[suggestion] Shallow ports hostility

[van der Clam]

@admin @Ink I'm still confused as to why 1st rates are allowed to raise hostility against a shallow port. This should've been changed like a long time ago.

[Hethwill]

post was split into its own suggestion

[Teutonic]

if someone decides to sail a deep water ship all the way to a hostility mission for a shallow water port - and the hostility happens to be in a deep water area, why shouldn't they?

the only limits are how much BR you need to grind to get the port.

Deep County Capital - 10,000

Deep Regional Port - 4,500

Shallow County Capital - 2,500

Shallow Regional Port - 1,000

 

Now pick the best way to grind these - if you find an enemy grinding a port in 1 st rate to flip it - then by gosh darn it it should be easy to sink him when there is no help.

[Archaos]

2 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

if someone decides to sail a deep water ship all the way to a hostility mission for a shallow water port - and the hostility happens to be in a deep water area, why shouldn't they?

I think the issue is more that it is impossible for some nations defending in these areas to field deepwater ships to counter the hostility. The attacking nation may decide to sail for an hour to raise the hostility but the defending nation do not have the time to sail their deepwater ships there to counter as the hostility would be over before they could arrive.

Hostility missions for shallow ports should be limited to shallow water ships.

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, Archaos said:

I think the issue is more that it is impossible for some nations defending in these areas to field deepwater ships to counter the hostility. The attacking nation may decide to sail for an hour to raise the hostility but the defending nation do not have the time to sail their deepwater ships there to counter as the hostility would be over before they could arrive.

Hostility missions for shallow ports should be limited to shallow water ships.

that's a fair point and I agree.

I just want folks to realize that if you limit hostility on shallow ports to shallow water ships you'll realize that grinding a shallow port will actually take longer then any deep water port AND it will become more difficult.

6 - 1st rates auto flip a regional town with 1 hostility. no warning

12 1st rates auto flip a county capital with 2 hostility mission split - the warning in combat news will not give you any time to muster a defense.

if you limit shallow ports to shallow ships this is what you have to muster if you want to "insta-flip" the port:

On average 6th rates spawn 6th rates looming between 50 - 70 BR - if you want to insta-flip a Shallow County Capital you need 40 players - the best ship to do this is a requin.

on average 5th rate shallow ships spawn medium sized deep water 5th rates (frigates, belle poules, essex, and with luck a cerb)- it is an incredibly difficult uphill battle for a surprise/herc/cerb, nonetheless the experience of attempting these missions has shown myself and my clan that you normally fight a belle which has double the hitpoints of a surprise :P. in this example you would need around 15 surprises to insta-flip the port - in most cases you'd have a few players sink unless you all did solo hostility.

What I'm getting at here, is for some reason you "would" need MORE players to flip shallow port than a deep water if you limited it to shallow ships as the mechanics currently are, it is actually advantageous for people to just ignore shallows and just fight deep water hostility missions. In order for me to agree to hostility missions being limited to shallow ships, you would need to fix the NPC spawn type for when a player uses the shallow water 5th rates - and even if the devs were to do this, on average you would still need more people than deep water missions.

try shallow water hostilities with shallow boats - I know the Brits have done them, would love to hear how they felt about them.

 

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

try shallow water hostilities with shallow boats - I know the Brits have done them, would love to hear how they felt about them.

We flipped Morgan's Bluff with 12 people (if I can remember correctly) and it took just 2 battles, one with 7 people the other with 5, both battles simultaneously, so for all intents it was still an insta flip. 

[van der Clam]

So the best way, imo, is to make the hostility per minute change on all hostility orders somehow.  Maybe there should be a penalty for using a larger ship than the port can handle....like the XP penalty for using a larger ship than your enemy.

For Shallow Ports using the following rates would lower your hostility point gain as such:

• 7th rates - 6th rates = no penalty
• 5th rates = minus 20% hostility points
• 4th rates = -30% hp
• 3rd rates = -45 % hp
• 2nd rates = -60 % hp
• 1st rates = -75% hp 

Somehow on shallow ports the hostility points gained using larger ships should EQUAL the same as using shallow water ships....(or just barely be more).

Or, better yet, tie this penalty to the BR of the ship....the higher the BR, the lower the HP gain.

[Hethwill]

19 minutes ago, van der Clam said:

5th rates = minus 20% hostility points

Cerberus, La Renommée, Surprise, Hercules are rank 5 and shallow ships.

 

 

[Severus Snape]

If you have the ability to screen a shallow port with a 1st, such is the case with La Guanaja, you should be able to flip it with any ship.  

[Hethwill]

3 minutes ago, Severus Snape said:

If you have the ability to screen a shallow port with a 1st, such is the case with La Guanaja, you should be able to flip it with any ship.  

Naked truth.

[AeRoTR]

Let shallow hostilities spawn on shallows? 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, AeRoTR said:

Let shallow hostilities spawn on shallows? 

You really cant in the case of La Guanaja.  The shallows is really just a sandbar across the harbour mouth.  Deep water at the pier and immediately outside.

[RubyRose]

4 hours ago, Archaos said:

We flipped Morgan's Bluff with 12 people (if I can remember correctly) and it took just 2 battles, one with 7 people the other with 5, both battles simultaneously, so for all intents it was still an insta flip. 

remember prior to release the hostility meter from battles was increased for testing purposes. 

[RubyRose]

4 hours ago, van der Clam said:

So the best way, imo, is to make the hostility per minute change on all hostility orders somehow.  Maybe there should be a penalty for using a larger ship than the port can handle....like the XP penalty for using a larger ship than your enemy.

For Shallow Ports using the following rates would lower your hostility point gain as such:

• 7th rates - 6th rates = no penalty
• 5th rates = minus 20% hostility points
• 4th rates = -30% hp
• 3rd rates = -45 % hp
• 2nd rates = -60 % hp
• 1st rates = -75% hp 

Somehow on shallow ports the hostility points gained using larger ships should EQUAL the same as using shallow water ships....(or just barely be more).

Or, better yet, tie this penalty to the BR of the ship....the higher the BR, the lower the HP gain.

there is no benefit to changing shallow water ports when its been known for over 2 years that u can use deep water ships to flip shallow water ports. nassau is a great example its been flipped multiple times with deep water ships 

[van der Clam]

4 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Cerberus, La Renommée, Surprise, Hercules are rank 5 and shallow ships.

True, to which I would suggest my footnote option of applying the penalty to the BR of the ship used, rather than by rate.

29 minutes ago, RubyRose said:

there is no benefit to changing shallow water ports when its been known for over 2 years that u can use deep water ships to flip shallow water ports. nassau is a great example its been flipped multiple times with deep water ships 

The benefit is the longer a hostility order takes, the longer time we have to find the mission and interrupt it. As it is now, insta-flip is awful. There literally is zero defense against hostility missions for shallow ports....which in turn means zero pvp as well. Of course, ppl will say you can insta-flip if you have enough ppl in multiple orders at the same time. But kudos to them for having the population to do so. Zergs will zerg anyway...unless there is some penalty they get for "over-population" or something. Also, how long would an order take if the max number of hostility points you got using a 1st rate were no more (but actually less) as you would get for using a Surprise?

TLDR; making hostility orders take longer will provide more time to defend ports and create more pvp in that area. (Otherwise, just remove the Combat News warning, as it is completely useless.)

[RubyRose]

10 minutes ago, van der Clam said:

True, to which I would suggest my footnote option of applying the penalty to the BR of the ship used, rather than by rate.

The benefit is the longer a hostility order takes, the longer time we have to find the mission and interrupt it. As it is now, insta-flip is awful. There literally is zero defense against hostility missions for shallow ports....which in turn means zero pvp as well. Of course, ppl will say you can insta-flip if you have enough ppl in multiple orders at the same time. But kudos to them for having the population to do so. Zergs will zerg anyway...unless there is some penalty they get for "over-population" or something. Also, how long would an order take if the max number of hostility points you got using a 1st rate were no more (but actually less) as you would get for using a Surprise?

TLDR; making hostility orders take longer will provide more time to defend ports and create more pvp in that area. (Otherwise, just remove the Combat News warning, as it is completely useless.)

if i'm not mistaken but doesnt BL4CK have like 80 members they could easily insta flip ports if their active enough to do so. soo not really a zerg nation. and why only bring this up now about shallows when its clear its only to benefit BL4CK who wanted to get the port from spain when we took 3 ships to set la guanja. 

if nations had issues with shallow port hostilities with deep water ships actually existed it would be been brought up long before now 

Edited September 5, 2019 by RubyRose

[Teutonic]

personally the way it is now is perfectly fine the way it is. only my opinion though.

[RubyRose]

1 hour ago, Spikes said:

Yeah, nothing really game-breakingly wrong with the current setup. Instaflips have been around for ages. Not to mention large 1st rate hostilities take some time and it only takes 1 person to spot it and sound off.

My humble suggestion if required in this suggestion thread would be capping the percentage at say 25% per mission? So no matter what it would require 4 missions? Would not effect a shallow as all you need is 4 separate missions with a couple 1sts in them but.../shrug

wouldnt really change it just be 4 battles stacked with the same ships that it would take to insta in 1 battle 

[van der Clam]

3 hours ago, RubyRose said:

if i'm not mistaken but doesnt BL4CK have like 80 members they could easily insta flip ports if their active enough to do so. soo not really a zerg nation. and why only bring this up now about shallows when its clear its only to benefit BL4CK who wanted to get the port from spain when we took 3 ships to set la guanja. 

if nations had issues with shallow port hostilities with deep water ships actually existed it would be been brought up long before now 

It was brought up years ago. And I have no clue about BL4CK's operations. I don't talk with them and this had nothing to do with them no any clan in particular. I was just surprised af to see 1st rates still can flip shallow ports. Makes no sense to me.