Battle system core ruleset discussion

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Ellias said:

 

• "Demasting is the only skill in the game", granted.

?? what does it mean?

 

3 minutes ago, Ellias said:

 

• Need faster action, granted here is your DLC and Shallow patrol zones

dlc ships were promised in 2013 long before any requests. 

[Iroquois Confederacy]

What of the various concerns of how this will be exploited, such as having bait ships with warships logged out, ready to log in and "reinforce"?

How will you address otherwise equal 10BR difference fights from becoming 2v1?

How will you address the huge bias in favor of defensiveness, and encourage people to aggressively go out and sail, looking for fights?

What do you see as the purpose for the Open World?

[z4ys]

34 minutes ago, admin said:

they do. 25% of players who are less than 1 month old have at least 1 kill.
You are not that player (less than 30 days old) your perspective is distorted. 
30 days is a lot for a game. You can finish more than 90% of games on the market in less
 

new player dont even consider to be pvp rdy before they hit max rank. (in many games max rank is the lvl you can do max dmg and have all skills unlocked- NA is special here)

what most think about is:

how do i get xp fast? - Answer by vets: Do pve missions

Whats the safest way to lvl up: Answer by vets: Do pve missions

What ship should i use for pvp: Answer by vets: Herc/endy /bellona

Minority wants to get into pvp right away. Even its fun new player dont seem to consider to be rdy nor equiuped well enough.

Edited January 20, 2019 by z4ys

[Iroquois Confederacy]

Further questions:  What do you see as the purpose of econ?  These proposals ensure that merchant vessels are immune from PvP if they can survive 4 minutes of combat) allowing anyone five minutes to port up and sail out.

For those who play this game as commerce raiders - is there a place in the game for them anymore?

[Ellias]

13 minutes ago, admin said:

15 minutes ago, Ellias said:

 

• "Demasting is the only skill in the game", granted.

?? what does it mean?

Demasting = easy win. Nothing else renders you so helpless. You can turn the tides this way or another with other aspects of the game but as soon as you are demasted and if you are not outnumbering it is GG. Multiply the frustration of new players who want to test, try amazing PVP combat.

Demasting was enjoyed by a minority for a very long time to dominate small battles. Each time you make it harder they come to forums in chorus blaming you of "removing the only skill in the game".

People kept complaining that the big mast hitboxes and ect. You kept coming with historical facts that it was quite usual sight, yet we don't play battles in battle sails because we use NA battle engine, not real life.

Yes, I do demast players. Even we have to use French rig refit almost on every ship nowadays it still feels ok. 

I was impying for times when it was much easier for a very long time.

34 minutes ago, admin said:

36 minutes ago, Ellias said:

 

• Need faster action, granted here is your DLC and Shallow patrol zones

dlc ships were promised in 2013 long before any requests. 

I was excited with Requin and bought it just put my hands on it. DLC ship (by crafting, long redeemable timer) is a different thing than having a daily decent free ship.

I don't sail it anymore. It doesn't feel right.

[Legioneod]

On 1/18/2019 at 9:01 AM, admin said:

pvp per in game hour. if it grows - game gets better. 

Well this is wrong on so many levels. PVP and combat are the one thing this game already doas pretty well and implementing some of the ideas listed in the original post would do alot more harm than good.

[Legioneod]

23 minutes ago, Ellias said:

DLC ship (by crafting, long redeemable timer) is a different thing than having a daily decent free ship.

I don't sail it anymore. It doesn't feel right.

This is how I've felt dlc ships should be handled. It should give you the option to craft the ship but not get it instantly and for free everyday. It's should basically just be a dlc for a blueprint that you can craft and then sell the ship or do whatever you want with it.

sorry for the double post.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Legioneod

[Gregory Rainsborough]

On 1/18/2019 at 10:48 AM, admin said:

Examples of clear solutions solving the problems and increasing meaningful pvp on the WAR server

• Battle is always open for the weaker side 
  • This is a war server - this is a pvp game with the goal to increase amount of pvp for all. There is no point to close the battle for the weaker side. Let them escalate. This becomes the goal. 
  • Then you can come to help your own, and know someone will come to help.
  • Then you can build more friendships and get assists 
  • Then you will stumble to more battles and will have more pvp kills per hour. 

This I think would be the preferred method. It would allow those be ganked from being reinforced but would not allow solo hunted from being ganked in the battle instance. Provided the BR's are calculated correctly, that is a fair fight between two individuals or two groups. Ganking is all good and well when you start your PvP career but it gets tedious after a while, then folks try out solo hunting, in order to improve themselves and the prove to others how good they are. If that isn't fostered, folks'll just log off and play something that does cater to that. For those who are trying out solo hunting for the first time, they *need* even(ish) fights against people their own rank who just happens to be enemy waters, helping these players stick around will help the playerbase grow.

This method as well would encourage PvPers short on time to sit around their own ports since they won't be overwhelming by gank fleets. As you say, helping the smaller folks as it were.

@Ellias does speak the truth about natural frontiers. Teleporting between freetowns and towing ships should be removed from the game. This will also stop the nation hopping crowd from zerging as well as they'll have to actually invest time into the nations they jump to rather than sitting in free ports.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Gregory Rainsborough

[admin]

On 1/18/2019 at 11:29 PM, z4ys said:

How does that increase pvp? When attacking will become a penalty.

why is it a penalty? You are attacking - you are making a deliberate choice. 
2 meaningful battles generating 2 kills are better than 20 empty dances + trolling and griefing will be eliminated completely

[admin]

1 hour ago, Ellias said:

Demasting = easy win. Nothing else renders you so helpless. You can turn the tides this way or another with other aspects of the game but as soon as you are demasted and if you are not outnumbering it is GG. Multiply the frustration of new players who want to test, try amazing PVP combat.

Demasting was enjoyed by a minority for a very long time to dominate small battles. Each time you make it harder they come to forums in chorus blaming you of "removing the only skill in the game".

People kept complaining that the big mast hitboxes and ect. You kept coming with historical facts that it was quite usual sight, yet we don't play battles in battle sails because we use NA battle engine, not real life.

Yes, I do demast players. Even we have to use French rig refit almost on every ship nowadays it still feels ok. 

I was impying for times when it was much easier for a very long time.

I

I still do not get it. Demasting was easy and was made harder and then was made impossible (with some mods) and you say it was granted? You are not making any sense. 
 
What do you mean? Say it in one clear simple sentence. 
 

 

[admin]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

This is how I've felt dlc ships should be handled. It should give you the option to craft the ship but not get it instantly and for free everyday. It's should basically just be a dlc for a blueprint that you can craft and then sell the ship or do whatever you want with it.

sorry for the double post.

 

We promised that we are going to be direct with users and we are not going to give any false hopes to anyone.
We are very happy with how DLC ships are working and are not planning to change anything about them. 
DLC ships are not killing the game as some players say as if they were right they would have already killed everything since their introduction. Online was falling faster without them.

 

Now - in terms of DLC ships in this topic. 

DLC ship feedback should be posted in the appropriate topics (which exist). 
Please avoid DLC discussions in the ROE topic. If you bring up DLC ships in this discussions your posts will be deleted. 

[admin]

1 hour ago, z4ys said:

new player dont even consider to be pvp rdy before they hit max rank. (in many games max rank is the lvl you can do max dmg and have all skills unlocked- NA is special here)

 

Who said so. Is it because chats push them to missions instead of forcing them to take tutorials and take them hunting in a corvette?
30 days is a huge time to wait for pvp. If you play for 30 days and this is just a preparation for something, new players will not stay and will leave leaving you with the soup of vets and nothing else.
 

[Iroquois Confederacy]

@admin - there are serious and fundamental concerns I've laid out above.  The changes you propose help not only the new player, but the veteran of 1000+ hours.  That mismatch in experience will lead to new abuses, and a shift away from the spirit of the Age of Sail.

Can you address those concerns?

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Circle of death will radically limit the tactical choices for big fleet engagements as many lineships usually need more space to turn and sail.

Please leave it to patrol zones.

Attack enforcement IS NOT circle of death. There are multiple ways to make attacker stay on the target. Circile but only for attacker, special timers, limits on exit, negative karma or rank loss on sequential empty battles (attack and run)

This discussion is getting useless due to lack of focus on issues. Captains please focus and don't wobble like cows on ice.

[Ellias]

18 minutes ago, admin said:

I still do not get it. Demasting was easy and was made harder and then was made impossible (with some mods) and you say it was granted? You are not making any sense. 
 
What do you mean? Say it in one clear simple sentence. 

 

You are not asking for feedback here. You are defending your design by using an impolite statement that I don't make any sense.

I was talking about the historical progression of the game (like diplomacy), not the current state. It was kept granted for a very long time.

If we are going to talk about the current state: even you introduce some mods to make it harder - impossible it is still among the most viable tactics to use. I remember reading in Global chat players arranging duels with rules of "no demasting". Figure it out for yourself.  

I am under no obligation to make sense to you.

Anyway, try to forgive my nonsense as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.

 

 

 

[admin]

3 hours ago, Ellias said:

 

• "Demasting is the only skill in the game", granted.

You said easy demasting was granted based on player suggestions (despite the fact that it was constantly nerfed and nerfed and nerfed over time). Some mods make it impossible now. That is why your comment on demasting did not make ANY sense to me and i asked to rephrase it twice.

53 minutes ago, Ellias said:

 

You are not asking for feedback here. You are defending your design by using an impolite statement that I don't make any sense.

I was talking about the historical progression of the game (like diplomacy), not the current state. It was kept granted for a very long time.

If we are going to talk about the current state: even you introduce some mods to make it harder - impossible it is still among the most viable tactics to use. I remember reading in Global chat players arranging duels with rules of "no demasting". Figure it out for yourself.  

I am under no obligation to make sense to you.

Anyway, try to forgive my nonsense as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.

We are asking for clear feedback and when i dont understand i ask again. (forum right?)
Now when i am trying to make sense of your feedback which i requested you are taking a passive aggressive "being an ass" stance and not only not clarify but attack me now.

Your reaction shows that you were just looking for the reason to fight and shown your angry real face on the simplest direct request to rephrase your statement. 
 

[admin]

40 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

@admin - there are serious and fundamental concerns I've laid out above.  The changes you propose help not only the new player, but the veteran of 1000+ hours.  That mismatch in experience will lead to new abuses, and a shift away from the spirit of the Age of Sail.

Can you address those concerns?

They were spread into 2-3 posts can you please move them into one list

[Capn Rocko]

47 minutes ago, admin said:

Attack enforcement IS NOT circle of death. There are multiple ways to make attacker stay on the target. Circile but only for attacker, special timers, limits on exit, negative karma or rank loss on sequential empty battles (attack and run)
 

Disabling the "Leave battle" button seems to be the easiest option. However, some assholes will choose to sail into the distance for 1.5 hours (or until the defender gets bored and leaves battle).

Can you explain how a circle works only for the attacker? Wouldn't the circle keep the attacker within close proximity to the defender while he tries to escape (thus, the circle restricting both sides)? I personally think the defender should decide if a circle is implemented in the battle instance (like the reinforcements button). If the defender wants a normal fight, they can have it. But if they are being trolled/griefed they can click a button and force the enemy to fight. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Capn Rocko

[admin]

29 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Disabling the "Leave battle" button seems to be the easiest option. However, some assholes will choose to sail into the distance for 1.5 hours (or until the defender gets bored and leaves battle).

Can you explain how a circle works only for the attacker? Wouldn't the circle keep the attacker within close proximity to the defender while he tries to escape (thus, the circle restricting both sides)? 

It can be something else - not a circle. 

Karma system
Point system
Timeouts
There are lots of options that can work if we through away this original mantra "You can attack with no consequences"
And i think we should consider throwing it away. 
Because Attack must result in a score and if you attack to just run around you better not attack at all. 

And this must be implemented even if there is only one reason
Reduce griefing, time wasting and other related negatives related to useless battles.

 

PS. Example of a simple point system
Attack results in an attacking battle for you, points scored in an attacking battle (points mean any points scored in that battle even against you).
If during some time attacking points are below attack results you lose rank. 

[Iroquois Confederacy]

27 minutes ago, admin said:

They were spread into 2-3 posts can you please move them into one list

I don't know that I'm keen on the open battle.  I try to play the game to be "a smart frigate Captain" going for battles that feel the part.  Sometimes the BR is in my favor, sometimes it's not.  A large part of the game for me is examining maps, trade routes, and scouting locations to see where I might catch people unaware - much as a smart frigate Captain might do.  I worry these changes will write out my style of play.

I'm just one person.  Maybe the changes are better for the numbers of players.  I don't know that it's good for the soul of the game.

-------------

This is how this will be exploited:

1.  You will have the initial wave of players lurking out "AFK" nearish to ports.  Once they are tagged, they will call for a targeted response to beam in the best counter-vessel appropriate.  In this way, the "bold" will always be at the worst disadvantage they can be, favoring the defense.

2.  After that, people will try to be more creative with how they lure people onto their bait.  Individuals will simply have a second character logged out - literally not even in the game, waiting for their bait vessel to be tagged.  At which point, they will log in, join the fight, and try to smash the other person.  Once again, the people bold enough to play with integrity and actually sail waters looking for fights will be disadvantaged.

3.  Eventually, whole clans will remain logged out around bait vessels in populated areas.  They will "beam in" as has happened recently in the patrol zones in order to bring overwhelming odds.  With a little experience, the person silly enough to attack anything will be led right into the joining area for the zombie players.

This mechanic will discourage playing with integrity, and will have the exact opposite effect upon PvP:  Less people will be willing to go out to fight, because nobody will want to be the initiator, lest they be walking into a light speed trap.

How will you address the huge bias in favor of defensiveness, and encourage people to aggressively go out and sail, looking for fights?

What do you see as the purpose for the Open World?

What do you see as the purpose of econ?  These proposals ensure that merchant vessels are immune from PvP if they can survive 4 minutes of combat) allowing anyone five minutes to port up and sail out.

For those who play this game as commerce raiders - is there a place in the game for them anymore?

[Hethwill]

3 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

in order to bring overwhelming odds

how ? ... if battle is open until equal force, that is

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

 

1.  You will have the initial wave of players lurking out "AFK" nearish to ports.  Once they are tagged, they will call for a targeted response to beam in the best counter-vessel appropriate.  In this way, the "bold" will always be at the worst disadvantage they can be, favoring the defense.

2.  After that, people will try to be more creative with how they lure people onto their bait.  Individuals will simply have a second character logged out - literally not even in the game, waiting for their bait vessel to be tagged.  At which point, they will log in, join the fight, and try to smash the other person.  Once again, the people bold enough to play with integrity and actually sail waters looking for fights will be disadvantaged.

3.  Eventually, whole clans will remain logged out around bait vessels in populated areas.  They will "beam in" as has happened recently in the patrol zones in order to bring overwhelming odds.  With a little experience, the person silly enough to attack anything will be led right into the joining area for the zombie players.

This mechanic will discourage playing with integrity, and will have the exact opposite effect upon PvP:  Less people will be willing to go out to fight, because nobody will want to be the initiator, lest they be walking into a light speed trap.

4. How will you address the huge bias in favor of defensiveness, and encourage people to aggressively go out and sail, looking for fights?

What do you see as the purpose for the Open World?

What do you see as the purpose of econ?  These proposals ensure that merchant vessels are immune from PvP if they can survive 4 minutes of combat) allowing anyone five minutes to port up and sail out.

For those who play this game as commerce raiders - is there a place in the game for them anymore?

Rework of current roe must be focused on the increase of the availability of content and the natural reduction of ganking
Partially opened battles create more pvp (by keeping weaker side open until BR evens out) and reduce ganking (by keeping weaker side open). Ganking will not dissapear but more battles will even out and more people will enjoy pvp joining already created battles, by stumbling upon them or coming to help.

On your points.

• AFK in port- not a problem. If you attack en force you create an open battle against yourself. If you attack to beam in a special ship in - its just a 2v1 and is not so painful for the target (who might still win). So no real change compared to old systems
• Baiting - for a very long time we thought baiting is bad - but.. baiting is content and is creating pvp for a group of people. Attack a stronger target and you will never get baited. If you see an afk trader lynx in the bay? Maybe its a tarp? More pvp (and lots of traps?) good. Because more pvp. People are not dumb and will learn to see traps.
• Clans logging off? Whats the point of getting whole clans logged off? You can only create a +1 advantage closing the battle. The rest wont be able to join anyway. Battle closes on BR evening out. 

On the comment of less people going out. 

• More people will go out because now they can reinforce or help. Number of people who want to sail out will not increase or reduce - they will face content more often. And because they face content more often they will stay longer and this will increase the online.

Commerce raiders?
They are pvp players they will manage.

[admin]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

In my opinion this is just not a problem that needs solving.

Its your opinion. But it is the problem that needs solving. Because all players including new players face such fake attacks constantly. And the average player facing 4 1 hour fake runs will uninstall after support says - its a grey area. 

 

So the best way is to just take a stand and destroy fake battles completely. This will increase pvp scores and will increase enjoyment. Our old statement was here "honor will be provided to you", it is time to do it for the attackers. 

Want to attack? But do not want to fight? Face the consequences. Attack if you really want to fight and do not want to run (at least for some time)

[Licinio Chiavari]

2 hours ago, admin said:

This discussion is getting useless due to lack of focus on issues. Captains please focus and don't wobble like cows on ice.

I made a list of proposals in the very first page.

 

3 hours ago, admin said:

I still do not get it. Demasting was easy and was made harder and then was made impossible (with some mods) and you say it was granted? You are not making any sense. 
 

It makes sense.

Simply because, still now, it's viable and working.

The original issue is the possibility to even think to purposely aim from the rolling deck of a tall ship running full speed to enemy masts with single balls with any chance to hit them.

That leaded to have to introduce mast strenght mods... And buffing masts as game stat.

As long as it will be possible to snipe shot a mast of a 100% sail ship (so no rig damage) with any chance so to break it, the issue will stand. People live with it (mast mods, protecting masts with tactically weird manouvers etc) doesnt mean it is ok.

Make mast thickness function of sail damage (so a 50% sail ship mast has 50% the thickness - as a simple example - therefore simulating growing rig damage) with base thickness simply not penetrable even at close range by any reasonable enemy gun (it could be fine a 42pd still penetrating a 100% sail Surprise. Not for a 18).

And I wrote similar proposals 2 years ago.

But skillZ lobby (those hating boarding and considering mast sniping "realism") defended this crap all the time.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[z4ys]

2 hours ago, admin said:

why is it a penalty? You are attacking - you are making a deliberate choice. 
2 meaningful battles generating 2 kills are better than 20 empty dances + trolling and griefing will be eliminated completely

In most cases it is the defender who runs and tries to escape. Griefing/delaying is a thing because OW let us do so hostility mission Pb RvR even promote that. Teleport + fast OW travel let us do it too. on top of it the long join timers in patrol. It's the attacker who gets reinforced after the battle. Defender has the same chance to call in reinforcements but that rarely happens.

Even with the changes I just pick a trollboat tag delay die to the circle or whatever and my buddies wait outside. And best would be to do so with an alt.

What needs changing is spotting range. currently I can tell from trillion miles friend or foe and run away. Especially in regions with ports that are so close to each others that hopping from port to port is almost possible within can't be attacked timer.

To judge friend or foe should only be possible within tagging range. That would bypass the need of ultra fast tagging ships.

Then structure dmg slow down effect is so weak that some ships can still escape with 20-40 structure. Start making it a penalty. Repairs should only repair structure back to the point were it can't sink 15% or so. But never 100% that would make this fake looking circle of death so unnecessary.

And I know it's skill but this I angle my ship and bounce broadside is stupid.

Edited January 20, 2019 by z4ys