US Super Battleship (v74)

[Shaftoe]

How does one reliably beat this mission in v74?

I had better luck in earlier versions, although I never was able to win. But in v74 it appears to be outright impossible. The odds stacked against the player so much that it's just competely overwhelming.

Supposedly "older", but still very well-armed and armored Japanese battleships hold 3v1 numerical advantage, plus they are screened by several DD squadrons, which a) spot for them, thus enabling enemy BBs to fire at the player from beyond detection range, and b) are perfectly capable of approaching and sinking (rushing) the player with impunity.

And as if all that wasn't enough, there's also an extremely powerful Japanese super battleship coming in fast. I tried this way too many times, but whatever I build, whatever I do - either way, the enemy always wins. It's like Kobayashi Maru of UA:D's Naval Academy. And it certainly didn't become any better than it was - as of this patch, it feels like it was only made worse

So, let's just do some counting, shall we?

• 1 enemy super battleship (arriving just in time to finish off the sinking/burning wreck of player's ship)
• 3 enemy battleships (enjoying the benefit of spotting from their DDs, firing on player from beyond detection range, and successfuly tanking most incoming hits from 18")
• 8 enemy destroyers (armed with very powerful long range torpedoes, and enjoying protection granted by their high speed/evasion and smoke screens)

vs

• 1 player's super battleship (either a slow fortress or a quick brawler - neither approach works, not even mentioning "realistic" designs).

 

Now, please, enlighten me - how in hell do you beat all that (enemy's numerical advantage, firepower advantage, torpedo advantage, range/spotting advantage, tactical agility advantage, etc.) with only a single BB? 

P. S. Lucky wins don't count.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Shaftoe

[Hangar18]

when in doubt

18" lydite

[Shaftoe]

6 minutes ago, Hangar18 said:

when in doubt

18" lydite

It didn't work... It did not work.

[o Barão]

18 inch belt armor ; 18 inch belt armor extended.

14 inch deck armor; 14 inch deck armor extended.

Ignore the barbettes and citadel upgrades.

Rush the enemy  at flank speed until you are around 15km away from the enemy BBs. At this range you are invincible against their guns except the super BBS that is coming.

Zig Zag to avoid torpedoes.

 

I didn't tried this mission with the new update. Probaly is going to be very difficult now to kill those dds with the secondaries now.

 

 

[Shaftoe]

2 minutes ago, o Barão said:

18 inch belt armor ; 18 inch belt armor extended.

14 inch deck armor; 14 inch deck armor extended.

Ignore the barbettes and citadel upgrades.

Rush the enemy  at flank speed until you are around 15km away from the enemy BBs. At this range you are invincible against their guns except the super BBS that is coming.

Zig Zag to avoid torpedoes.

 

I didn't tried this mission with the new update. Probaly is going to be very difficult now to kill those dds with the secondaries now.

 

 

DDs just throw super torpedo spreads at you. Super-armored BB, even equipped with the best engine tech, just can't stay close to enemy BBs long enough to get the job done. Sooner or later, another torpedo spread gets you. I assume that, with some luck, it might work - after all luck is an essential part of any successful rush... But my point was: luck shouldn't be a major factor.

[Hangar18]

Tried, ran out of ammo even with 3 flash fires (on the same ship)

[Shaftoe]

6 minutes ago, Hangar18 said:

Tried, ran out of ammo even with 3 flash fires (on the same ship)

Yeah, if you try kiting, you either run out of ammo, or out of time. Happened to me, too.

[Hangar18]

56 minutes ago, Shaftoe said:

Yeah, if you try kiting, you either run out of ammo, or out of time. Happened to me, too.

still think we have a bit of a zombie ship issue. You can pound ships into the dirt all you want. dozens upon dozens of even 18" shells can be ineffective to ship that are already on deaths door.

[PainGod]

9 hours ago, Shaftoe said:

It didn't work... It did not work.

 

[BobRoss0902]

8 hours ago, Hangar18 said:

still think we have a bit of a zombie ship issue. You can pound ships into the dirt all you want. dozens upon dozens of even 18" shells can be ineffective to ship that are already on deaths door.

Zombie ships happened plenty of times historically, in fact I'd argue zombie ships were more common than sinking ships, what really mattered was repair time and if it got to port (neither of which custom battles nor naval academy take into account)

The only real times a ship is truly doomed is an unfixable speed death, in which case the enemy comes to you at their pleasure and pound you into dust, and even then there have been cases of ships surviving speed deaths.

IRL sinking a ship is abnormal, and uncommon, damage and repair time is what matters.

Edited June 13, 2020 by BobRoss0902

[o Barão]

10 hours ago, Shaftoe said:

DDs just throw super torpedo spreads at you. Super-armored BB, even equipped with the best engine tech, just can't stay close to enemy BBs long enough to get the job done. Sooner or later, another torpedo spread gets you. I assume that, with some luck, it might work - after all luck is an essential part of any successful rush... But my point was: luck shouldn't be a major factor.

You are right. I did some testing and it is just to hard now to hit those dds. I manage to sink the dds without getting hit by a torpedo doing circles but doens't always work so it is luck i guess and is just stupid to watch the BB doing an circle for the most part of the battle.

Interesting the torpedo Banzai mission now is easy to do. The accuracy needs a buff to hit those dds if they get to close.

[Shaftoe]

2 hours ago, BobRoss0902 said:

Zombie ships happened plenty of times historically, in fact I'd argue zombie ships were more common than sinking ships, what really mattered was repair time and if it got to port (neither of which custom battles nor naval academy take into account)

The only real times a ship is truly doomed is an unfixable speed death, in which case the enemy comes to you at their pleasure and pound you into dust, and even then there have been cases of ships surviving speed deaths.

IRL sinking a ship is abnormal, and uncommon, damage and repair time is what matters.

So what, because it happened historically, should certain missions remain practically unbeatable? Realism is good, but when it's adequately realistic. Here, we have inadequate scenario with absurd winning conditions which cannot be satisfied without some sort of divine intervention. If "zombie ships" were considered to be dead - then that would be an improvement. But until then, talking of zombie ships like a normal and perfectly justifiabel reason for why certain missions should not be won is ridiculous.

[johnson smith]

have you try baitng their DD to waste all of their torp then charge in. BB can equip sonar  right ? 

Edited June 13, 2020 by johnson smith

[Shaftoe]

39 minutes ago, johnson smith said:

have you try baitng their DD to waste all of their torp then charge in. BB can equip sonar  right ? 

Dude, do you really, honestly believe it's all that simple? That this amazing idea of yours wasn't obvious to somebody who tried this so many times?

 

Well, I see that you don't, so let me enligthen you:

A. Super battleships are extremely sluggish. Even with the best sonar, you cannot detect dozens of incoming enemy torpedoes early enough to evade all of them every time. If you stay and fight, then sooner or later, some of those many torps (enemy has 8 DDs) will hit you, knocking out rudder, causing a bad flooding, or otherwise crippling your ship, thus making it an easier target for 4 enemy battleships.

B. Even if you completely forsake offensive actions and just run away and somehow dodge all incoming torpedoes, those enemy destroyers ARE spotting you. So initially 3, and then 4 enemy battleships are totally going to chase you down, and maul you into oblivion. You may not see them, but they will see you - and they will be firing all their guns, and they will be hitting you where it hurts. Eventually, they will wear you down. Or, you know, mission time will end and that's it.

C. You need to optimize your supper battleship for an extremely challenging artillery battle against 4 very capable battleships (and you're supposed to sink 3 of them). Your money and tonnage are not infinite. So, how do you suggest us to build a vessel equally capable of surviving and winning a protracted long range artillery battle with 3 advanced BBs + 1 super battleship, and at least surviving a continuous massed DD attack?
Do you actually understand how many super heavy shells that takes? How much high-quality armor you'll need? The size and amount of guns that requires? How extremely expensive all of that is? How much weight that adds? Yes, you may be able to build an unmovable floating fortress, but once you think you did - what about torpedo protection, speed and maneuverability?

 

Since v74, this mission is absurd, because it forces you to build an impossible ship, capable of singlehandedly defeating the game's key mechanics. One battleship, no matter how powerful, simply cannot do it all and still fit under budget. You cannot fight and defeat a well-equipped combined enemy force all by yourself (unless you get really lucky - but like I said, luck shouldn't be a factor). Developers should have at least given players an escorting DD squadron.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Shaftoe

[SiWi]

2 hours ago, Shaftoe said:

So what, because it happened historically, should certain missions remain practically unbeatable? Realism is good, but when it's adequately realistic. Here, we have inadequate scenario with absurd winning conditions which cannot be satisfied without some sort of divine intervention. If "zombie ships" were considered to be dead - then that would be an improvement. But until then, talking of zombie ships like a normal and perfectly justifiabel reason for why certain missions should not be won is ridiculous.

the problem is that the mission itself is nonsense from its design.

 

Why would 1 "Super battleship" fight alone agianst what would be most if not all enemy BB's and a DD screen alone?

[Shaftoe]

Just now, SiWi said:

the problem is that the mission itself is nonsense from its design.

 

Why would 1 "Super battleship" fight alone agianst what would be most if not all enemy BB's and a DD screen alone?

This mission is deeply flawed. It never worked in previous versions. And now it became much worse. 

[SiWi]

1 hour ago, Shaftoe said:

This mission is deeply flawed. It never worked in previous versions. And now it became much worse. 

that is kinda my problem with alot of missions.

They are pretty hard, for stupid reasons sometimes (no one can tell me that sinking "HMS Prince of Wales" and not catching Hood (thou drastically damage) would have counted as a German loss in the Battle of the Danemark strait).

And while I probably could beat them (I did "clear" the game a couple of times before new missions came)), I see no joy in something where trial and error seems to be the most dominant. 

[Shaftoe]

22 minutes ago, SiWi said:

And while I probably could beat them (I did "clear" the game a couple of times before new missions came)), I see no joy in something where trial and error seems to be the most dominant. 

The worst thing is... It's trial and error up until the point when you get lucky. Which means it's poorly balanced and extremely inconsistent. While that is to be expected from an alpha build, in my opinion developers should move towards more tangible mechanics, predictable tendencies and realism. What we have now... is just a sad RNG fest - and while it may somehow work in more-or-less plausible scenarios, missions like US Super Battleship show how many problems are still unsolved.

[kadm]

Just for lulz I tried to go with a pair of "small and agile" BBs with lots of torps.

I almost succeeded. Managed to dodge all torpedoes and sink all DDs.  Unfortunately BBs killed me first, anti-torp V on every BB T.T

Sunk one and damaged other two. If the enemy rolls BBs without anti-torp V then it's quite doable. If not I guess it's still possible but would require many more tries. 

[arkhangelsk]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:29 PM, o Barão said:

You are right. I did some testing and it is just to hard now to hit those dds. I manage to sink the dds without getting hit by a torpedo doing circles but doens't always work so it is luck i guess and is just stupid to watch the BB doing an circle for the most part of the battle.

Interesting the torpedo Banzai mission now is easy to do. The accuracy needs a buff to hit those dds if they get to close.

Really. Because I have been getting my butt kicked in that mission (with them killing my DDs and not presenting straight courses so I can launch effective torpedo attacks...) Increasing the maximum speed malus from 90-95% may be working out.

[o Barão]

41 minutes ago, arkhangelsk said:

Really. Because I have been getting my butt kicked in that mission (with them killing my DDs and not presenting straight courses so I can launch effective torpedo attacks...) Increasing the maximum speed malus from 90-95% may be working out.

The trick is coming from both sides at the same time, using fast torpedoes and use them only at close ranges and detach all dds. So basically you come with 3 dds from one side and 3 from the other side. The enemy BBs with try to runaway the moment they see your dds coming but they will run toward your other dd division. However you will need to detach all dds and do a micro manage all of them. ( avoiding torpedoes ) and always set torpedo attack to off and only fire when you are really close.

 

But IMO now it feels stupid with this new patch. It shouldn't be that hard to hit those dds at close ranges with the secondary.

[Cptbarney]

I find this mission pretty hard as well, mainly because your guns aren't able to kill quick enough or because the enemy super bb is able to do significant damage before you can kill 2+ and then the smoll dd's come along and just lob 22-24inch torpedeos one after another.

And when that happens your bb's control goes to pot and well decides to spin on the spot and do doughtnuts instead.

Im glad we will have the campaign to look forward to lol.

[Nick Thomadis]

Try this:

DESIGN
- Make a BB which can support a battery of 5 triple turrets, preferably 17-inch caliber or 18-inch. Why? Because many guns of uniform caliber aim progress faster.
- Choose Tube Powder/Super Heavy Shells. Why? You need to penetrate "Deck armor" like Bismarck did to Hood, at long ranges.
- Your secondary guns do not need to be higher than 6-inches. Why? You need the rate of fire to hit consistently the DD and slow them down. 8-inch guns, while powerful, are not optimal for defending against very fast targets. You will need many of them to produce a good aiming sequence, but they will cost weights that you need for your main battery and protection.
- Do not ignore (as advised above) any equipment that increases your protection level. Bulkheads and armor are not the only ways to protect your ship. 
- Choose a top speed of about 27 knots, so there is enough weight to use for the above.
 

I auto-designed a battleship that serves the mentioned idea:

BATTLE:
- You try to keep distance from the enemy at about 27 km and align your ship course to match the broadside of the enemy with a slight angle, so that you slowly gain distance and your fire control systems can keep a steady aim. You NEVER charge the enemy (As stated above), you do not approach at a distance that the enemy BBs can start shooting at you with effectiveness. Why? Because your single battleship is not meant to fight versus destroyers, is not meant to "tank" hundreds of enemy shells in "fast forward mode" and win. The lesson in this mission is to keep your ship at an effective immunity firing zone, with patience, while you are able to consistently damage the enemy warships.

- Watch your accuracy to be at about 6%. Not more is needed, to get at least one hit in one or two salvos. Cruising speed helps to increase your accuracy, while your maneuvers must be gentle and progressive. 

Here is an image showing what must be the angle of maneuver for your ship in relation to your target, so that aiming can progress effectively:

Green arrows show roundly that you must keep a broadside to your target to maximize your aim. Red arrows show that if you start approaching with large speed (or the opposite) you deteriorate aiming for the given range.
 

If you follow my advice you will see that you will often succeed in sinking faster most if not all the enemy battleships (often with devastating ammo detonations in a single hit) and the mission can succeed with much higher chance, while you are seldom hit or threatened by enemy destroyers.

Hope I helped.

PS.
Arguably the mission can become easier in a next update, but certainly it is not so hard unless the player wants to play the game impatiently and with fast forward to the max.

[o Barão]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

Try this:

DESIGN
- Make a BB which can support a battery of 5 triple turrets, preferably 17-inch caliber or 18-inch. Why? Because many guns of uniform caliber aim progress faster.
- Choose Tube Powder/Super Heavy Shells. Why? You need to penetrate "Deck armor" like Bismarck did to Hood, at long ranges.
- Your secondary guns do not need to be higher than 6-inches. Why? You need the rate of fire to hit consistently the DD and slow them down. 8-inch guns, while powerful, are not optimal for defending against very fast targets. You will need many of them to produce a good aiming sequence, but they will cost weights that you need for your main battery and protection.
- Do not ignore (as advised above) any equipment that increases your protection level. Bulkheads and armor are not the only ways to protect your ship. 
- Choose a top speed of about 27 knots, so there is enough weight to use for the above.
 

I auto-designed a battleship that serves the mentioned idea:

BATTLE:
- You try to keep distance from the enemy at about 27 km and align your ship course to match the broadside of the enemy with a slight angle, so that you slowly gain distance and your fire control systems can keep a steady aim. You NEVER charge the enemy (As stated above), you do not approach at a distance that the enemy BBs can start shooting at you with effectiveness. Why? Because your single battleship is not meant to fight versus destroyers, is not meant to "tank" hundreds of enemy shells in "fast forward mode" and win. The lesson in this mission is to keep your ship at an effective immunity firing zone, with patience, while you are able to consistently damage the enemy warships.

- Watch your accuracy to be at about 6%. Not more is needed, to get at least one hit in one or two salvos. Cruising speed helps to increase your accuracy, while your maneuvers must be gentle and progressive. 

Here is an image showing what must be the angle of maneuver for your ship in relation to your target, so that aiming can progress effectively:

Green arrows show roundly that you must keep a broadside to your target to maximize your aim. Red arrows show that if you start approaching with large speed (or the opposite) you deteriorate aiming for the given range.
 

If you follow my advice you will see that you will often succeed in sinking faster most if not all the enemy battleships (often with devastating ammo detonations in a single hit) and the mission can succeed with much higher chance, while you are seldom hit or threatened by enemy destroyers.

Hope I helped.

PS.
Arguably the mission can become easier in a next update, but certainly it is not so hard unless the player wants to play the game impatiently and with fast forward to the max.

Please forgive my poor english.

I understand your idea behind this but from my experience , even with increase payload if i am facing BBs with many bulkheads it seems i always run out of ammo before i can sink all 3 BBs. The other problem is the fact that if i am staying at 27km range i will need to have a thicker armoured deck and this can increase a lot of the weight of the ship. In comparison the same armour thickness in the belt area weight less.

Note: I didn't try with 5 triple turrets. Maybe with so many turrets i will have enough ammo.

16 hours ago, kadm said:

Just for lulz I tried to go with a pair of "small and agile" BBs with lots of torps.

I almost succeeded. Managed to dodge all torpedoes and sink all DDs.  Unfortunately BBs killed me first, anti-torp V on every BB T.T

Sunk one and damaged other two. If the enemy rolls BBs without anti-torp V then it's quite doable. If not I guess it's still possible but would require many more tries. 

 You are right.

2 times i did this missions with 2 BBs with the most possible number in secondaries in the bow and side and the stern full with torpedoes with fast speed.

Both times i had similar experience. One BB would rush between the DDs doing zig zag to avoid most the torpedoes and the other one would rush the BB leading the division supporting the DD killing. Eventually all dds are going to die and the BBs will not survive the torpedo attacks at close range even with many bulkheads and torp V.

Screenshots:

https://imgur.com/OcuxtgC

https://imgur.com/3c93B95

https://imgur.com/78WDN0u

https://imgur.com/cPgzJBE

https://imgur.com/IGy9urXhttps://imgur.com/IGy9urX

 

 

[Shaftoe]

@Nick Thomadis

My BB is very similar to yours, all critical requirements match. I even acted very similarly to what you described. But I had the problem that enemy destroyers completely ignore 6" secondaries and rush me with their torpedoes, thus forcing to evade them or sinking me 

Despite doing almost exactly the same thing you did several times - my ship quickly lost sight of enemy BBs, but they just kept lobbing shells (and torpedoes) at me with impunity. That's the biggest problem here. The enemy can track and kill you with a variety of ways, when your only hope is your big guns limited by one ship's line of sight.

Hence why I suggested adding a 4-ship DD (gun-heavy auto design) division to the player's side, and degrading Japanese' technology a bit.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Shaftoe