with it, don't complain like a baby who lost his bottle just because you aren't winning. Quit whining, grow a pair and let the devs develop this great game without your demands left, right and centre.

 

Probably some truth in that. But I suspect many players play British because they fancy themselves as a Nelson.

There is going to be a bigger pull to Pirate because it's more universal, and folks are fascinated by pirates whether it be the Disney type or the historic type.

 

I also think there's probably quite a few pirates who have no interest in pirate history and lore, but like the idea of being a bad guy, free to plunder and steal without a moral label. 

[maturin]

Pirates are so popular because what role play did kids play years ago?

Answer: Cowboys/Indians and PIRATES!

That's right, the only reason people role pirate is because it's an option that gives players a chance to re-live those days.

You want less pirates? That's not gonna happen unless the faction disappears from options which it won't. The devs clearly have plans for pirates as they expressed as an option in their last priorities pole. Until that happens just deal with it, don't complain like a baby who lost his bottle just because you aren't winning. Quit whining, grow a pair and let the devs develop this great game without your demands left, right and centre.

You really think there would be so many pirates if they had permadeath, etc?