IronClaw Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) It gives me the impression that it is their game, and they are keepers of the purity of the game. The only thing that will happen if you have to pay for another character is start some kind of pay to win system, in wich the ones respecting the rules won't be able to compete, overall if they don't have money to spend. (i would happily pay for another copy of the game, just to support a little bit more the devs, but i just can't) But others can. So if they make 10 character per account, you will have 10. But others can have 20. Or 30. So you'd be at a disadvantage anyway. Where's the limit? How many characters do you need per account where it stops being an advantage to buy a second account to have more chars? 3? 5? 10? 100? Let's say it's 10. Let's assume that when you have 10 characters per account, it doesn't make sense to have a second account, because you don't have enough time in one day to spend the hours of more than 10 characters anyway... But some people only have 2 hours a day to spend on the game. So then théy will be at a disadvantage, because they don't have the time to play with more than one character. Either way, whatever system you choose, some people will "lose", others will "win". In some systens, the "rich" people win, in other systems unemployed people (with plenty of time) win. A moot discussion. Let the devs choose whatever they think best and accept that someone always loses. Edited January 18, 2016 by IronClaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Ironclaw, In my world a day is 24h. Correct me if I am wrong, but i think humans need to sleep, eat, take a shower, and , why not, have a life outside of the game. All that is time consuming. How many characters can you effectively play in 24h? I don't know. But with the travel time, the time needed to refill your labor hours reserve, the time spent fighting, i don't think you can reasonably play more than 3, maybe 4 characters effectively. I'm not sure there is so many people able to do that to the point it can unbalance the economy, overall if a vast majority (as i believe it will be) are playing in a fair way. Add to this that a player even with let's say 10 characters won't be able to compete with any organized clan of 10 people with the same goal (if he can i think there will be a game conception problem). Edited January 18, 2016 by Anarcke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKurj. Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Relax the rules on pve server, allow people multiple characters per account on the pve server, then players like Anarcke can have what he wants, and I am sure he won't be the only one. But keep the restrictions in place for the pvp server, as others have mentioned, tied to one faction, pooled labour hours etc. If this weren't a conquest game it wouldn't matter so much.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 If you give us all 3 chars per account, only the people with enough time on their hands will benefit, no one else. No, it doesn't. There isn't a lot of additional time involved, it's just 3 times the crafting hours for you to use instantly after a 5 minutes tradeup of ressources. Same goes for contracts making and teleporting once every 4 hours to collect your contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Let's remember in this game that you can't trade assets to another character unless you have help and that help must be in the same location. You cant send money to an alt except through another account (multi boxing or another player). Right now you can exploit because neutral allows you to get into enemy ports. Take that out and you solve the biggest problem. Next is labor hours. Move to another means for crafting and that solves that. So they are all one nation, now they have to jump through a few hurdles with time and space and getting resources back to their main character to craft. You can only send 5 deliveries. You can only teleport once every four hours. It takes hours for deliveries to arrive (2 hours from la tortue to st nicolas alone). With the other recommended changes along with those already built in, that makes it oftly hard to exploit and multibox. In fact, forcing people to buy another account just to get 1 more character encourages it. 3 characters with protections per account allows those who have family members or those who want to split their time between 3 accounts for a pvp character, a crafter and an explorer the ability to do so without difficulty. What isn't reasonable and ticks me off, is a poll that will basically decide that if I want to play the game to its fullest extent (how I want to play the game, constantly being able to experience the 3 areas in the game - pvp, trading/crafting, and exploring and to be able to switch between those 3 easily) I have to buy multiple copies of the game. Stuff that affects people's pocket books cannot be left to a poll. And if it was going to be one character per account, it should have been built in from the start instead of allowing multiple characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronClaw Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Ironclaw, In my world a day is 24h. Correct me if I am wrong, but i think humans need to sleep, eat, take a shower, and , why not, have a life outside of the game. All that is time consuming. How many characters can you effectively play in 24h? I don't know. But with the travel time, the time needed to refill your labor hours reserve, the time spent fighting, i don't think you can reasonably play more than 3, maybe 4 characters effectively. I'm not sure there is so many people able to do that to the point it can unbalance the economy, overall if a vast majority (as i believe it will be) are playing in a fair way. Add to this that a player even with let's say 10 characters won't be able to compete with any organized clan of 10 people with the same goal (if he can i think there will be a game conception problem). To be honest, I think it's pretty easy to play 10 characters. All I need from them is the crafting hours really. If I was unemployed, I could easily level one character and use the others for crafting materials. But even if I couldn't.... Ever heard of World of Warcraft? People hiring other people to level their characters? If I wanted, I could buy 10 accounts and pay some people to craft me stuff with all the characters. In the end it's all just time, money, or both. Again; whatever number you pick, 1 char per account, 3, 5, 10, 100.... someone will win, someone will lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronClaw Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) No, it doesn't. There isn't a lot of additional time involved, it's just 3 times the crafting hours for you to use instantly after a 5 minutes tradeup of ressources. Same goes for contracts making and teleporting once every 4 hours to collect your contracts. Fair enough. So give us 3 chars per account, I buy 5 accounts and I "win". Is that good? (also see my post above) Just to avoid people misunderstanding me, I'm not an advocate of more than 1 char per account, nor am I an advocate for only 1 char per account. I'm simply saying it will not matter. At all. Edited January 18, 2016 by IronClaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Maybe it is bad. We can't stop it though. But we can stop people from having three characters.That means we have prevented at least some harm to the economy. Even if we can't prevent the other part the overall state of the economy will be objectively better, than if we would had both 3 characters per account and multi-account owners try to inbalance it. Edited January 18, 2016 by Nathaniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Maybe it is bad. We can't stop it though. But we can stop people from having three characters.That means we have prevented at least some harm to the economy. Even if we can't prevent the other part the overall state of the economy will be objectively better, than if we would had both 3 characters per account and multi-account owners try to inbalance it. Build in protections. Eve allows alts and it is THE economy game in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 To be honest, I think it's pretty easy to play 10 characters. All I need from them is the crafting hours really. If I was unemployed, I could easily level one character and use the others for crafting materials. But even if I couldn't.... Ever heard of World of Warcraft? People hiring other people to level their characters? If I wanted, I could buy 10 accounts and pay some people to craft me stuff with all the characters. In the end it's all just time, money, or both. Again; whatever number you pick, 1 char per account, 3, 5, 10, 100.... someone will win, someone will lose. I have been playing WoW several years and i perfectly know what you're talking about, the matter with that example is that Blizzard volounterly let it happen in the beginning because it was hard to progress (overall in PvE since there was only 3 battlefields in vanilla, no arena, but a very good PvE content in raid, in wich there was no "difficulty selector" at this time), and they wanted to keep their players. When it became too game breaking, they started to give the option to report the ads, and they have been chasing the bots and chinese farmers more and more, but they have their share of responsability in it. If they is a system in place since the beginning to prevent that phenomenom, and it is achievable, it will never happen in NA. Someone always lose? If nobody is ready to make a compromise yes, if a compromise is reached, players just have to tolerate another style of gameplay than the one they like. And if you absolutely want someone to lose, why should we give up without defending our positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmdrbobcito Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 A thought for the Devs as opposed to the NA community. Consider providing a small number of multi-character accounts to those who have done yeoman service to the game and it's community(naming no names Prater). These accounts to be monitored for plus and minus affects/features on the further development of the game. This would be similar to a "lead the fleet" process on new equipment/systems put into operations in many modern militaries. The idea is to have a small number of systems used beyond normal operations intensity to discover failure rates, etc... If implemented these accounts would be "real world" arguments either for or against proposed practices for the whole community. Just say'n...it's like a continuation of testing. See everyone on the open seas in about 19 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKurj. Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 But not a fair comparison with EVE which has a whole lot of issues relating to multi-boxers (I used to run 3 accounts) The multi-boxers tied up manfacturing and research over huge areas making it tougher for the small guys. ANd hey if NA had a game world the size of EVE I doubt anyone would care about shared crafting hours and and multiple charcacters per account. (though to be fair eve only allows you to train one character at a time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And, as already stated in this thread by others, EVE rather underscores the argument for single accounts/shared labour pools since for most of it existence it restricted XP gain to only one character at a time. And EVE's XP is our equivalent to real time labour hours. You can make an additional argument for shared outposts/teleports, but i would regard it as secondary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Two warehouses per character then, and increased teleport time. So you have to travel more in order to trade/ craft, and can't manage a lot of alts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And, as already stated in this thread by others, EVE rather underscores the argument for single accounts/shared labour pools since for most of it existence it restricted XP gain to only one character at a time. And EVE's XP is our equivalent to real time labour hours. You can make an additional argument for shared outposts/teleports, but i would regard it as secondary. Labor hours needs to be done away with. They are free. Labor is not free. And I've stated like 5 times it should be shared between characters so that you keep bringing it up is moot. If the devs allow 3 characters and keep labor hours, it should be shared from the same pool across all accounts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Anarcke and others argue for split labour hours. I honestly haven't met a person who would argue with a system where you could have multiple characters in a nation with a shared crafting pool and shared outpost costs (not necessarily shared outposts) since from the point of view of the economy that would be equal to a single character per server setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And you know why i argue for split labor hours. If it is a shared account, when a player uses labor time to craft his ship (for a snow now it takes maybe 900-1000 hours, haven't done the maths), the other player on the other character, thinking during his way back from work "oh nice, this evening i can craft my snow", logs into the game, open the craft menu and...ooops, what happened!!? -Hey brother/ daughter/ whoever, what happened to the labor hours? -Nothing, i needed a Snow, i had enough labor ours and the mats, so i crafted it. -Thanks, i too needed a snow and i have the mats, so what now? -Well, just wait for your turn, don't play, sail to say you're doing something... Etc, etc... Plz take that kind of event in consideration, as it may well happen quite often with more players in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patoWC Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 1 Char per server 2 Remove Neutrals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver H. Perry Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And you know why i argue for split labor hours. If it is a shared account, when a player uses labor time to craft his ship (for a snow now it takes maybe 900-1000 hours, haven't done the maths), the other player on the other character, thinking during his way back from work "oh nice, this evening i can craft my snow", logs into the game, open the craft menu and...ooops, what happened!!? -Hey brother/ daughter/ whoever, what happened to the labor hours? -Nothing, i needed a Snow, i had enough labor ours and the mats, so i crafted it. -Thanks, i too needed a snow and i have the mats, so what now? -Well, just wait for your turn, don't play, sail to say you're doing something... Etc, etc... Plz take that kind of event in consideration, as it may well happen quite often with more players in the future. If it's that important to them, then they can buy two accounts. Otherwise, you're wrecking the economy of the whole game for a fringe case where two people want to have full functionality but only buy one game - we used to call that Pirating back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Certainly not Pirating, they are lots of games econ based in wich you can have more than one character, and i have to say i find it quite insulting as i paid the game my good sir, just like you. My opinion is as good as your, and for now nothing is set in stone, so if we stay silent, our opinion will not be heard. But i know the more vocals are listened to, because they don't give up, and, i hate doing that, but i have to do the same. What i wish to see is one character per server, and if possible 2 pvp servers. But right now, as stated above, it will be done if there is a demand for it, so i keep that demand visible, despite the fact that a lot of people just stick to the "1 character per account" for an unknown reason. I love you're "in the day"! You must be a wise elder!! Edited January 18, 2016 by Anarcke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver H. Perry Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 The software is buy once, play forever. That changes the overall structure of accounts to some degree, as compared to a monthly subscription or F2P setup. Let's look at the two major use cases here: Case 1 - An entire family shares a single Steam account, on a single PC. Dad, brother, sister. It's pretty simple to say - "If you want to share an account, you'll need to set some ground rules. You're all going to share a nation (and if one of you messes up, there's going to be a black flag flying over all of you), you're all going to share crafting time, but at least everyone gets to sail on our limited gaming budget. Go out and blow some folks up!" Case 2 - Two roommates/wife and husband share a single Steam account? That's a tad silly. But ok, you want to do that. Further, instead of each of you paying for a copy of the game, you'd rather share a copy. See Case 1. If you're going to insist on having three accounts that are fully independent and have full functionality, while not giving the Devs their due and reward them montarily for making such a great game, why should they award you for trying to cheat them out of the money for the extra copy??? That's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I'll rephrase what I meant to say earlier. So, how do I experience the game up to now? I have my main pvper, my trader, and an explorer. Say 1 hour I want to pvp at the front lines. I can do that. Say the next hour I want to explore South America and work on mapping. I can do that right now because of multiple characters. That is the gameplay I have right now. Now there is this public poll to remove this gameplay. And the only way I can continue what I've done for 9 months now is to buy 2-3 copies of the game ($40-80 more)? Screw everyone who says so. Why do you get such a say, that if I continue my current gameplay I have to buy more copies? Premium feature that adds another same nation character slot for $5, that is fine. Whole new copy? Nope, not fine. It is fine to limit something based on exploiting if protections can't be built in. But to limit it based upon a poll is not okay when money is involved and protections can be built in to either stop exploiting or make it extremely hard and tedious where it would be faster and more productive to do it the legal way instead of exploiting. but legal multiple character use should remain possible once the game is fully released. A delayed version due to not enough developer time at the moment is ok. Some people say they do all 3 areas on one character. Really, explain to me how you explore in South America or the Gulf and the next moment if you get bored of that, you are pvping or patrolling in the Antillies? I can do that right now. Why should any player get to decide that to continue what I do now that I have to pay $40-80 more? Screw those people. They call me elitist and a jerk, but they are the jerks for wanting to force me and others like me or family players to pay more for the game. They are the elitists who wish to limit and restrict how people are currently playing the game without exploits. Yes, remove exploits, but there is a way to do this and preserve multiple characters per account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver H. Perry Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I fully support multiple characters as long as they share the crafting resources time pool, and are all the same nation at all times. I think there's still some room (especially via the Delivery system) for exploitative behavior there, but it's limited. I do object to this idea that multiple people want to share an account and have unlimited run of the features. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 And that I fully agree with. I know it came after your post but I've been writing it between several downtimes for well over an hour now and it was directed at people who directed comments at me earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarcke Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Elitist is the word in think of too. And did you think about the fact that more players like us will come, and if they are not satisfied may ask for refund, make bad comments, and prevent people from buying the game? And if they are not enough people playing, how long do you think the game will last? "il n'y a pas pire aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir" We are telling you things but as it doesn't suit to your vision, you just throw them away... Compromise plz, it won't harm you, you'll just have to tolerate another gameplay style. Edited January 18, 2016 by Anarcke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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