On reclassing certain ships

[Tom Farseer]

Derived from @admin's post here

 

2 hours ago, admin said:

I think Constitution should be re-classed as a third rate and buffed accordingly. Which will bring a necessary variety to the 3rd rates. 
2 more ships should then also be buffed and re-classed as 4th rates  (Trincomalee and Endymion), as they feel out of place compared to other 5th rates like surprise.

Another side effect of such proper classification: 5th rate missions will feel better (hard to fight endymion in a cerberus)


 

 

Here's my two cents to this:

Creating some sort of subclass of the 5th rates, which arguably have the most variety in the game is definitely a good idea!

If ship classes are limited to a maximum amount of 7, I hope you learn from that mistake for future projects. Whenever possible create code that is adaptable, bespoke solutions are good for fast results but they will likely trip you later on. I know it is tempting, I made that mistake far to often myself .

So if creating subclasses 5a and 5b for lighter and heavier frigates is not an option, then reclassing them to 4th might work. IT hink it is more likely that the problem will just be relocated to the 4th rates. The Gap in that class will be as high. Killing an Aggy/Connie/Inger/Wapen in an Endy may prove quite challenging to the average player. Also, if you want to reclass the Endy and Trinc, throw the Indefatigable in as well.

Before thinking about reclassing the Constitution to 3rd rate for increased variety, take a good look at what you have in that class currently. You have the Bellona and the "Third Rate" 74, which are basically clones with minor differences but hugely different Battle Rating and the Gustav Adolph (Wasa) which sees significantly less use since the BR change. Re-Adapt BR of the Bellona and 3rd rate to be closer together. And either lower the Wasa'S BR or give it a little Buff (Cue the "Wasa was too OP, never again"-faction).

Now I know, the Wasa was once tremendously overpowered. I have no intention to see it go back to that. But as it is now it arguably is of not much use compared to it's compatriots in the 3rd class.

1. It can't be used effectively in Port Battles because of it's extreme BR.
2. It is somwhat viable in Open World but has not a single stat that makes it stand out from the other 3rd rates. It is weaker, has less Sail HP, cardboard masts, less crew and less broadside weight. It turns slightly better but not enough to make a difference. The speed is more or less the same although lower hold space makes packing sufficent repairs without losing speed a problem.
3. I would suggest finding a way to make the wasa stand out a bit from the other two. A little buff on the masts, and a SMALL increase of the base speed (between .25 and .4 knots probably) should do wonders. It's chasers make it a good tagger, let it shine in that capacity because it can't shine in any other right now.

I have 100+ hours on all three 3rd rates. The only reason I still have a Wasa is because I find it quite nice to look at. The variety can be there if you let it. Make the Wasa different from the other 3rd rates. Not better, not worse (as it is now) but different. Give players a reason to sail this beauty other than not having knowledge slot on the other two. After that you can think about further increasing variety.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Sir Texas Sir]

Wasa mainliy isn't being used right now (well in the past) cause it can't be crafted and can only be gotten with PvP marks before Doubloons and high number of doubloons.  It's easier to just craft Bellonas.  They need to make the Wasa and La' Hormonia craftable.  Just make it where we can spend more Doubloons and buy the blue print.

[Guest]

Variety comes from role. Atm we should have taggers and brawlers and something in between. The reno is basically a wasted ship and could for all intents and purposes be deleted from the game. I haven't seen anyone sail her in ages and I don't sail her either despite the fact that I love the ship.

We have ships that simply put fulfills too many roles at once and some that doesn't shine enough in their designated roles.

[Slim McSauce]

45 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Wasa mainliy isn't being used right now (well in the past) cause it can't be crafted and can only be gotten with PvP marks before Doubloons and high number of doubloons.  It's easier to just craft Bellonas.  They need to make the Wasa and La' Hormonia craftable.  Just make it where we can spend more Doubloons and buy the blue print.

yeah man how long are we gonna wait for that, it's forever have they just been too busy to make a craft recipee for these ships or what?

[Bragan Benigaris]

The Connie as 3rd rate? I'm not sure if that's a good place for her, because currently she's fitting nice between the 4th rates, imho. She has a distinct sailing profile ("beam reacher") compared to the Aggy and the Ingerman (downwind specialist), is tougher but is slower than Aggy and less firepower than Ingerman and turns worse than both (tacking is a different thing, but that could be neglected imo).

I would let her stay as 4th rate and add the Indefatigable/Endymion duo to this class. This way you have all the 24pdrs in one class. The Trinc could stay as is, the "Queen" of the 5th rates so to say.

The delta regarding combat prowess in the 4th rates between Endy/Indef  and e.g. Ingermanland wouldn't be higher than in the  5th rates between Cerberus and Essex (or Trinc).

[Licinio Chiavari]

I do not think reclassing ships would be a solution, aside being plainly un-elegant.

Ships need a niche, the smaller or the bigger, but a potential role.

CCB (cookie cutter Bellona) is still a fact, but BR rework throwed her out of PBs giving room to 3rd rates. Similar go for Bucetaure in place of 1st rates (still I'd push this more to have PB main fleets made of 3rd rates as historical).

Hercules breaks light 5th rate balance, so some more work is needed. Still the usually surclassed Renomee remains in use, and her great downwind speed makes her still viable as solo hunter. Only ship in the group without any real use is Cerberus. Then we could speak about how to make her having a role.

Talking about 4th rate and bigger 5th rates the problem lies around the Constitution and Wappen, while Indef, Endy and Trinco being decently balanced with different pros and cons (and indeed all 3 are regularly used) as Agamennon and Ingermanland (one sturdier, one faster).

On the other hand, Wappen ends being only a great turner but being frail (and a damn big target impossible to miss) she has big issues as a brawler, requiring heavy builts... So becoming even slower, and with even more difficult to find a role both in RvR and OW PvP. Still @admin said that a Wappen buff is underway, so we can wait and see.

So we are back to the Constitution. That should be a great ship but has limited uses in NA due to a mix of low speed (I repeat daily: 0.1 base speed inferior to Agamennon!) and crappy turning (inferior to Bellona).

It has been plainly repeated for one year or more: Constitution requires a (small) buff. Or to turning (to be able to fight bigger stuff like a - sturdier - frigate) or to speed (to be able to disengage superior forces). History/realism wise, most reasonable solution is giving her approx +0.2/.3 more base speed (as said a billion times), so being still slower than all frigates (Indef is now at 12.1 and Constitution at 11.7), with (far) inferior turn rate of them, but at same time a speed buff allowing her to have more chances to break off from superior forces and not making her suitable to engage 1v1 2-deckers lacking turning, but, as she is, sturdy enough to have a chance side to side.

Again, my 'a bit more than' two cents.

 

[Hethwill]

I don't think the Constitution is slow per se, just that the ships of the line are too fast. 

[Licinio Chiavari]

11 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I don't think the Constitution is slow per se, just that the ships of the line are too fast. 

I could agree.

May be simpler to (slight) buff one than nerfing (a bit) half a dozen ships.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

I believe the problem is that admin can not make more new classes or subclasses as you called it.

Perhaps making a new class, the superfrigates is so important that it is worth to merge the 7th and the 6th ones into one class. At the end, they are all shallow water ships. 

Yeah but that would create problems for players just starting out and who can't finish the captains exams.. They'd basically take a 7th rate mission in a BC or something similar and come up against a mercury.. perfectly doable - if you have experience.. any newb would be destroyed..

[Hethwill]

1st rate 100 guns good tides and wind were what ? 6 knots ? 7 ?

3rd rate 74's... 10 ? 12 in the most auspicious of days never to be repeated ?

There's no question about the lethality of 74 gun and 98 gun and 100 gun ships in NA and they can handle very well in the line of battle. Even the 64/68 gun ships can fit in and do their job.

But sorry, ships of the line doing the jobs it should be the frigates doing "because they are more weatherly  by design" ( lower hull, etc ) .... *sigh*...

Just look at the war after William took the throne, when the french almost, just almost, managed to blockade England of trade supplies ( very much like the germans copied twice in the 20th century ). Was it by using SOLs ? No. Was by using frigates and damn good ones.

[Slim McSauce]

2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

1st rate 100 guns good tides and wind were what ? 6 knots ? 7 ?

3rd rate 74's... 10 ? 12 in the most auspicious of days never to be repeated ?

There's no question about the lethality of 74 gun and 98 gun and 100 gun ships in NA and they can handle very well in the line of battle. Even the 64/68 gun ships can fit in and do their job.

But sorry, ships of the line doing the jobs it should be the frigates doing "because they are more weatherly  by design" ( lower hull, etc ) .... *sigh*...

Just look at the war after William took the throne, when the french almost, just almost, managed to blockade England of trade supplies ( very much like the germans copied twice in the 20th century ). Was it by using SOLs ? No. Was by using frigates and damn good ones.

We could see this finally when damage is calculated by weight, that's the great thing about doing things by the book, everything becomes more in tune to realism when you start making big strides toward it.

[Hethwill]

Really looking forward to it... even if with dread for my bitmen crew  

[Licinio Chiavari]

15 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

...

But sorry, ships of the line doing the jobs it should be the frigates doing "because they are more weatherly  by design" ( lower hull, etc ) .... *sigh*...

Just look at the war after William took the throne, when the french almost, just almost, managed to blockade England of trade supplies ( very much like the germans copied twice in the 20th century ). Was it by using SOLs ? No. Was by using frigates and damn good ones.

Then the point is the (still partial) lack of meaningful economy and PvE (and therefore RvR). I was even criticized (by fair duel/fun battle/sea trials enthusiast) saying a rich PvE enviroment is good for raiders too giving them targets... So allowing them to be privateers. And potentially making raiding a viable way to conduct a war.

Because real damage douable by raiding to enemy nation, at the moment, in NA, is pretty limited.

Especially to old rich veterans with a bunch of alts.

[Hethwill]

I also feel that any of us isn't hurting a Nation when we hit enemy shipping... and to quote myself "poor bastard". His Nation won't feel a thing, while he/she will. But that has nothing to do with the ship reclassing though. sorry for OT.

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I also feel that any of us isn't hurting a Nation when we hit enemy shipping... and to quote myself "poor bastard". His Nation won't feel a thing, while he/she will. But that has nothing to do with the ship reclassing though. sorry for OT.

Well. It's extremely time intensive but can be, partially, done.

At the climax of my (with Hulio and some other) raiding campaign in Jamaica I got rumors of resources prices were getting higher and higher in KPR due to less and less traders transporting stuff in (like Stone from PM).

BUT it's definately not proportional to raiders' commitment nor the personal damage suffered by single captains.

Devs said that port production will be (by trading patch) function of basic resources delivered in the port.

This could* lead to a more meaningful raiding: if I have a strategic material Port I want its production to be high. So I want people to deliver there other materials.

So I will not want raiders "blockading" this port.

[JDAM]

3 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said:

I haven't seen anyone sail her in ages and I don't sail her either despite the fact that I love the ship.

mmm kind of mid-level players ship, something nice to work towards when you're a new player or still at the appropriate rank for it, but you're meant to move on from her there are better ships once you can man them, so I think she definitely has a place in game.

[JDAM]

1 hour ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I also feel that any of us isn't hurting a Nation when we hit enemy shipping... and to quote myself "poor bastard". His Nation won't feel a thing, while he/she will. But that has nothing to do with the ship reclassing though. sorry for OT.

I think it does I notice the ports are more & more empty in both resources & trade goods across the board and I do believe it is from OW hunting of traders for doubloons and materials.  

[DeRuyter]

5 hours ago, Lars Kjaer said:

Variety comes from role. Atm we should have taggers and brawlers and something in between. The reno is basically a wasted ship and could for all intents and purposes be deleted from the game. I haven't seen anyone sail her in ages and I don't sail her either despite the fact that I love the ship.

We have ships that simply put fulfills too many roles at once and some that doesn't shine enough in their designated roles.

Beautiful ship that highlights the problem of having ships spread across a long time line. Used to be that the Reno was the fast downwind tagger. I thought I saw @rediii sailing a Reno in a recent stream though. 

I just posted in the other thread:

For 5th rate missions you can vary the difficulty with larger or smaller AI opponents so the lighter 5th rates can do them. Ultimately reclassing heavy 5th rates (and the one "super frigate") as ships of the line would be a mistake IMO. Now getting rid of the 7th rate class has merit. 🤔

[van der Clam]

2 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

Eh....no thank you. A Connie is a high rated 4th pushing the 3rd rate class, but is limited by number of decks and guns to fit into the 3rd rate. If you reclass the Connie, then you must reclass the Hercules, as it fits highly in its class also. The Trinc is no way near a 4th rate, no matter the build with any of the  mods....however, perhaps the Indefatigable could be.