Stat Change for the USS Essex

[CommodoreWesley]

I am one of the few that has received the USS Essex, and I have taken on the duty of testing her and seeing how she fits into the game. 

 

Most of her reviews, I hate to say, have been mixed.  And it is not just due to her lack of bow chasers either, but that her stats do not feel appropriate for her size and role.

 

From my inspections, the current stats of the Essex seems to be designed as a contender against the Trincomalee.  Both have similar speeds (with the Trinc a bit faster), and the exact same turn rate.  If the Trinc is crafted with armor with mind should be able to have more hitpoints than the Essex.  The Trinc however has a lot more firepower, being able to mount more guns and 18 pounders instead of just 12 pounders.  The only true advantage the Essex has over the Trinc is that she have 360 crew in comparison to the 315.  Other than the crew size, and decent hull armor however, she does seem to be an odd ship to be compared to the Trincomalee 

 

Below is an image of stats of miscellaneous frigates that the Essex would most likely fight against:

 

 

If by looking at the stats, (which are not truthfully accurate in representing each ship type stats, as they are different woods and qualities of ship building) the Essex seems to be a bit odd.

 

The hitpoints of the Essex is extraordinarily high for a 12-pounder frigate, nearly twice the armor of the Surprise, and 1.2 times the armor of a Live Oak Belle Poule.  The Turn rate of the Essex is as full degree slower than the Frigate and the Surprise, which would make sense because they have less armor and hit points, yet that full degree makes a massive difference in battle, which would make the Frigate be able to be able to completely out maneuver the Essex.  In turn, the Essex completely out classes all of her competition in crew size.

 

While this may be fine, as the Essex appears to be designed to fight the Trincomalee, looking at the ship in comparison to the others, the Essex’s size and hull does not appear like to be an armored beast to fight 4th-5th rate Frigates:

 

 

Here, it is easily seen that the Essex is significantly smaller than the Trincomalee and Constitution, yet is the same size as a Frigate.  With her hull lines being shaped like this, it does not make sense that she has so many hit points.  It also does not make as much sense why her turn rate is as slow when she is shorter than Trinc.

 

Also, after a brief search, I did not find a time where the Essex was crewed with 360 crew, instead I found mentions of her crew only being in the range of 250-300.  Also, most records call her a light frigate, of course, for the United States.  Her hull construction was mentioned to be made from white oak, therefore her high armor value should not be as great, if not equal to most other frigates in other navies.  She was known for her speed however, which should be her key advantage.

 

Therefore, with this, here are the stats that I suggest for a basic Essex with no improvements or penalties:

 

Max Speed: 13.00

Turn Rate: 2.60

Side structure (L/R): 3000/3000

Bow: 800

Stern: 350

Sails: 3400

Crew: 300

Battle Rating: 190 

 

These are up to debate, but basically, this is a nerf to most of the stats, but a boost to the turn rate.  The Speed can be higher, but that can influenced by modules.  The turn rate is what needs to be tuned the most, as it is just too low.  It’s still the lowest of the rest of the lighter frigates but that is the tradeoff for her speed.  Wood types will also greatly influence her performance, where she can be more armored or built more for more speed.  My changes also are not to make her a badass frigate, but to balance her out in a role she can better play in rather than being ignored as a sub-par Trinc.

 

Please discuss below.

Edited January 7, 2016 by CommodoreWesley

[maturin]

Unlike Belle Poule, Essex has full barricades/bulwarks on the quarterdeck and forecastle, which would protect the gunners much better. So that's one possible rationale for her high health.

[Malachi]

She was known for her speed however, which should be her key advantage.

 

 

Not in british service though, with 8.4 knots close-hauled and 11.4 going large max. A slight buff to the turn rate and a crew of ~ 300 would be reasonable, imo. And I don´t think she was meant to be as a contender for the Trinc, more like a 'super' 12-pounder frigate.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Malachi

[Prater]

The Surprise is no longer a 12lb frigate but a 9lb frigate.

 

Wikipedia

315 crew.

Armament (accroding to wikipedia)

18lb and 9lb guns (British??)

32lb carronades and 12lb guns (American)

 

 

 

3 decks

American Armament

1800  

Upper Gun Deck 26 American 12-Pounder

Spardeck 16 American 24-Pound Carronade

 

1810  

Upper Gun Deck 24 American 32-Pound Columbiad

Upper Gun Deck 2 American 12-Pounder

Spardeck 16 American 32-Pound Columbiad

Spardeck 4 American 12-Pounder

 

Crew Complement

1800

300  men

 

British Armament

1814  

Upper Gun Deck 26 British 18-Pounder

Quarterdeck 12 British 32-Pound Carronade

Forecastle 2 British 32-Pound Carronade

Forecastle 2 British 9-Pounder

[akd]

Not in british service though, with 8.4 knots close-hauled and 11.4 going large max.

Her British service was sailing back to Britain after being captured following a hard-fought battle and one and half years at sea. It can hardly be expected to have shown her in her best light.

Her actual qualities are a bit of a conundrum. She was retained in service in 1808 "because of her great speed and sailing qualities", yet in 1812 her captain, David Porter, considered her "the worst frigate in the service" because of her armament and sailing qualities.

[maturin]

Maybe she was sensitive to trim.

[CommodoreWesley]

Really, to be honest, she wasn't a 12-lber super-frigate.  I would call her an ordinary frigate.  

 

The reason why I kept the speed high is that she does have more modern lines, as well as having top royal sails.  The stats can be trimmed, and the sailing qualities might been due to the condition of the ship, being bombarded to lose 50% of the crew is obviously going to do irreversible damage to a ship.  Also she may of had a problem of hogging over time, she was reasonably pretty old for a frigate (15 years) by the War of 1812.

 

Also, using Maturin's little quote:

 

Unity knots are 130-155% faster than real world knots.

[admin]

 

 

Also, using Maturin's little quote:

 

Maturin data is incorrect. 

 

He says unity knots (nautical miles per hour are faster)

 

but

Grid is abstract

Time is abstract

Speed is abstract

 

Because there is theory of relativity and all dimensions are abstract there is no way to proof that his assumption is correct

 

For example.

• What if it is NOT speeds are 150% faster, but time is 50% faster and speed is normal?
• Or maybe .. what if time is 100% faster and speed is actually 50% slower?
• Or what if grid is 50% smaller?? Or its 100 bigger but time is faster and knots are slower?
• Or maybe knots are real but grid is so big that time has to be even faster?
• Or what if its even more puzzling and unity fisheye lense making objects look smaller or bigger?

Maturin statement is somewhat incorrect and better be taken down from his signature (unlike mast 10 shot statement) because it can confuse others. 

He cannot proof that it is the speed 50 % faster and not the time, or grid, or lense or relative everything

 

As we said before.. because its the game we have to balance on feel. if it feels like 15 knots it should be called 15 knots. No other way, because it relates to you screen and the unity grid and the abstract time.

 

If it does not feel proper it should be lowered

[Scorpio Shirica]

Maturin data is incorrect. 

 

He says unity knots (nautical miles per hour are faster)

 

but

Grid is abstract

Time is abstract

Speed is abstract

 

Because there is theory of relativity and all dimensions are abstract there is no way to proof that his assumption is correct

 

For example.

• What if it is NOT speeds are 150% faster, but time is 50% faster and speed is normal?
• Or maybe .. what if time is 100% faster and speed is actually 50% slower?
• Or what if grid is 50% smaller?? Or its 100 bigger but time is faster and knots are slower?
• Or maybe knots are real but grid is so big that time has to be even faster?
• Or what if its even more puzzling and unity fisheye lense making objects look smaller or bigger?

Maturin statement is somewhat incorrect and better be taken down from his signature (unlike mast 10 shot statement) because it can confuse others. 

He cannot proof that it is the speed 50 % faster and not the time, or grid, or lense or relative everything

 

As we said before.. because its the game we have to balance on feel. if it feels like 15 knots it should be called 15 knots. No other way, because it relates to you screen and the unity grid and the abstract time.

 

If it does not feel proper it should be lowered

 

I trust devs who are professionals at game design over amateurs when it comes to feel though.

 

Feedback from players is good, but I trust you guys are testing it yourselves too? 

[maturin]

Sorry, but the game provides an objective frame of reference for space. We have HMS Victory and HMS Cerberus. We know how long they are in reality, and their relative dimensions are faithfully reproduced in the game. The Unity engine may not have feet, but you can derive a foot. Just cut a Trinc into 153 even slices.

 

Bottom line is this:

 

NA Victory at 10 knots can sail one shiplength up to 1.5 times faster than real-life Victory at 10 knots.

 

We're testers; kindly don't abuse Einstein to prevent us looking for the man behind the curtain.

[CommodoreWesley]

Gents, don't get bent out of shape by the Admin's comment.  

 

I've created a naval modification for Napoleon: Total War, so I understand what the Admin is talking about completely.

 

It is like comparing apples to oranges.  Most/all of the time, the values you put in the code do not have a real life measurement, therefore it is impossible for you to change something to be exactly accurate to real life data events.

 

All that I am comparing is the Essex to the rest of the ships in the game as that ensures for her balancing.  If I can compare something in the game to something else in the game, then they can be compared with each other properly and accurately because both are being modified by the same functions.  

 

Basically, instead of asking if a Essex can go 13 knots, the real question is "is an Essex is faster than a Belle Poule or not?"

 

I say yes, therefore, I set the Essex to be faster than the Belle Poule.  To do that, I set the max speed value to 13.  I can go to bed and wake up without worrying about the mathematical formulas and complexity of converting that 13 to make it be in exact accurate scale to the real world.

 

Anyway, back to the topic.

 

 

 

Unlike Belle Poule, Essex has full barricades/bulwarks on the quarterdeck and forecastle, which would protect the gunners much better. So that's one possible rationale for her high health.

 

Currently from my tests, the crew is very well protected on the Essex, as I hardly suffer casualties from ball shot from my sides (which is kinda ironic as she lost nearly half her crew due to ball when she was captured).  In my opinion however, I don't think that barricades/bulwarks would necessarily improve the structural integrity of the hull to resistance to water coming in, therefore shouldn't count much to the hitpoints.

[Malachi]

Her British service was sailing back to Britain after being captured following a hard-fought battle and one and half years at sea. It can hardly be expected to have shown her in her best light.

 

 

Oops, sorry, you´re right of course. Pulled the numbers from an excel sheet without looking up the actual sailing report first. Interesting that the captain added that Essex was 'equal to the Phoebe in her current state'.

 

Really, to be honest, she wasn't a 12-lber super-frigate.  I would call her an ordinary frigate.  

 

The reason why I kept the speed high is that she does have more modern lines, as well as having top royal sails.  The stats can be trimmed, and the sailing qualities might been due to the condition of the ship, being bombarded to lose 50% of the crew is obviously going to do irreversible damage to a ship.  Also she may of had a problem of hogging over time, she was reasonably pretty old for a frigate (15 years) by the War of 1812.

 

 

 

She was really large for her 12-pounder armament, that´s why I called a super frigate. Dunno about Essex being faster than the BP, she logged 10 knots ch, 12-13 knots large and 13 knots running in 1782, being 16 years old. *shrug*

 

And 'modern lines' can be a bit misleading, I don´t think any 12-pounder frigate ever surpassed the overall perfomance of the Alarm/Niger-class and they were designed in the mid-1750s.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Malachi

[maturin]

 

 

In my opinion however, I don't think that barricades/bulwarks would necessarily improve the structural integrity of the hull to resistance to water coming in, therefore shouldn't count much to the hitpoints.

If HP is meant to represent the ability of the hull to keep out water, then everything larger than a brig should have pretty much the same HP.

 

HP has to be abstracted, and yet tied to something rational and related to combat performance. It's a whole big discussion, really.

[jodgi]

But how can we comment on Essex' stats when us plebs can't peer review her performance? ^{Nudge, nudge}

[akd]

Well, we're slow so you plebs should be able to catch us and take one for review.

[CommodoreWesley]

But how can we comment on Essex' stats when us plebs can't peer review her performance? ^{Nudge, nudge}

 

Lol, you can just play the game and compare the ships that are already in.  There are actually quite a few ships that probably need tweeking, like the Trincomalee, but pretty much all ships need a bit of adjustment.  However, I do strongly support release more of the ships prepared for early access to more people so that we can fully test their stats out and balance them if necessary. (Like the Bucantare has a battle rating of 300 in the game files, and she's only a 80-third rate...)

 

This game is also still in alpha/beta.  Many of us here like testing things.

 

If HP is meant to represent the ability of the hull to keep out water, then everything larger than a brig should have pretty much the same HP.

 

HP has to be abstracted, and yet tied to something rational and related to combat performance. It's a whole big discussion, really.

 

Yes, I have read those discussions and they are very good, and I really hope that they do change.  I personally believe that smaller ships are a bit under armored while first rates are overly armored.  

 

I'll try and find that discussion, and try to put the Essex through the recalculations that others have proposed, however, the stats I suggested in the original post are really only there to balance her with the other ships currently in the game.

 

However, stats in general do need to be worked on, but we can suggest and discuss changes on the forum while we still have the chance to talk about them.

Edited January 8, 2016 by CommodoreWesley

[Lord Vicious]

beside a little of extra turn speed that imho lack  i think essex is fine, (maybe a little less armor like 3500-3700)  we really needed something for feel the gap between  belle  and trinco. 

 

btw i think that frigates in general should need a 20% extra armor/hp.  (all from belle >  to cerberus)

[OlavDeng2]

Lol, you can just play the game and compare the ships that are already in.  There are actually quite a few ships that probably need tweeking, like the Trincomalee, but pretty much all ships need a bit of adjustment.  However, I do strongly support release more of the ships prepared for early access to more people so that we can fully test their stats out and balance them if necessary. (Like the Bucantare has a battle rating of 300 in the game files, and she's only a 80-third rate...)

 

This game is also still in alpha/beta.  Many of us here like testing things.

 

 

Yes, I have read those discussions and they are very good, and I really hope that they do change.  I personally believe that smaller ships are a bit under armored while first rates are overly armored.  

 

I'll try and find that discussion, and try to put the Essex through the recalculations that others have proposed, however, the stats I suggested in the original post are really only there to balance her with the other ships currently in the game.

 

However, stats in general do need to be worked on, but we can suggest and discuss changes on the forum while we still have the chance to talk about them.

I agree, more ships need to be released to the public for testing before early access

 

also, regarding bucentaure, she currently has a battle rating of 700 

[CommodoreWesley]

 

 

beside a little of extra turn speed that imho lack  i think essex is fine, (maybe a little less armor like 3500-3700)  we really needed something for feel the gap between  belle  and trinco. 

 

btw i think that frigates in general should need a 20% extra armor/hp.  (all from belle >  to cerberus)

 

 

Yes, I do think we need ships to fill the gap, say some 44-48 gun frigates armed with 18-pounders, however, my argument is that the Essex from her design is not the ship meant to fight against the Trinco.

[Puchu]

Some testing experience feedback:

 

In small battles, fighting the essex with my surprise, i get no ai support in the surprise, but its almost impossible fighting a 4,8k hp essex with my 2,2k surprise and she has 380 crew vs my 240 crew and a very comparable turn rate. Judging from the fact that i didnt get any ai reinforcements, the game thinks those ships are even... they are not! I can kill constitutions in the surprise because i can outturn them. But killing the essex is basically impossible.

 

You cant outturn her, you cant outgun her, you cant broadside trade, you cant go near her, you basically cant fight her in a surprise at all. 

 

I'm not saying you should be able to fight her in a surprise. Just if the game has equal br for those 2 ships, then something is clearly off.

[OlavDeng2]

Some testing experience feedback:

 

In small battles, fighting the essex with my surprise, i get no ai support in the surprise, but its almost impossible fighting a 4,8k hp essex with my 2,2k surprise and she has 380 crew vs my 240 crew and a very comparable turn rate. Judging from the fact that i didnt get any ai reinforcements, the game thinks those ships are even... they are not! I can kill constitutions in the surprise because i can outturn them. But killing the essex is basically impossible.

 

You cant outturn her, you cant outgun her, you cant broadside trade, you cant go near her, you basically cant fight her in a surprise at all. 

 

I'm not saying you should be able to fight her in a surprise. Just if the game has equal br for those 2 ships, then something is clearly off.

according to the game files, the essex has a BR of 200 while the Surprise has a BR of 140, so their BR is definitely not equal... so something else must have been wrong in that instance.

[jodgi]

Can one of you Essex guys help me get a speed profile done for her?