[REQ] Aiming mode UI

[-KM-]

Idea about the idea about the red line aming UI. I like when skill matter more than xp but it an MMO will most probably have elements of skill improvment for the crew over time. It is likely that a skilled guncrew could anticipate the waves and heel better than an unskilled one. So maybe the "locked red line" despite waves would be somehting that you could unlock by earning xp for your crew. It is a small advantage but not big enough for a skilled opponen to overcome.

Edited February 23, 2015 by -KM-

[admin]

I personally hope that you will not go with the locked red line (locked aim). I know it will make it easier. Especially in stormy seas. But part of the charm is the challange, and that is including the challange to cope with the waves and heel when aiming.

 

It will have a relative lock so to speak. System will stay the same, but it will not be pushed down when your ship heels - you won't be able to shoot unless you move it down into the allowed spread (highest - lowest elevation).

[Thalion]

Adding the highest and lowest point of elevation will be a great addition without much effect in the aiming mechanic as it is right now. And i really do like and enjoy the current mechanic, because it is a compromise of easy to use (with the automatic elevation compensation while shooting) and skill / experience (in ranging and keeping track of that spot). If it will become even more simplistic and easier, skill an experience will get neglected too much - welcome Naval Arcade Action. Don't get me wrong, i do not have perfect gunnery nor sailing skills, but i like good long range shots to be difficult. Combat will be much more rewarding then.

[Austrum]

You have to keep something very important in mind.  In the 1700s, they didn't even have a red line to assist with aiming, everything was done by eyeballing and guessing plus each gun was laid in by an individual gunner that used their own eyeballs and own best guess so there was absolutely zero consistency in accuracy on a real 1700s ship.   The harsh reality is that right now, we already have absolutely amazing accuracy compared to the realities of seafaring life in the 1700s.  Anything more than what we currently have would totally break anything approaching immersion and reality

[Noobdelux]

In my opinion for one that have just started playing this game. I realy like the way it is now.

It is frustrating sometimes now but i like it. It is simple and imo easy!

[Johny Reb]

It will have a relative lock so to speak. System will stay the same, but it will not be pushed down when your ship heels - you won't be able to shoot unless you move it down into the allowed spread (highest - lowest elevation).

Could you not also try a spring back? Meaning that if heel forces the bar down then the bar will spring back up when the heel is reduced assuming you don't move your mouse.

 

 

@kngsbrg... earlier in this post you asked abut other threads that dealt with this issue and one of the moderators posted a few. I just wanted to add that the testers debated this at length. I think I was in the second round of "testers" to be invited and at that time the mode of aiming was probably the hottest topic. Is was through those discussions that we even got the ranging shot. Their was and still is a tester forum that is locked to non testers and explains why you haven't seen these lengthy discussions.

[Kngsbrg]

I will not react to the posts stating their feelings towards the current aiming mechanic in general and neglecting my remarks upon a minor, but troublesome problem which occurs in a very specific scenario.

 

You have to keep something very important in mind.  In the 1700s, they didn't even have a red line to assist with aiming, everything was done by eyeballing and guessing plus each gun was laid in by an individual gunner that used their own eyeballs and own best guess so there was absolutely zero consistency in accuracy on a real 1700s ship.   The harsh reality is that right now, we already have absolutely amazing accuracy compared to the realities of seafaring life in the 1700s.  Anything more than what we currently have would totally break anything approaching immersion and reality

 

The little red bar is their eyeballing and their guessing. The little red bar is in no way part of the guns or anything, it is simply the order for the gunners where to shoot! Nothing else. It is not their crosshair or their lining up of the shot, it is the commanding officers order where to train their guns at. If they have their guns set up right or not and if they hit or not is not part of the little red bar.

 

On a side note, we are talking early 19th century sailing ships, many of whom having guns on the open deck. Gunner could hit stuff under mild conditions, I do not say they could snipe a seagull from 15km, but to say they did not know if their cannon ball would fly 50m or 500m is a vast understatement.

 

Again, the precision of the gunnery in its current form is, in my eyes, very much in question. Deviation and mean are way too consistent, ranging is way too good. All those people crying about how they do not want this turned into Naval Action Arcade, this is already Naval Action Arcade. It does not take skill to hit things even on range. Just saying.

 

Edit:

 

Could you not also try a spring back? Meaning that if heel forces the bar down then the bar will spring back up when the heel is reduced assuming you don't move your mouse.

 

 

@kngsbrg... earlier in this post you asked abut other threads that dealt with this issue and one of the moderators posted a few. I just wanted to add that the testers debated this at length. I think I was in the second round of "testers" to be invited and at that time the mode of aiming was probably the hottest topic. Is was through those discussions that we even got the ranging shot. Their was and still is a tester forum that is locked to non testers and explains why you haven't seen these lengthy discussions.

 

Thank you, this was probably the case. Your proposal is spot on, something like that would come in mind and would definitly serve as a solution!

Edited February 23, 2015 by Kngsbrg

[Leviathan]

It will have a relative lock so to speak. System will stay the same, but it will not be pushed down when your ship heels - you won't be able to shoot unless you move it down into the allowed spread (highest - lowest elevation).

I trust your judgement but be careful adding many training wheels.

[mouse of war]

I'm happy with the current solution

[Hodggoblin]

What you(Kngsbrg) are asking for sounds like it just a few steps short of an aim bot.  It is currently not that hard to aim in the game.  Use the ship you are aiming at for a reference of where your red line was before you shot. Learn to compensate for waves. Mess with your sails to adjust the heeling of your ship to get a shot.

What the admin is saying seems to be pretty good and could be an understandable sacrifice for the benifit of the game.  Although, it currently is not hard to aim.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Hodggoblin

[Noobdelux]

Kngsbrg... I suddenly had a thought, are you looking for a harder way to aim and hit or an easier way?

[Kngsbrg]

What the admin is saying seems to be pretty good and could be an understandable sacrifice for the benifit of the game.  Although, it currently is not hard to aim.

 

As said, I ignore your "beginner how to" tipps, because they have nothing to do with what I am describing, but thank you for trying. And no, this is in no way a aimbot --Disrespectful Content Edited - H. Darby--

 

Your other remark, what the admin said is exactly my solution A in the very first post, so what is your point exactly?

 

Kngsbrg... I suddenly had a thought, are you looking for a harder way to aim and hit or an easier way?

 

As for the problem, neither. It is merely about eliminating a unwanted effect that has nothing to do with skill.

 

As for aiming in general, I would love to see it tweaked to be less accurate, but this to decide is not my paygrade.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Removed disrespectful content.

[Austrum]

The aim will be improved at a later stage. Highest and lowest possible point will be added. We will also try to implement the feature to test where the red line will stay locked if you ship heels and will not be forcibly moved down. 

 

 

Please, Please no.  I am so sick of easy mode games it isn't even funny.  Shooting is already too accurate in this game.   I mean often I have no problems getting an entire broadside to land on an enemy ship at near max range as is when in reality, the simple fact that every gun would have to have been individually aimed in real life would make that a near impossibility.  We seriously don't need any enhanced accuracy as all it does is trivalize the game and cater to people unwilling to learn how to use ranging shots and adjust aim on the fly.  Please, Please don't take skill out of the game.

[Hethwill]

Austrum, what Admin said is that they will evaluate the possibility of mimic the guns spiked in place, with preset angles wooden wedges most of the time even if the ship heels. You will lose the aim of course but you won't angle.

 

Given the dynamics of the battle at the moment, steady strong wind, ships always carried at optimum speed even on gales, I see too little usefulness if the effort to code it in is too big.

[BusterGut]

I like the way it is now, especially if you use a trackball (as long as you keep the ball/contacts clean) as its possible to get  a lot smaller increments on movement than a mouse.

[Tief N Tote]

I like the aiming the way it is may be you should add a poll but I think you will find most people like the idea that aiming requires a bit of skill

[Kngsbrg]

Please, Please no.  I am so sick of easy mode games it isn't even funny.  Shooting is already too accurate in this game.   I mean often I have no problems getting an entire broadside to land on an enemy ship at near max range as is when in reality, the simple fact that every gun would have to have been individually aimed in real life would make that a near impossibility.  We seriously don't need any enhanced accuracy as all it does is trivalize the game and cater to people unwilling to learn how to use ranging shots and adjust aim on the fly.  Please, Please don't take skill out of the game.

 

 

I like the way it is now, especially if you use a trackball (as long as you keep the ball/contacts clean) as its possible to get  a lot smaller increments on movement than a mouse.

 

 

I like the aiming the way it is may be you should add a poll but I think you will find most people like the idea that aiming requires a bit of skill

 

--Disrespectful Content Edited - H. Darby--

 

Have you read anyhting I wrote? You guys talk about aiming being easy at it is and I never ever said something else or something to change that, but you suggest taking ranging shots and in this very thing I proposed to have a closer look at a problem at hand that has nothing to do with aiming itself.

 

--Personal Attack Edited - H. Darby--

Edited February 24, 2015 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Edited for multiple rules violations.

[Brigand]

People are reading and commenting on each others posts just as much as they react to yours. I must admit that -by reading your first couple of post- at first I also thought that what you proposed boiled down to something that would make the game easier.

 

By now, it is clear that you do not want the aiming easier or aiming more precise? Yet I'm still not clear on what/how you would like things changed. Could you maybe rephrase what you said earlier, scattered around several post, into some sort of summary for those (like me) who still haven't got the picture? It may help getting your topic back on the more organized discussion track.

 

Cheers,

Brigand

[Spharv2]

What he's asking for is for the aim bar (when at maximum elevation) to not be forced downward by the ship movement.  Unlocking the actual physical barrier to aiming above max elevation.  So if you have your guns at max elevation, and your ship rolls, the aimpoint is forced downward since you cannot currently aim above the maximum elevation.  He's not asking to be able to fire like that, just for the aim point to remain where it is and not be forced downward.

[Hethwill]

But the aim point keeps up with the minimum and maximum angles possible for all guns. If you aim the middle and the ship heels above or below those max/min angles that is when the bar moves as well.

 

To achieve the effect we would need a second aim bar with a fixed elevation, like a ghost of the first.

 

All in all I find it very confusing. We have free aim but historically it was not that free aim, more like preset angles with wood wedges. Second, during reload angles are lost as wedges are removed.

 

As brigand requests, a more clear explanation would be nice and completely forgetting any UI element to be added like vertical angle indicator.

[Hodggoblin]

A solution to this could be

 

A. to turn the IRAB blue, if lRAB is out of possible gun solution and to remove it from the heeling lockup! This way, we would know if heeling has changed the elevation and would NOT FIRE in good believe that nothing has changed.

 

B. to increase the cannon spread (as is way more realistic) and give us better elevatoin indicators. Again, the gunners knew their guns, they knew what elevation would get what range.

What you are suggesting seems a few steps away from an aim bot to me because (what I get out of this) is that you want there to be, either, an indication for your guns current fireing range and the range of the ship you are fireing at (as if the crew knew the precise or approximate distance from one ship to their own) via a change of color in the red line used to show your guns angle.  Also, you ask for your red line to be lockable so that you dont have to reaim when your ship heels or moves.  If you look at the red lines possition in relation to the ship you are fireing at, you can already do this.  The reason is said that what the admin is saying COULD be okay is that I understand that sacrifices are for the the betterment of the game(increasing the community size by making the game a little easier).

 

I am sad to see you ignoring the "beginner how to tips" that you need to learn at least one of them to solve your problem, i.e. using the red lines possition in relation to the ship you are fireing at.  What the admin posted in not exactly your solution, as shown by my quote of your original post above.  You want the game to tell you if you have a good fireing solution or not, istead of using ranging shots to figure that out for yourself.  You also dont want to use your sails to alievate your heeling problems when shooting. 

[Hethwill]

 

 

B. to increase the cannon spread (as is way more realistic) and give us better elevatoin indicators. Again, the gunners knew their guns, they knew what elevation would get what range.

 

Again you are not reading or you are simply ignoring all data and research and historians live re-enactments.

 

This is a game which compromises all of that. So let us see again...

 

Crews knew maximum and minimal elevations, also somewhere in between and cut wood to let the guns rest at a wanted angle. They could not be fine tuning the gun, especially nothing above 6 pounders.

 

Also all angle in lost when gun is pulled back and barrel is fully elevated for reload cycle.

 

The best solution the community has done so far, which is not that far from the truth is adapt each volley to the visual references by range estimation - top sail, mid mast, high deck, waterline. These 4 range from pistol range to 800 yards.

 

Estimation of range in game is very accurate and the gun crews had to estimate range as well back in the day.

 

A curious thing is that below decks you have only a hole with no other visual reference other than the target, making distance estimations challenging at their easy level.

 

What else is needed ? Preset elevation lock ?

 

To be honest Kngsbrg, we do not understand what you are asking and most of us can only think of a "tracking aim" hence the antagonistic posts regarding your idea.

 

S!

 

 

 

[Kngsbrg]

To be honest Kngsbrg, we do not understand what you are asking and most of us can only think of a "tracking aim" hence the antagonistic posts regarding your idea.

 

 

I am sad to see you ignoring the "beginner how to tips" that you need to learn at least one of them to solve your problem.

 

It makes me sad to read this. Very sad.

[Hodggoblin]

It makes me sad to read this. Very sad.

Why not try explaining it in a different way that those who dont understand what your asking for may understand?

Why not try to correct where you think what I am getting out of you said is the wrong conclusion on my part?

[Johny Reb]

The aim will be improved at a later stage. Highest and lowest possible point will be added. We will also try to implement the feature to test where the red line will stay locked if you ship heels and will not be forcibly moved down. 

Because of the above I don't really see why you all are still arguing over this. The devs recognize that there may be a problem with the current system and are looking into experimenting with it. Maybe what kngsbrg wants will come in these experiments. I think its just time to wait till we try the new system.