Patch 14: Part 1 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[Cmdr RideZ]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

constitution has the lowest % of square sails of all 4th rates and above

In real life Constitution was still the fastest?  Was not?

If so, some variables are missing from this function.

[admin]

8 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

In real life Constitution was still the fastest?  Was not?

If so, some variables are missing from this function.

fastest at which angle and at which condition of wind? Do we take kedging and fake maneuvers  into account (constitution faked the approaching gale forcing brits to reduce sail)

[Liq]

But 10.1 knots close hauled in a teak teak connie (without any jib force bonus) seems a little.. overkill

[Cmdr RideZ]

30 minutes ago, admin said:

fastest at which angle and at which condition of wind? Do we take kedging and fake maneuvers  into account (constitution faked the approaching gale forcing brits to reduce sail)

I am just asking, you are the expert here.

If I google about Constitution they say that live oak hull was very strong, they tell me something about ironsides and that it was fast, 13kn.  I think some place explain that strong hull made it possible for Constitution to reach that kind of speed.  Strong hull was strong enough against water pressure created by speed.  (What I have read from google, don't know how reliable those sources are at all)

How fast Agamemnon was?  Will the new model simulate both ships?  How realistic you try to make it?

I understand that game may need a bit less realistic simulation, mainly to create good balance between ships.  Fans of more realistic games can get disappointed if historically fast ships are not actually fast.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Guest]

2 hours ago, admin said:

We are testing better side force and current overall turning is also affected by several other things.

• for example rudder turns could be too high (and rudder turn speed could be reduced)
• inertia is affecting the tacking and overall turning too as you maintain high speed getting closer to win due to inertia and increased turn rates help you pass the danger zones faster
• yard turning speed also need to be lowered, so users start planning maneuvers a bit more ahead

Please consider carefully about yard turning speed. I understand you want people to plan further ahead, however, many of us already do...in fact, many of us dont execute a yard turn until last second. We delay the yard turn until the last second to disguise our next direction or make a sudden turn our enemy doesn't expect. If you slow the yard turn too much, it will eliminate this tactic for the most part.

[George Washington]

2 hours ago, admin said:

We are testing better side force and current overall turning is also affected by several other things.

• for example rudder turns could be too high (and rudder turn speed could be reduced)
• inertia is affecting the tacking and overall turning too as you maintain high speed getting closer to win due to inertia and increased turn rates help you pass the danger zones faster
• yard turning speed also need to be lowered, so users start planning maneuvers a bit more ahead

Just don't over do it, it's not that bad right now. 

[vazco]

It's right - hull strength is becoming ridiculous. I think strong hull should be mutually exclusive with Cartagena.

[Yngvarr]

1 minute ago, vazco said:

It's right - hull strength is becoming ridiculous. I think strong hull should be mutually exclusive with Cartagena.

I think a possible solutions would be that the dev's allow only 1 perm upgrade per affected category.

So no more stacking of 3 hull upgrades, speed upgrades or any other upgrade.

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Just please make the endymion the God she was. There will always be a speed meta ship but maybe it's best if the endymion is that by design. Hull and sail hp is already low enough to make up for her speed. 

No ship in game should be god mode. Thanks. 

 

1 hour ago, admin said:

fastest at which angle and at which condition of wind? Do we take kedging and fake maneuvers  into account (constitution faked the approaching gale forcing brits to reduce sail)

In sea trials, she held well over 14 knots, so did one of her sister ships. She was also live oak built. She was one of the fastest frigates of her day. Your calculations are abit off somewhere. 

[Hethwill]

How many different crews/commanders did the Constitution go through before she acquired her legendary status !? Five !? Six !? Where one Captain did see what more could be done with her, others before fell short. In the end if math is correct that's what it comes down to - the man behind the machine.

Bending the math in code to fit the human age of sail RL achievement ( aka. records that this captain managed to achieve certain speed on a certain day with certain wind strength using certain sails positions at a certain latitude with certain atmospheric pressure, etc etc etc ) is wrong.

That achievement is that captain's. We should though be able to, with proper use of the machine systems - hull, rigging - in relation to the environment - wind, water - achieve similar results within the game limitations. Not as a baseline, use the best record, but with proper fine use of the ship may reach the best.

 

[Malachy]

27 minutes ago, vazco said:

It's right - hull strength is becoming ridiculous. I think strong hull should be mutually exclusive with Cartagena.

Hull means nothing in the current meta. The ship with the fastest speed is going to control the engagement. The reason hull means nothing is the faster ship can pick away at your sails and sit at a point where the strong hulled slow ship can't engage. Sails are way too easy to damage, and mast snipers are even worse. These ships had smooth bore cannon and were on an unsteady gun platform. Many battle lasted days without a mast hit. Never in the history of naval combat has a ship fired every single broadside into a single mast and hit every shot. Our guns in this game are way too pinpoint accurate. Irl it was more point and pray, especially when attacking rigging. I'd say hull shots are about right but player effectiveness vs rigging is way out of line. Even if you cap mast and sail hp and strength, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

we aren't sailing m1 abrams tanks with rifled howitzers firing depleted uranium rounds. We are sailing ships that are bobbing in the waves mounting smooth bore cannon that were highly inaccurate. You could get them on target, but sniping masts like we see in game wasn't possible. Even a so called Aimed shot should have a margin of accuracy of 5 to 10 meters every direction. Taking a mast should be more luck than anything else. @admin

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy

[Corona Lisa]

6 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Hull means nothing in the current meta. The ship with the fastest speed is going to control the engagement. The reason hull means nothing is the faster ship can pick away at your sails and sit at a point where the strong hulled slow ship can't engage. Sails are way too easy to damage, and mast snipers are even worse. These ships had smooth bore cannon and were on an unsteady gun platform. Many battle lasted days without a mast hit. Never in the history of naval combat has a ship fired every single broadside into a single mast and hit every shot. Our guns in this game are way too pinpoint accurate. Irl it was more point and pray, especially when attacking rigging. I'd say hull shots are about right but player effectiveness vs rigging is way out of line. Even if you cap mast and sail hp and strength, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

we aren't sailing m1 abrams tanks with rifled howitzers firing depleted uranium rounds. We are sailing ships that are bobbing in the waves mounting smooth bore cannon that were highly inaccurate. You could get them on target, but sniping masts like we see in game wasn't possible. @admin

Thats why masts on a 1st rate dont break from a single 9pd hit like irl. Why do you want more inaccuracy tho? It just means more random "spray n pray" instead of actual player skill.

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, Liq said:

But 10.1 knots close hauled in a teak teak connie (without any jib force bonus) seems a little.. overkill

You mean beam reach. Connie teak teak will max out at 6.5 close hauled with 10.5 % speed mods

[HachiRoku]

26 minutes ago, Malachy said:

No ship in game should be god mode. Thanks. 

 

In sea trials, she held well over 14 knots, so did one of her sister ships. She was also live oak built. She was one of the fastest frigates of her day. Your calculations are abit off somewhere. 

Either its her or something else.the is no balance in games

[Siegfried]

I was trying the new sailing in a bucentaure and I like. The next changes admin said I like too.

I like sail in manual yards and now we need adjust different angles for fore mast to maintain the ship in right line. Before even in manual, you only needed maintain the yards paralel.

But you must look at the autosailing "cheat" now. When you press F key, all wind forces stop instantly and the ship sotp the movement before the real yard position. Is like a pause in the turning and you can press again F for resume the movement. Sorry, I can't explain this better in english

[Malachy]

Just now, Jon Snow lets go said:

Thats why masts on a 1st rate dont break from a single 9pd hit like irl. Why do you want more inaccuracy tho? It just means more random "spray n pray" instead of actual player skill.

I want more realistic ballistic behavior vs masts and rigging. Im bored with the sail sniping that's the current meta. Even chain is way too accurate. A lucky 9 lb shot should be able to break a mast, what we shouldn't see is every single ball hitting a mast. I know a bunch of folks who can do that with ease now. That's not possible with smooth bore cannons. Even the best aimed shots still had several meters of variability where they get and that was on land.

[Malachy]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Either its her or something else.the is no balance in games

Not true. Every game I've played has balance. Naval action is the only one that can't seem to figure it out.

[Liq]

4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You mean beam reach. Connie teak teak will max out at 6.5 close hauled with 10.5 % speed mods

No

[Corona Lisa]

1 minute ago, Malachy said:

I want more realistic ballistic behavior vs masts and rigging. Im bored with the sail sniping that's the current meta. Even chain is way too accurate. A lucky 9 lb shot should be able to break a mast, what we shouldn't see is every single ball hitting a mast. I know a bunch of folks who can do that with ease now. That's not possible with smooth bore cannons. Even the best aimed shots still had several meters of variability where they get and that was on land.

I prefer the current system over everyone spraying with carronade accuracy into masts until the first hits and the mast breaks.

[Malachy]

4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You mean beam reach. Connie teak teak will max out at 6.5 close hauled with 10.5 % speed mods

Yeah tested the Connie last night. You are correct here. It's not that great upwind. No idea why her best point is 110 now, 135 was in real life.

[Malachy]

2 minutes ago, Liq said:

No

My fir teak ones couldn't do that liq. You may have been still decelerating? or experiencing a bug.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy

[HachiRoku]

18 minutes ago, Malachy said:

Hull means nothing in the current meta. The ship with the fastest speed is going to control the engagement. The reason hull means nothing is the faster ship can pick away at your sails and sit at a point where the strong hulled slow ship can't engage. Sails are way too easy to damage, and mast snipers are even worse. These ships had smooth bore cannon and were on an unsteady gun platform. Many battle lasted days without a mast hit. Never in the history of naval combat has a ship fired every single broadside into a single mast and hit every shot. Our guns in this game are way too pinpoint accurate. Irl it was more point and pray, especially when attacking rigging. I'd say hull shots are about right but player effectiveness vs rigging is way out of line. Even if you cap mast and sail hp and strength, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

we aren't sailing m1 abrams tanks with rifled howitzers firing depleted uranium rounds. We are sailing ships that are bobbing in the waves mounting smooth bore cannon that were highly inaccurate. You could get them on target, but sniping masts like we see in game wasn't possible. Even a so called Aimed shot should have a margin of accuracy of 5 to 10 meters every direction. Taking a mast should be more luck than anything else. @admin

Bs. Complete and utter bs. Duel me fir vs teak and see

[Liq]

2 minutes ago, Malachy said:

My fir teak ones couldn't do that liq. You may have been still decelerating? or experiencing a bug.

I was going like that for a minute at least

Also the tacking performance was ridiculously great, better than a surprise

[Malachy]

2 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

I prefer the current system over everyone spraying with carronade accuracy into masts until the first hits and the mast breaks.

I would like to see more realistic combat overall. The way it is now is too Rock Paper Scissors. And fixing sniper accuracy would not end up to what you describe because it would be more beneficial to use the reduced power chain shot or just fire into the hull. No good player would spray and pray when they had a .05 percent chance of hitting a mast but a 90 percent chance of hitting the hull.

[Malachy]

18 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Bs. Complete and utter bs. Duel me fir vs teak and see

Our tournament match the other day supports my position completely. Don't need to duel you to prove my point again, you already proved it. 

Every pirate proves my point every day on the os. I've lost track of the tanky ships I've taken down in a fir ship, simply by sniping sails then raking. It's boring actually, only another fast ship can put up a decent fight. It's funny, those with the most to lose are always against balancing the game lol. You are a mast sniper, of course you don't want to see it go away. I get that.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Malachy