Why PVP Global USA Fails

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

You're playing to lose.

I really don't understand, lose, win. I don't care. I play to have fun.

[surfimp]

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

I play to have fun.

See, that's your first mistake. There's only one acceptable way to play a game, and that's playing to win, and anything not in service of that goal is scrub mode.

Or so @Tenet would have us believe.

I think we need a fifth player type:

5. Forum PVPer - Enlists creative writing abilities with the end goal of prodding and poking other forum participants into paying attention to his/her posts and replying to said posts. Once this goal is accomplished, the Forum PVPer proceeds to enlist all manner of diatribe, debate, oratory, demagoguery and rhetoric to attempt to gain a tactical one-up on his/her respondent(s). Scores are tallied in a variety of ways, mainly subjective, including number of replies received, number of "Likes", number of nasty PMs received, etc. The Forum PVPer lives for the thrill of verbal sparring and turns almost any thread he/she responds to towards this end.

[Bach]

2 hours ago, Tenet said:

If you weren't roleplaying and lying to yourself, you wouldn't be posting on this forum at all. 

Your whole position seems to be based on an assumption that all players involved are trying to "win" the game.   Whatever a "win" is considered. For purposes of this discussion I'm assuming "win" = total conquest of the land areas of the game map.

i think you are spot on that there is this other class of player Vllad didn't add to his list.  How else would you explain the mass tendency for polarization into two balanced powers. It also xplains why the alliance system failed. It ended up forcing the polarized view point on all the players including those that didn't play to "win".  This class of players will always strive to set up sides and balance those sides. Ultimately resulting in either total domination or Cold War stalemate and/or peace.

As to the Global French stuff you probably need to keep interviewing more French.  The issue isn't so much scrubs as simple gaming etiquette.  Yes, they did set up a mass French comms before the wipe.  Yes they did have a diplomacy section for inter French relationships and a connecting site to the rest of the nations in the game.  The long and short of it is that the old PVP2 French from last fall wanted to recreate similar alliances and balanced powers that existed last fall.  However, post wipe, there was now several new French clans that did not play France last year and didn't want to recreate the same old alliances.  This created an uneasy rift.  From there the Danes came in didn't deal with the set up comms. They dealt with French players from last year and set up a deal without consulting the new French clans.  The deal was set up to promote polarization and balance of powers. They assumed all would simply go along with this. But the new French don't think in that pattern and don't value polarized balance of powers. You could say they aren't playing to win. But in truth, they aren't playing to stalemate and peace as was proven last year doing this same alliance and balancing crap.

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Bach

[Slamz]

Tenet is clearly the Grand Strategist in Vllad's breakdown.

If only we would understand his brilliance, we would see the way to clear victory.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go raid another village and burn down some huts.

I'm not real sure whose huts they are.

Doesn't really seem relevant to my interests.

[Tenet]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

Tenet is clearly the Grand Strategist in Vllad's breakdown.

Quote

You are missing at least one more type, the one that just wants classic 3-faction RvR without any prospects of domination and without driving opponents out of the game. The person that likes the screening and 25v25 PB and the OW maneuvering that reaches that culmination, and for whom long term strategical implications are more of a detriment than a goal. For such a person the map would always Reset in "rebellion" whenever one side got too strong and whenever two sides would push too hard against the third. 

Vllad's breakdown omits a type. I quoted it since you failed to read the original post and joined in this chorus of personal attacks. 

Edit: 

In your own great post in suggestions you claimed to prefer 3 more or less equal teams for RvR instead of the 8 teams we have right now. Do you take that post back?

By attacking the Dutch and the Danes, for whatever reason, the French have guaranteed that a third "team" did not emerge, and that the only relevant teams are going to be GB and Pirates. 

It's the forces of inflexibility and tribalism that have split up the USA, and it's the same forces that have split up the French, and Vllad was completely off by blaming it on "player types", whether in jest or not. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tenet

[Slamz]

2 minutes ago, Tenet said:

Vllad's breakdown omits a type. I quoted it since you failed to read the original post and joined in this chorus of personal attacks. 

Every type thinks their type is what's really best for RvR and is really the best balanced and takes the most things into consideration. Every type thinks they're that magical unicorn type you are proposing.

The moral of the story is every type steps on every other type's toes and none of them will relent because after all, their way is the best and it's ridiculous that other people don't see it and play like them.

What this game really lacks is the mechanics that help the types work together (or possibly just eliminates some of them). Planetside solved the problem by creating a game that literally only allows Viking Raiders to play it. The other types are mechanically eliminated.

[Tenet]

Do you recognize the existence of the RvR / sport-PvP type that I outlined, or not? 

Do you recognize that some players will always shift to the underdog to ensure the system is balanced?

They clearly oppose the very nature of "server domination". 

[Hethwill]

In truth, and coming back to the US nation, what is really important is to give newcomers and veterans alike a solid tapestry of gameplay where all types do their thing under a common goal. Can be as simple as working PvE in hostility and even going on raiding forays into pvp waters. Learn with every loss, learn to commit and when to retreat.

Above anything have fun together.

Game doesn't end ever and nation doomsayers do not help single bit.

All nations across the pvp server have at one point or another go through refreshment. Communities and clan get more tight and squadrons start working better.

 

[Tenet]

One key thing the devs could do to improve this system tremendously is to separate the Teams from the Nations.

This is a niche' game that tends to appeal to age of sail Enthusiasts, people that read the Aubrey Maturin series, or Hornblower, people that came in contact in some way with the sea and these beautiful ships.

This culture is dominated by the British, US and Pirate stories - and most people will chose such a team, particularly if they are listed at the top of the list of the server.

If instead anyone could be any nation, and had to pick one of 3 arbitrary teams, like in a classic RvR setup, this nationalism would not pollute the team choices and we would have a more balanced server. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tenet

[HoneyBaddger]

What's this...compassion from pirates?

[Blackjack McGee]

The new Conquest Mark system will destroy the game.  Without the Marks there is no way to compete against a nation with Marks.  Connies against lineships will not cut it.

[Vllad]

3 hours ago, Blackjack McGee said:

The new Conquest Mark system will destroy the game.  Without the Marks there is no way to compete against a nation with Marks.  Connies against lineships will not cut it.

 

So the team with all the line ships will control the Line Ship ports. What about the majority of ports who don't allow Line Ships?

[Hodo]

4 hours ago, Vllad said:

 

So the team with all the line ships will control the Line Ship ports. What about the majority of ports who don't allow Line Ships?

While I agree with you, I also disagree.  

Most of the ports are not SOL battles, but if you add in all of the 4th rate ports with that, you end up with over 70% of the map being a port that requires either 4th rates (which need CM to make) or SOL (which require CM to make).   

Then there is the hard fact that most of the major traffic areas are deep water ports, in deep water regions.  

It is hard to fight a war in this game with 5th rates and 6th rates. 

[Slamz]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

requires either 4th rates (which need CM to make) or SOL (which require CM to make).  

I'd be interested in seeing a battle of 25 Aggies vs 25 Connies some day. Aggies are the better lineship but the way circles are, it turns into a brawl and I think Connie is the better brawler. Connies can be made with regular old combat marks obtained via PvE. My guild has done so many port flips lately that we're rolling in combat marks these days (from the NPC grind).

Incidentally, admin recently hinted about an idea to reward Lords with extra labor hours instead of marks. I do like that idea. A big nation can make more lineships more easily due to the extra labor but they still have to haul shit everywhere. A poor nation with 1 port could still work their way up to lineships at the present rate.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Slamz

[Bach]

56 minutes ago, Hodo said:

While I agree with you, I also disagree.  

Most of the ports are not SOL battles, but if you add in all of the 4th rate ports with that, you end up with over 70% of the map being a port that requires either 4th rates (which need CM to make) or SOL (which require CM to make).   

Then there is the hard fact that most of the major traffic areas are deep water ports, in deep water regions.  

It is hard to fight a war in this game with 5th rates and 6th rates. 

It is certainly easier with line ships but hardly a requirement. Technically every port can be captured with one mortar brig. After that is anything from a Niagara to a Santisima.  In considering the instance itself the biggest most numerous ship you can shove into it tends to be standard go.  But this formula can be shifted by various sand box possibilities before the instance in many ways. Further, Port battle circle cap points are not weighted by size of ship. Just a simple count of hulls. This leaves various scenarios of sand box strategy where a smaller force can trip up a larger force.  Granted, none of this is as easy as just planning a 25v25 instance only strategy but it's not impossible.  

Trafalgar and the events leading to it are a rough idea.  Nelson's arguably superior force was out maneuvered by the French/Spanish force. They lead him on a tour from the Mediterranean to the Carribean and back.  Without modern radar and comms the smaller mobile French/Spanish force is dangerous everywhere. Trafalgar eventually occurs when Napoleon orders the French Admiral to engage at all costs. Then came the 25v25 style battle the British favored that ended Bucacenteur and Santisima.  Point being, the open world contains many factors beyond armor thickness and gun sizes.  A 25 ship fleet of Vic's is actually only dangerous when it is in the correct location at the correct time.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bach

[Vllad]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

 

It is hard to fight a war in this game with 5th rates and 6th rates. 

Its harder without them but it is possible. It would take a little more time but apparently we have plenty of that left. 

[Hodo]

15 hours ago, Bach said:

It is certainly easier with line ships but hardly a requirement. Technically every port can be captured with one mortar brig. After that is anything from a Niagara to a Santisima.  In considering the instance itself the biggest most numerous ship you can shove into it tends to be standard go.  But this formula can be shifted by various sand box possibilities before the instance in many ways. Further, Port battle circle cap points are not weighted by size of ship. Just a simple count of hulls. This leaves various scenarios of sand box strategy where a smaller force can trip up a larger force.  Granted, none of this is as easy as just planning a 25v25 instance only strategy but it's not impossible.  

Trafalgar and the events leading to it are a rough idea.  Nelson's arguably superior force was out maneuvered by the French/Spanish force. They lead him on a tour from the Mediterranean to the Carribean and back.  Without modern radar and comms the smaller mobile French/Spanish force is dangerous everywhere. Trafalgar eventually occurs when Napoleon orders the French Admiral to engage at all costs. Then came the 25v25 style battle the British favored that ended Bucacenteur and Santisima.  Point being, the open world contains many factors beyond armor thickness and gun sizes.  A 25 ship fleet of Vic's is actually only dangerous when it is in the correct location at the correct time.

Not exactly sure what you are saying.  Maybe because it is early and I havent finished my coffevee.   But the Franco-Spanish fleet had the superior force at Trafalgar. (On paper).  But the Royal Navy out maneuvered them.

15 hours ago, Vllad said:

Its harder without them but it is possible. It would take a little more time but apparently we have plenty of that left. 

For every 1 competent 5th, 6th, and 7th rate captain there are 15 are barely able to sail their way out of harbor.

[Bach]

2 hours ago, Hodo said:

Not exactly sure what you are saying.  Maybe because it is early and I havent finished my coffevee.   But the Franco-Spanish fleet had the superior force at Trafalgar. (On paper).  But the Royal Navy out maneuvered them.

For every 1 competent 5th, 6th, and 7th rate captain there are 15 are barely able to sail their way out of harbor.

You get the point. On paper the Franco/Spanish fleet shoutd have been superior based on ship stats (gear).  But Villenueve knew it wasn't when it came to skills.  So he avoided Nelson for months until Napoleon made him commit to a real battle he had little faith in.  Until the day Napoleon made Villenueve commit the Franco/Spainish fleet appeared superior or equal.  From the political/diplomatic stand point of threat level, as long as Villenueve kept his fleet mobile across the map and not in actual battle, Britains dominance of the sea was in doubt.  Anyway, there is influential power, real power and perceived power. Most gamers never think or see beyond percieved power. Napoleon opted to contest a stronger real power with his perceived power and lost all three. In NA huge fleets of 1st rates are a strong perceived power. But that doesn't alway equate to real and influential power. Often does but not always and certainly not in every situation.

Though many mmo truly do come down to just best gear, NA has a higher requirement of player skills for success. Also numbers of cheap gear can overwhelm lesser numbers of top end gear. It also has resources that far out pace the real world. As such smaller nation can project and sway the various levels of the powers. In this thread many are suggesting that the USA is powerless simply because they cannot project the same levels of real power as the pirate nation in one isolated portion of the battlefield.  The USA team simply needs to think broader in scope.   

On a side note. I wouldn't be surprised if the remaining USA team didn't ally with the pirate team. Strategically it is the simplest move to solve the most issues.  Might require some soul searching though.

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Bach

[Hodo]

8 minutes ago, Bach said:

 

On a side note. I wouldn't be surprised if the remaining USA team didn't ally with the pirate team. Strategically it is the simplest move to solve the most issues.  Might require some soul searching though.

 

Unfortunately I dont see that happening, to many people with bad blood between them.  The US is in a rough place, I personally have stopped all of my attacks on them because of this fact.   While I enjoy PVP and hunting trade ships, I do not enjoy kicking a side while they are down.  Unless I dont like them as players, then I will spawn camp you until you uninstall the game.

[Sir Texas Sir]

22 hours ago, Slamz said:

I'd be interested in seeing a battle of 25 Aggies vs 25 Connies some day. Aggies are the better lineship but the way circles are, it turns into a brawl and I think Connie is the better brawler. Connies can be made with regular old combat marks obtained via PvE. My guild has done so many port flips lately that we're rolling in combat marks these days (from the NPC grind).

Incidentally, admin recently hinted about an idea to reward Lords with extra labor hours instead of marks. I do like that idea. A big nation can make more lineships more easily due to the extra labor but they still have to haul shit everywhere. A poor nation with 1 port could still work their way up to lineships at the present rate.

While we do lean towards the Aggies, but if you look at our Port Battles fleets there is a reason we mix them up with some ships.  The SOL's you won't see all Oceans or Santies or Victs.  For one we want our guys to be comfortable in the ship they are fighting in.  The second thing is we don't line fight.   We bring it to the dirty nasty brawl as soon as we can and proceed to sink folks that don't know how to brawl.   Connies make great fast response ships and they have pretty good crew management depend on your builds.  Aggy is a great tank ship for brawling, but it lacks on the speed and turn rate that the Connies have.  They both are great ships, but I wouldn't put my money on one or the other if you do a straight out 25 vs 25 (ok money would prob be on the Aggy's).   Now take a well organized clan in a mixed fleet that can work off each other strength and weakness they will beat those 25 Aggy's/Connies no matter what.

If your a small nation that doesn't get many CM than you need to fight the fights you can handle.  Go or the shallow water and 4th battles.  Don't go pick a fight until you have the fleet that can fight it.  Bring actual ships made for the fight  (not store bought).   I have two Aggy's.  One for OW PvP and the other for Port battles.  I have two Victs.  One for attacks and the other for home defense port battles.   I have a Connie I use for OW PvP and my alt uses Surprises/Renno's with a speed Bucc for OW fighting, even though he's my shallow water char for those port battles.   If you catch what I'm meaning is that you have ships for the fights your going to do.   If you don't than try to get something the best you can or well maybe take the week or two to get a better ship.  The patch has only been out what 5-6 weeks now, so a little over a month and half.  No one expects every one to be in 1st rates, but sure enough folks should have good shallow water and 4th rate ships by now.

 

Oh and ya'll forgot two other groups of players:  

Forum Whores (I'm one of them) that has to post on every little thing and get involved.  

Than you have the Drama Queens.  These folks don't even PvP/RvR or hell play the game for the most part but all they do is spend time in global and forums posting and commenting on every thing trying to stir the pot up between others.

[Hodo]

8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

Than you have the Drama Queens.  These folks don't even PvP/RvR or hell play the game for the most part but all they do is spend time in global and forums posting and commenting on every thing trying to stir the pot up between others.

Hey....

I represent that remark, mostly.. except I actually PVP.

[Kawazz]

On 7/3/2017 at 10:57 AM, Christendom said:

Now having experienced the current iteration of the US post wipe, I'll add a few comments here.

Clans not working together. NPG doesn't like to work with IGG, DD refuses to work with anyone....etc etc.  Far too much drama.  A lot of this has to do with the piss poor leadership that NPG presents through lionshaft, the guy should just stick to running lazer tag places instead of clans, and his absurd ego.  He refuses to be flexible and the clan before nation mindset is damaging.  After New Orleans port battle I was shocked at how many could not manual sail and myself and Thomas Pain of TF made attempts to get NPG to commit guys to doing basic fleet maneuvers and turns, lion's response was "yea my guys won't be interested in that".  Frankly the best thing that could of happened was Daniel Silver taking over for most of the NPG stuff, hopefully it stays that way.  

IGG is also a problem (Dauntless' Clan).  They consistently shit talk the NPG guys in Nation chat.  Second guess decisions.  Barely show up to support the nation.  Start west end flips then stop helping and then blame NPG for finishing and setting the battle.  Show up in cheap store bought brigs...  During the Soto La Marina fight I saw Koiz outside in a basic cutter just hello kittying around.  During the Savannah fight Koiz was just out in a merc hello kittying around and got tagged by the pirates and then live streamed it.  Seemed odd.  He then live streamed nation chat for a while.  He and his clan then went pirate the next day, seems like there was some tampering going on to help out the pirates.  Basically the dude is a scumbag and the nation will be better without IGG.

Clans like DD are a huge problem and refuse to organize.  There is this mindset in the US, I paid my 40 bucks and I'll do what I want.  That is detrimental to the nation.  The PVP1 guys left because we just couldn't organize and we were not going to waste further time and resources calling the east coast our home.  

So in summary.  Unite around what Daniel Silver is trying to do.  Stop being hello kittying idiots and get on TS and talk to each other.

That nation is toxic and always has been, your whole statement shows how blindly bias you are, all BS and no facts. Shall we talk about how you talk shit about everyone in global.

 

Quote

During the Soto La Marina fight I saw Koiz outside in a basic cutter just hello kittying around.

Yes because I was one of three people tracking your main fleet.... I was even attacked at one point so you guys could fake going into port so you could move again.

 I then streamed the outside of that port battle as a resource and followed you guys down to see what activity was around that region.

Quote

During the Savannah fight Koiz was just out in a merc hello kittying around and got tagged by the pirates and then live streamed it.  Seemed odd.  He then live streamed nation chat for a while.

Slander again.

The entire clan brought ships that were going to be lost.

I stayed in that battle so we knew when the rats were spawning.

I love how none of you joined the battle with the real rat fleet in it. You were all cowards that night.

Quote

 Show up in cheap store bought brigs... 

Slander again.

One person had a store-bought brig everything else was crafted, but keep going on and on about this one DOM as you always do in Global.

 

Quote

 He then live streamed nation chat for a while.

I streamed nation chat because yet again the same thing happened, a nation on the run making bad deals and falling apart. We were laughing at the history repeating itself thats when we knew we were done with the nation.

Quote

He and his clan then went pirate the next day, seems like there was some tampering going on to help out the pirates.

Slander again.

We went pirate to get away from the same USA shit cycle. IGG tried last year to get the nation to move in one direction, and while we had success it was impossible to get the rest of the nation going in the same direction. At the end of the day this is a game and we really weren't enjoying watching history repeat itself.

 

Quote

A lot of this has to do with the piss poor leadership that NPG presents through lionshaft, the guy should just stick to running lazer tag places instead of clans, and his absurd ego.

Your EGO is on another planet, maybe in the same system as lions. Hell coming from a guy that has a trump icon maybe people will start making the connection.

Edited July 7, 2017 by koiz
fixed spacing

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, koiz said:

That nation is toxic and always has been, your whole statement shows how blindly bias you are, all BS and no facts. Shall we talk about how you talk shit about everyone in global.

 

Yes because I was one of three people tracking your main fleet.... I was even attacked at one point so you guys could fake going into port so you could move again.

 I then streamed the outside of that port battle as a resource and followed you guys down to see what activity was around that region.

Slander again.

The entire clan brought ships that were going to be lost.

I stayed in that battle so we knew when the rats were spawning.

I love how none of you joined the battle with the real rat fleet in it. You were all cowards that night.

Slander again.

One person had a store-bought brig everything else was crafted, but keep going on and on about this one DOM as you always do in Global.

 

I streamed nation chat because yet again the same thing happened, a nation on the run making bad deals and falling apart. We were laughing at the history repeating itself thats when we knew we were done with the nation.

Slander again.

We went pirate to get away from the same USA shit cycle. IGG tried last year to get the nation to move in one direction, and while we had success it was impossible to get the rest of the nation going in the same direction. At the end of the day this is a game and we really weren't enjoying watching history repeat itself.

 

Your EGO is on another planet, maybe in the same system as lions. Hell coming from a guy that has a trump icon maybe people will start making the connection.

Slander-

the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

 

I dont think that word means what you think it means.

[Kawazz]

11 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Slander-

the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

 

I dont think that word means what you think it means.

Quote

a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

 

[Hodo]

10 minutes ago, koiz said:

 

Seeing as this is a text based medium, it is not and cannot be slander.

Liable is what you are looking for.  Trust me I slept with a lawyer.