Give Player-Constructed Ships more Durability than NPC-ships

[Jon Allen]

Right now we have a good mechanism to limit the value of captured ships, they have a durability of 1.

 

But there is an ongoing conversation taking place about how to make player-constructed ships more appealing. Crafters are competing against NPC builders who are selling ships at incredibly low prices. It's hard to make player-made ships marketable, it's hard to compete with the NPC ultra low prices.

 

It's a complex problem, and most of the solutions that have been proposed have also been complex, but I have a suggestion for one relatively simple thing we could do that would give player-constructed ships a worthy edge.

 

Give them more durability than their NPC-constructed equivilant.

 

I'm not going to try to get into how much durability, but enough to make a difference. If the standard NPC ship (of any quality) has a durability of 5, then maybe the player-made equivilant has a durability of 7. (EDIT: To be clear, that is just an example on how this might be handled, not exactly what I'm proposing. Whether its raising the durability of PC ships, or lowering the durability of NPC ships, or some combo of those things, the essence is the same, PC ships have more durability.)

 

It's a simple change, but it will make player-made ships more valuable, more marketable, and perhaps worth the extra cost.

 

Food for thought.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Jon Allen

[John SIlver]

As my clans ship-builder, I respectfully disagree. Player-built ships already have the appeal of being way higher quality and being able to be custom-built to suit a players specific needs, The material cost vs. having 5 durability is already a little too "casual" for this kind of game IMO. 

 

I see your point but I think we should be looking in the other direction, for example - lowering the durability on NPC ships to 3, while keeping the player built ones at 5. 

Edited February 4, 2016 by John SIlver

[Jon Allen]

The essence of my suggestion can go either way. Whether raising one, or lowering the other, or some combo of those things. The point is the same. PC ships have more durability.

 

I offered the 5-7 example just to illustrate my point. It would be up to the Devs to decide exactly how they would handle it.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Jon Allen

[JJWolf]

Reduce NPC durability to 1, reduce player crafted to 3. That would be more realistic and ensure a steady sale of ships.

[Scorpio Shirica]

I think they found in testing that players are simply risk averse. The less amount of dura, the less amount of time players will actually risk their ships. This is partly due to the grind, players don't want to risk the hours it took to procure their ships.

 

Crafters will have less people buying their ships, not more, with less dura, unless the grind is significantly reduced in how long it takes for players to accumulate the wealth to get said ship. At first glance, one would think ships would turn over more rapidly with less dura, but I think there is some serious underestimation of how risk averse players can be.

[LeeUK]

I thought a big part of the issue was also the people buying up all the Iron ore and other materials from all the ports with the sole intent of selling it for 2-3x the purchase price to other players, even within the same ports that they have purchased it from, am I wrong?. At least that's what I saw people complaining about many a time, that would be a huge reason why ship building is not very profitable for anyone that can't be there to purchase Iron Ore etc constantly from the ports themselves, or they can buy very little but not enough to allow a focus on crafting something. Isn't it just basically artificial inflation?

 

Just seems like a broken system that benefits only the people able to keep buying up all the iron ore before everyone else, while completely shafting the people with less time and mostly the casuals who just want to craft. I have stayed away from crafting and trading because it just seems a bit of a mess, I certainly don't have the time to spend scraping together materials to try build a ship. The prices people are trying to sell their basic ships for in ports is probably an example of this.

Edited February 6, 2016 by LeeUK

[JJWolf]

I thought a big part of the issue was also the people buying up all the Iron ore and other materials from all the ports with the sole intent of selling it for 2-3x the purchase price to other players, even within the same ports that they have purchased it from, am I wrong?. At least that's what I saw people complaining about many a time, that would be a huge reason why ship building is not very profitable for anyone that can't be there to purchase Iron Ore etc constantly from the ports themselves, or they can buy very little but not enough to allow a focus on crafting something. Isn't it just basically artificial inflation?

 

Just seems like a broken system that benefits only the people able to keep buying up all the iron ore before everyone else, while completely shafting the people with less time and mostly the casuals who just want to craft. I have stayed away from crafting and trading because it just seems a bit of a mess, I certainly don't have the time to spend scraping together materials to try build a ship. The prices people are trying to sell their basic ships for in ports is probably an example of this.

 

Different issue but directly linked.

 

The issue here is as a recently promoted captain why would you buy a player crafted ship over an NPC ship? I can buy NPC ships with all the needed specs for less than a player made ship, you might say the player made ships are uncompetitive but even when materials have been brought at bargin prices there just isn't a profit in it that makes it worthwhile to craft. Sure I've sold a dozen Snows from Basic to Fine and the crafted note versions go like hotcakes, but it's still an issue for entry level shipwrights who haven't spent 2000+ labour hours on crafting notes (another issue in itself) just to improve the output quality so it's more sellable.

 

NPC ships need to be the fall-back option, not the primary option.

 

EDIT: Spelling/Grammar

Edited February 6, 2016 by JJWolf

[Hethwill]

No, and I completely and utterly would promote the 1 durability all across the board after 4th rank and open the market to prized ships.

[JJWolf]

No, and I completely and utterly would promote the 1 durability all across the board after 4th rank and open the market to prized ships.

 

And destroy the market completely, nice idea. Let's just allow people to cap ships and then re-sell them making nearly 100% profit or more while shipwrights are earning 10-20% plus hours to gather resources and craft? I don't think you have even thought your proposal through.

[Dalriaden]

pretty sure upgrade slots are a pretty good incentive to go with player made over npc made.

[LeeUK]

Different issue but directly linked.

 

The issue here is as a recently promoted captain why would you buy a player crafted ship over an NPC ship? I can buy NPC ships with all the needed specs for less than a player made ship, you might say the player made ships are uncompetitive but even when materials have been brought at bargin prices there just isn't a profit in it that makes it worthwhile to craft. Sure I've sold a dozen Snows from Basic to Fine and the crafted note versions go like hotcakes, but it's still an issue for entry level shipwrights who haven't spent 2000+ labour hours on crafting notes (another issue in itself) just to improve the output quality so it's more sellable.

 

NPC ships need to be the fall-back option, not the primary option.

 

EDIT: Spelling/Grammar

 

Crafting ships should need a lot of time investment to start seeing good profits, no one should be earning a fortune crafting basic 7th and 6th rate ships from day 1, just like you can't sail out. The issue still remaining is the players themselves, part of that is what you quoted from me, artificial inflation. If more material was widely available at more reasonable prices, half the problem would be solved, more ship crafters would sell their ships at reasonable prices and still earn a profit.

 

What are you trying to suggest though, that we should raise the prices of the NPC Ships to above the ridiculous prices players are trying to sell their shitty Brig for? won't the people responsible for the artificial inflation just raise the price some more to match the new profits of ship crafters?. Some people are massively overestimating the worth of their ships just because they payed out of their arse to buy the materials, sadly there are some naive and new players who fall into the trap of buying these Basic ships from players that they could have bought for half the price from the Ports ship generator.

 

So really the shafted crafters are just shafting the new players too, this is why I just buy the Ports Basic Ships and not the players, they're stupid prices and I don't want to give profit to someone who happily cons newbs just because he thinks the value of a ship = the price he payed for the materials to make it. We can't remove the Basic generated Port ships either, because then the crafters would just have stupidly priced ships for sell to match the big profits the people responsible for artificial inflation are making. That will force everyone to either buy their massively over priced ships if they ever want one themselves, or possibly just force the majority to craft their own and completely kill the ship selling market.

 

There really has to be a throttle on the artificial inflation and I do think that will help stabilize the economy and give more profit and strength to the ship builders, who will in turn be able to price their ships more reasonably while still turning a bit of profit until they can craft some high quality 5th+ rate ships, if there is a throttle that I am unaware of, it doesn't seem to be working, or at least it's not harsh enough.

[Fluffy Fishy]

NPC ships are generally made of undesirable wood types, usually teak, that is enough to make them less premium than player made ships, adding to that, the fact they only ever make basic makes them fairly non competitive.

[Hethwill]

And destroy the market completely, nice idea. Let's just allow people to cap ships and then re-sell them making nearly 100% profit or more while shipwrights are earning 10-20% plus hours to gather resources and craft? I don't think you have even thought your proposal through.

 

Indeed sir, I was thinking simply on the amount of lives mechanics while capturing ships is rather easy silly if a captain is a half decent half witted Corsair.

 

Sorry for the short coming.

 

Shouldn't we hold fast and wait for the Production and Manufactoring updates coming, that, quoting devs, will change the crafiting and trade gameplay completely ?

 

Regarding the quality of ships I don't even have a look at any of the city lists anymore no matter player or NPC built.

 

Custom orders are by far the best option. They come exactly as specified as long as you find a good crafter. The 5 durability thinng is okay in all built ships.

[JJWolf]

Indeed sir, I was thinking simply on the amount of lives mechanics while capturing ships is rather easy silly if a captain is a half decent half witted Corsair.

 

Sorry for the short coming.

 

Shouldn't we hold fast and wait for the Production and Manufactoring updates coming, that, quoting devs, will change the crafiting and trade gameplay completely ?

 

Regarding the quality of ships I don't even have a look at any of the city lists anymore no matter player or NPC built.

 

Custom orders are by far the best option. They come exactly as specified as long as you find a good crafter. The 5 durability thinng is okay in all built ships.

 

Thankfully the Devs seem to be more focused on fixing the economy these days than more trivial issues now left in PvP combat. Once a quality economy model is established then things like NPC ship prices will be mostly irrelevant. At this time however, high resource prices, limited craft hours, and low NPC ship prices are all factors influencing how unprofitable ship making is.

 

Adjusting NPC ship prices as a starting point would have a positive effect in selling ships overall by setting a more realistic pricing model. NPC ship sales don't factor in the 10% listing fee tax or realistic cost of goods.

 

On the PvE server I can cover my costs by selling my basic crafted Snows (Oak/Live Oak) currently at 50k while NPC Fir/Teak ships sell at 38k. As it stands, I am effectively selling at 45k when factoring the listing fee. This doesn't factor in anything on the 6 hours RL time I spent sailing and collecting the resources to be able to do so. I see player crafted basic snows sitting in the list over-priced at 80-90k not selling and that's good, people already are realistic about costs, and with my undercutting the player perception on ship pricing is being enhanced. My ships sell like hotcakes like the bargins they are, I'm just not making much profitably, only XP...

[TheGrey]

I think the current system is fine , however , I wouldn't mind seeing the dura of player crafted ship from class 4 and above to have only 3 . This should make players more careful about losing their ship and think twice before joining battles . But then we need strong game economy so ship builders get access to raw material and then they can steady supply market with ships till production buildings ( player owned ) is added to the game otherwise I can see prices of Iron Ingot and Iron Fittings hitting the roof .   

[Aetrion]

I think the current system is fine , however , I wouldn't mind seeing the dura of player crafted ship from class 4 and above to have only 3 . This should make players more careful about losing their ship and think twice before joining battles .

 

How in the hell is it a good thing if people don't want to actually fight fair battles?  I'm really afraid that this game is just going to turn into a boring gankfest where all the skill in the world doesn't actually matter because the only way to play it right is to never engage in a fight where how well any of the captains shoot even matters.

[sailNE]

With current state of economy its  so easy to have more that enough money and to be able to afford a new ship. Yes hemp and oak are rare-ish but still possible to find - the rest is just a money question. 5 is more that enough durability. Player made ships are already more valuable and has better quality. I decisively vote Nay on that one

[Hethwill]

How in the hell is it a good thing if people don't want to actually fight fair battles?  I'm really afraid that this game is just going to turn into a boring gankfest where all the skill in the world doesn't actually matter because the only way to play it right is to never engage in a fight where how well any of the captains shoot even matters.

 

A well versed corsair intercepted by 3 or 4 others will surely cripple one of them before disengaging.

Sailing skill matters twice as much as consistent shooting without needing ranging shots which matters twice as much as the ships being used.

 

That is why I said a custom built ship is the best way to go. You will order it based on your experience with all the ships and that one class specifically, not just rank.

 

I am affraid many captains overlook the obvious for the sake of numbers and names in a screen and then cry that the wiki is wrong and that this or that should be slower or how the hell it turned so fast... They hardly know their ships...

 

It wouldn't matter if it is 5 or 3 or even 1 life.

[Tremor]

Durability is near useless at the moment.

So crafting is near useless at the moment.

Just board a ship.
Even if it sinks and you loose cannons you would save a lot of money doing it this way.

 

Soultution : (yes i know i changed my mind concerning pirates if you look at my previos posts , forget the previous posts about pirates as nation clone )

Nations : Remove the possibilty for boarding. Nations can only buy ships.

Only pirates can board (makes them unique)

Pirates can not board SOLs.  (to counterweight the feature of boarding)

Pirates can rejoin a nation (once a month ?)

 

 

[Hethwill]

What about us honest privateers ? We are under the patronage of a Nation and we cannot lose our daily bread toil...

[El Capitano]

NPC crafted 3 Dura

Player Crafted 5 Dura

 

I am also not opposed to reducing overall durability to be:

 

NPC Crafted 2 Dura

Player Crafted 4 Dura

[Tremor]

it would be even ok to complete remove durability.

just set it to 1.

 

And let me sell boarded ships.

[Mr. Starbuck]

player made ships are in nearly all cases so much better than their NPC counter-parts. they can even be tailored to your specific needs.

 

I am crafting ships at maximum rate (leaving no single labour hour untouched) and can't complain about orders or plroblems in selling them. In fact I've taken orders for the next two days worth of labour hours

 

So, there's absolutely no need in increasing the demand for crafted items.

 

I really see no need in nerfing down NPC ships that harsh- if you want to have a cheapo, go cap something and live with the fact htat it just might sink and take all your precious stuff on it downwards to Neptune.

[Excelsior718]

I don't believe that NPC ships bigger than a privateer should be available at all.  

 

There are plenty of crafters.  Allow the market for ships to be filled by players, not NPC's

[Macjimm]

The material cost vs. having 5 durability is already a little too "casual" ... - lowering the durability on NPC ships to 3, while keeping the player built ones at 5.

This makes much more sense. Do we really want rich players to have super ships with 10 durabilities?