Balancing of Damage and Ships overall

[Tom Farseer]

The following suggestions should in conjunction with each other streamline the current ship list a bit:

On damage:

• Reduce gun damage overall by 20%
• Increase carronade dispersion by 20 to 30%
• EDIT: Drastically increase stern chaser dispersion (at least 50%)

On ship rates:

• Reclass USS Constituion and USS United States as 4th rates (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades)
• Reclass HMS Indefatigable as a 5th rate (no gameplay effect except for mission choice and historical accuracy)
• Reclass Cerberus as a 6th rate (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades, also historically accurate)
• Exception on this is the HMS Agamemnon, being a 3rd rate historically but a 4th rate in game. Not sure how to go about that one. I'd keep it as a 4th as 74s are just that much stronger...

On ship speeds:

• Decrease speed of all 4th rates by 0.5 knots
• Decrease speed of all 3rd and 2nd rates by 1 knot
• Decrease speed of all 1st rates by 1.5 knots
• EDIT: Turnrates should be slightly nerfed for all rates above 5th as well.

Desired effects:

1. Find a sweet spot in ship survivability vs satisfying broadside effects. With the numbers stated above SoLs will still smoke 6ths and light 5ths. But battles between evenly classed ships should end up being a bit more interesting and longer.
    
2. Counter the Speed-SoL-Problem by adjusting speeds overall.
    
3. Sort out the ship rates to better fit the british rating system.
    

Personally I'd love to see a test-bed round with those changes (and only those changes) applied. Exact numbers can then be tweaked afterwards.

 

EDIT: Number example to clarify effect of damage nerf: (EDIT-EDIT corrected carro numbers)

2 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

9 hours ago, Wyy said:

Reduce gun damage overall by 20% No it will make light frigates able to soak damage from sols

No it won't. Not in any way.

Example:
Teak/White Oak L'Hermione, medium sized frigate, currently has 6763 Armor HP and 6057 Structure HP.
A 3rd Rate carrying 28x 32pd long guns, 28x 18pd long guns and 18x 32pd carros does at current level 4658 dmg on a perfect broadside.
So two broadsides and L'Hermiones hull is gone. Three will kill it.

With 20% damage reduction one broadside will do 3726 dmg. 3 x 3726 = 11179. That is still almost the complete HP of L'Hermione (12820 total).

-20% damage on all guns will change almost nothing in SOL vs Frigate encounters! It is aimed at making battles between ships of the same rate last longer only!

I just realised that the example above uses old 32 pd carronade damage of 152. The post of @Felix Victor  (https://www.diffchecker.com/ZhVTfhlF) suggests a current value of 108.
That will result in Broadside damage of 4262 for 3rd rate. Three broadsides at -20% damage then are 10228. I would argue the point is still valid though.
 

Discuss! 😀

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Tom Farseer
findings of discussion below incorporated into OP

[Mr. Doran]

Everything makes sense except for the section on ship-rates. 

[Teutonic]

largely agree on all of this.

 

[Tom Farseer]

1 minute ago, Mr. Doran said:

Everything makes sense except for the section on ship-rates. 

Care to elaborate on that? 🙃

[Aerospace]

I would gradualy decrease cannon damage from biggest to smallest. 1st and 2nd should pack a punch. 

Carro damage/accuracy reduction. Plus single shot aiming accuracy reduction, plus removal of laser aiming system of stern chasers. 

[Mr. Doran]

Just now, Tom Farseer said:

Care to elaborate on that? 🙃

The Constitution has basically always performed as well as a third-rate. If super-frigates like Constitution are to be put into the fourth rate category they should suffer much higher penalties of maneuverability than they currently do or ever have. There was a very brief period in Sea-Trials when its handling characteristics were sufficiently difficult until the MuRiCA LIvE OAK crowd relentlessly demanded that it spin like a top. Same can really be said about all current fourth rates over-performing in terms of maneuverability from the perspective of balance. Indefatigable is definitely too stacked to be considered a fifth rate. The cerb, despite being a piece of shit, also has no business in 6th rate BR. 

[Aerospace]

Ah not to forget carros limited to chasers and upper decks only. 

Sorts out insane all carronade ship problem. 

[Bodye]

carros would be fine with dmg reduction

indef should stay as 4th rate because its ruining pvp zones (and thats why they moved it)

connies should go back to 4th rates 

cerberus could be 6th rate

aga is fine as 4th rate

speed decrease would be really welcome as mentioned above because frigates should be much faster then bellona

 

 

 

[Teutonic]

13 minutes ago, Bodye said:

carros would be fine with dmg reduction

indef should stay as 4th rate because its ruining pvp zones (and thats why they moved it)

connies should go back to 4th rates 

cerberus could be 6th rate

aga is fine as 4th rate

speed decrease would be really welcome as mentioned above because frigates should be much faster then bellona

 

 

 

I feel if we truly want to do something about 5th rate oppression we need to split 5th rates to light/medium/heavy. I think that would be too much work though.

but this seems a fair assessment for the ships that are in question.

[Tom Farseer]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

The Constitution has basically always performed as well as a third-rate. If super-frigates like Constitution are to be put into the fourth rate category they should suffer much higher penalties of maneuverability than they currently do or ever have. There was a very brief period in Sea-Trials when its handling characteristics were sufficiently difficult until the MuRiCA LIvE OAK crowd relentlessly demanded that it spin like a top.
- Connie currently turns at the same rate as a 74

Same can really be said about all current fourth rates over-performing in terms of maneuverability from the perspective of balance.
- You might have a point there. could be tested on the suggested test-bed run

Indefatigable is definitely too stacked to be considered a fifth rate.
- Suggested solution: Ban Carronades from main gun deck of heavy 5th rates alltogether. Also Carronade damage was nerfed by 30% in last hotfix (no official pathc notes but API data clarly shows it:  https://www.diffchecker.com/ZhVTfhlF . So Indef is no longer that stacked.

The cerb, despite being a piece of shit, also has no business in 6th rate BR. 
- BR is not neccessarily reflectant of ship rate. Keep her BR a 100 (same as Le Requiem), just change rate to reflect amount of guns and buff it slightly (books/upgrades)

 

[Mr. Doran]

1 minute ago, Tom Farseer said:

 

Con has same turn rate 74 = fourth rates may have too high of a turn rate = constitution is a fourth rate = constitution has too high of a turn rate

And its not the carronades that made the indef stacked. It is the fact it is 24 pound frigate with as much HP and maneuverability as it had allows to easily dominate all fifth rates in the right hands.  

[Tom Farseer]

3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Guns have been already nerfed.

You test more before proposing such %.

I took that into account. Otherwise a carro damage nerf would have been part of my suggestion. Of Meds and longs, only penetration was slightly adjusted. Maybe carro dmg can be increased again with increased dispersion. we would need to test that.

[Tom Farseer]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

Con has same turn rate 74 = fourth rates may have too high of a turn rate = constitution is a fourth rate = constitution has too high of a turn rate

so 4ths (that have generally shorter hulls, connie being the exception) should turn worse than 3rd rate Sols?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Mr. Doran]

Not approaching from the perspective of a naval architect just balancing. 

[Tom Farseer]

Why? Why should 4th turn worse than 3rds from a balancing aspect?

Shouldn't heavier, better armed and more durable ships turn worse from a balancing perspective?

[Mr. Doran]

4th rates shouldn't turn much worse than 3rd rates or higher from a balancing perspective. However, if fourth rates turn too quickly compared to what is beneath them then their turn rates should be reduced. If that makes them turn slower than third rates and larger then the turn rate of third rates and larger should be reduced. The over arching conclusion is then that everything the size of a fourth rate and larger turns too quickly. 

[Tom Farseer]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

4th rates shouldn't turn much worse than 3rd rates or higher from a balancing perspective. However, if fourth rates turn too quickly compared to what is beneath them then their turn rates should be reduced. If that makes them turn slower than third rates and larger then the turn rate of third rates and larger should be reduced. The over arching conclusion is then that everything the size of a fourth rate and larger turns too quickly.

I can get behind that. With turnrates adjusted Connie/US should be well at home in the 4th rate IMO... Inger and Wapen should still turn faster than US superfrigs (less hp, glass-cannon-y build). but overall trunrates of large ships can probably be nerfed without breaking the game...

[Mr. Doran]

Not to mention, it is not just turn-rates but over-all maneuverability. Acceleration, deceleration, and energy retention characteristics that fourth rates currently have are too high . If all these were brought in line fourth rates might actually require some skill to sail. 

[LeBoiteux]

2 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

Reclass Cerberus as a 6th rate (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades, also historically accurate)

All the in-game Frigates and the corvette that carried between 9-pdr guns on their Gun Deck and are currently classified 5th Rates in game must logically remain together (that is : HMS Cerberus, Pandora, Surprise and La Renommée) but, IMHO, not in the same 'Rate' as the heavier frigates such as :

• Frigates carrying 12-pdr gun : Belle Poule, L'Hermione
• Frigates carrying 18-pdr gun : Frigate, Pirate Frigate, Essex, Trincomalee
• Frigates carrying 24-pdr gun : Endymion , Indefatigable

5th Rate group being too broad certainly explains partly the reclassification of HMS Indefatigable as a 4th rate.

The historical UK rates dont have to be followed to the letter. There's a life outside them. They can be a bit rearranged.

(btw French classification by pdr as above is much better 😉)

Edited March 9, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[LeBoiteux]

A new rating system could be imagined for NA, mixing the historical British and French systems, with 8 'rates' :

1) The French system for the smaller ships (based on the pdr of guns or carronades) :

1. Ships carrying 6-pdr guns : Cutter, Lynx, Pickle, Privateer, Brig, Navy Brig, Snow, Rattlesnake, Prince...
2. Ships carrying 9-pdr guns : Niagara, LRQ, Hercule, HMS Cerberus, Pandora, Surprise, La Renommée...
3. Frigates carrying 12-pdr guns : Belle Poule, L'Hermione
4. Frigates carrying 18-pdr guns : Frigate, Pirate Frigate, Essex, Trincomalee
5. Frigates carrying 24-pdr guns : Endymion , Indefatigable...

2) The British system for the Sols (based on the number of guns) :

• 3rd-Rates : as actually in game
• 2nd-Rates : as actually in game
• 1st-Rates : as actually in game

Edited March 9, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[William Death]

Sounds good. 

Sounds an awful lot like our old damage model that worked quite well, needing only some tweaking to repairs and mechanics to make it easier for casuals to avoid "hugging tactics" and the lopsided battles where one SOL wrecks a bunch of noobs in 4th-2nd rates with the occasional 1st rate. 

 

And once again, rather than do a hard nerf to speeds across the board (which will do nothing but make combat more boring), its far better to implement diminishing returns for mod stacking, and eliminate the speed cap. Do this and re-diversify the sailing profiles as they used to be, and you won't need to worry about those speedfit SOLs because everything else can outrun them going upwind.

 

And I strongly urge everyone to forget about "rates" of ships, as that is absolutely meaningless...at least in terms of balance. Think about ships in terms of cannon caliber and cannon count. Then things make more sense. There will NEVER be balance in the rates....because no matter what you do, Cerberus (9pd frigate) will always be the underdog when fighting Trincomalee (18pd frigate). And thats fine. Just because its a "5th rate" doesn't mean all "5th rates" are equal in a battle. Cerberus has the advantage in that it can (or if the sailing model was correctly balanced for gameplay, it should) outrun Trincomalee. 

So, regarding Constitution as a 3rd rate...I don't care what you rate it. As long as performance is good enough to have reason to use it, and BR reflects this...it'll be ok. Right now poor Connie is slow and changing her to 3rd rate nerfed the books she can use, making her even worse. Constitution needed a *slight* buff (.30 kn speed buff)...instead she got nerfed. RIP.

 

And turn rates don't need to be nerfed anywhere. They need to be buffed back to where they were pre patch 30. The reason people call for SOL turn rate nerf now is because they weren't hit as hard in the across-the-board-nerf that all ships got. A frigate losing 10%+ of its turn rate is noticeable. A SOL losing 10% of its turn rate is....noticeable but not nearly as detrimental, since you're only playing the turn-fighting game when fighting ships smaller than you.

 

In short....undo all of patch 30 that relates to the combat model and *adjust* what we had. We've only traveled a short way down the path of re-inventing the wheel...its not too late to turn around go back to something what worked (at least better than the terrible damage model we currently have). Or...we can keep "tuning" this damage model....until we end up right back where we were, just with arbitrarily bigger numbers for the HP, thickness, cannon damage, penetration, etc.

[Slim McSauce]

I would prefer ship class up to 4th rate rate. So Cutter, Sloops, Brigs, corvettes, light frigate, frigate and heavy frigate, 3rd 2nd 1st rate. Indef, consti, and trinco would fall under heavy frigates and should be adjusted to fit a meta where they are the sort of SOL's of frigates, mostly through turn rate maybe speed too. Their fire power and armor is more than enough to warrant it. A 24pd frigate really eats the lunch of a 12 pounder, the difference is comparable to your average 6th rate vs a surprise in shallows, it's really one of those match ups where you need a 2v1 to make it even, same with medium frigates v heavy frigates, especially now so in the new DM.

[huliotkd]

9 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

On damage:

• Reduce gun damage overall by 20%   NO, we will go back to the old pre-patch game...absolutely no!! never again!
• Increase carronade dispersion by 20 to 30% NO; they have been already nerfed in damage so dispersion is too much
• EDIT: Drastically increase stern chaser dispersion (at least 50%) NO , just 20%

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Tom Farseer said:

The following suggestions should in conjunction with each other streamline the current ship list a bit:

On damage:

• Reduce gun damage overall by 20% No it will make light frigates able to soak damage from sols
• Increase carronade dispersion by 20 to 30% Yes Makes sence
• EDIT: Drastically increase stern chaser dispersion (at least 50%) Yes make them as disperive as bow chasers

On ship rates:

• Reclass USS Constituion and USS United States as 4th rates (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades) Yeo
• Reclass HMS Indefatigable as a 5th rate (no gameplay effect except for mission choice and historical accuracy) Could agree with 4th rate, but uss frigates needs to be in a range for themselves hp wise and the 4th rate sols needs more hp to stand in a line of battle
• Reclass Cerberus as a 6th rate (acts as buff via rate-specific books and upgrades, also historically accurate) if carronades are ballanced yes
• Exception on this is the HMS Agamemnon, being a 3rd rate historically but a 4th rate in game. Not sure how to go about that one. I'd keep it as a 4th as 74s are just that much stronger...

On ship speeds: yes to all down bellow, could also debate that  wood like fir wont do as much speed buff to the sols then the light ships e.g. ship knowledges books

• Decrease speed of all 4th rates by 0.5 knots
• Decrease speed of all 3rd and 2nd rates by 1 knot
• Decrease speed of all 1st rates by 1.5 knots
• EDIT: Turnrates should be slightly nerfed for all rates above 5th as well.

Desired effects:

1. Find a sweet spot in ship survivability vs satisfying broadside effects. With the numbers stated above SoLs will still smoke 6ths and light 5ths. But battles between evenly classed ships should end up being a bit more interesting and longer.
    
2. Counter the Speed-SoL-Problem by adjusting speeds overall.
    
3. Sort out the ship rates to better fit the british rating system.
    

Personally I'd love to see a test-bed round with those changes (and only those changes) applied. Exact numbers can then be tweaked afterwards.

Discuss! 😀

 

 

[Tom Farseer]

7 hours ago, huliotkd said:

On damage:

• Reduce gun damage overall by 20%   NO, we will go back to the old pre-patch game...absolutely no!! never again! No we won't. Old dmg model had inverse DPS. Bigger guns should still do more damage than smaller. decreasing dmg overall will not change that. My aim is finding a sweet spot between massive damage and ship survivability.
• Increase carronade dispersion by 20 to 30% NO; they have been already nerfed in damage so dispersion is too much Once dispersion has been adjusted, dmg can be adjusted up again. This is a suggestion for testing no numeric values in here are final in any way.
• EDIT: Drastically increase stern chaser dispersion (at least 50%) NO , just 20% meet you at 35?