naval no action

[Blackjack Morgan]

6 hours ago, admin said:

Ships carrying repairs could repair multiple times during the voyage.
During Glorious first of June many British ships repaired multiple times and re-engaged the french within single day (which happens during long fighs)

• You want no repairs because it brings more skill and tactics to you your game is naval action legends then
• You want repairs if you are interested in economy, endurance and strategy which open world game gives you.

Repairs force players to be aggressive and not passive and passive combat achieve nothing in NA, just like real life long range line fighting was proven to be completely useless by end of 18th century.
repairs will remain and we like their implementation because they promote historical aggressive combat and discourage long range pew pew

Yea, I think the amount of time that probably went by was a bit longer than what we have in game. Having 1 repair to Hull and 1 to Rigging I think is a fair compromise to represent emergency repairs or "damage control" during a battle. What you use as an example sounds like an ongoing battle in which ships might have dropped out of the fight...conducted some repairs then rejoined the engagement. Like you said within a single day....well a single day is a lot longer period of time than our 90 minute max time period represents. Remember when we had multiple repairs in game before? And we all tested it and we all ended up coming to the same conclusion that it wasn't good? So, what do you think has changed that somehow it is a better solution now?

There are a lot of long time testers still here...people with multiple years of playing and testing and giving feedback.....we care about this game. Many with enough hours spent in it that it would represent at least a part time job if not a full time job over that period of time. I'd at least say it is not a bad idea to listen to the suggestions and feedback....Many of the issues like revenge fleets we tested, gave feedback and solutions, changes were made and it was good....then we throw those away and go back to a system that caused so many problems. I'd like to think we all actually want this game to be a success right?

[Tenet]

13 hours ago, Neptune said:

So I've done this list, if anything to add please do.

Now Pros and Cons of teleport to freindly port. Not suggesting to bring this back, just comparing. You decide which has less ways to abuse and is better for the game.

Exit To Freindy Port Pros

1. No more unrealistic escaping more than once, when you escape you escape
2. Repeat tagging is removed, you do not need to worry about having 5 hours to go out and look for 1 good PvP
3. Revenge fleet can no longer sit on your battle location by teleporting from the other side of the map
4. Revenge fleet can't surround you on open world anymore
5. Revenge fleet can no longer abuse speeds by tagging multiple times to make slower ships faster
6. Gives players a necessity of life mechanic to play this game so they can log off after a long fight
7. Players who try to create PvP and stir up enemy to make them come attack them in their waters will not be punished by having no way to escape
8. Teleport from free port and teleport to capital on OW removed, If you want to sail back to your own waters you will need to get out of the free port near enemy capital

Exit To Freindly Port Cons

1. Teleporting to exit freindly port is unrealistic but if you escape you escape, this simulates it. We also have teleport to national outposts so that is unrealistic too if you are making that argument.
2. Players can gank and teleport away but they would of escaped anyway by the time revenge fleets got there. Any revenge fleet would of found out about such a battle days later. Now if you attack enemy in their waters you know they will be coming to your doorstep to cause havoc for attacking them, possibly making them angry enough to take a region. This is how it should be.
3. Revenge ganks removed

I think we should of tested exit to freindly port with more people online and removing teleporting when tagging AI. You can't teleport to free port anymore and capital teleports were also removed. This changes a lot, but I know that ship has sailed, But this is just a comparison per say.

This logic would work if Joining the battle was open for more than 2-3 minutes and was like 15-30 minutes for PvP fights. 

Having people sit outside a battle and unable to come in is just abuse of the instanced nature of fights. 

[Prater]

3 hours ago, Sansón Carrasco said:

The "tp to port" on battle exit idea that's being proposed as a solution to the revenge gank scenario would result in an extremely easy to exploit free teleport that could be used to create the same kind of "flash fleets" that the old "Send to outpost" option did.

Eg: attack an AI trader "wherever" and then don't actually fire at it during the battle instance. When the timer expires, choose "tp to port" and get a free teleport all the way across the map.

You hypothetically fix one problem and cause another that's even worse - every single trader will absolutely exploit this to get a risk-free way to transmit their goods without sailing the OW. And warships could use it to quickly tp to a friendly port of their choosing, making it super easy to assemble defensive (or offensive) fleets for port battles and screening, etc.

It causes many more problems than it solves, in my view.

I would suggest that, instead of reintroducing yet another teleport (I think teleports are THE PROBLEM in this game, more than anything), we first try removing the ability to teleport captains between national outposts and seeing if that doesn't actually do a huge amount to address the revenge gank scenario. Once that has been tested, then we evaluate how frequently this "endless retagging" scenario actually happens and decide if further changes are warranted.

TP to port went to the nearest friendly port, not all the way across the map, since freetowns are widespread.

[Fengist]

On 6/16/2017 at 8:32 AM, admin said:

The goal and overwhelming feedback from players was to make ship loss painful and meaningful, and make lineships more rare. You cannot make lineships a bit more rare without the higher cost for them.

What do you mean by unbalanced economy?
Fundamentally it does not differ from the old economy with 2 exceptions (no money for damage, pricier cannons). What is the rush to get to first rate?

You don't get it do you.  You're so isolated up there in your thinking position you've totally forgotten about the experience.  Let me offer you a suggestion.  Start a bran new noob character.  Go solo.  No clan.  Honestly play the game.  Then tell me how much FUN you had.

This game was fun before the wipe. Now, it's a boring, pointless hello kittying grind.

[Cmdr RideZ]

TP to FP was ok for many, including me.

I can still understand guys who try to defend their waters.  We can sail in their capital, attack some target and teleport away.  It does not sound that much of fun when you think it from the other side.  Revenge fleets work like player driven protected zones.

Revenge Fleets would actually work pretty well if capital waters were not the only places to find players.  The map is big, there are few players sailing there, it can take a whole evening to find someone, and there is a change that you eventually found none.  When we have 700 online how many of those are actually alts?  Capital waters also work as hubs to find people, and less people there are online more important these waters are.

One option could be that higher rank PvE missions provide only 1/2 gold and xp if done in capital region.  To get full/more gold&xp you have to sail to another region, even more if you do your PvE mission in enemy waters.  The last time we encouraged people to leave capital waters, it was pretty difficult to find people.  And this is how we make a full loop and come back to hubs and revenge ganks.

...

Devs really should merge PvP EU to PvP Global, property to redeemables.  If another server is needed later, you can just mirror Global to EU.  Maybe not the best to have 2 empty servers, instead of one that can reach +1000 players online at the same time.  If you participate in Steam Summer Sale, and if the server gets full and queued, then make a mirror.  It can be that we have lost many Global players just because Global server has low population.

Lord protector to define PB time for his/her region.

There is not enough players for 2 servers atm.

[TommyShelby]

5 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

TP to FP was ok for many, including me.

I can still understand guys who try to defend their waters.  We can sail in their capital, attack some target and teleport away.  It does not sound that much of fun when you think it from the other side.  Revenge fleets work like player driven protected zones.

Like you i get why some think revenge fleets is a good thing. 

This is why i suggest that you can TP to Freeport only as Defender in battle. So if you attack someone, you don't get option to TP to Freeport. 
However if you are attacked and escape, you get the option. 

Ofcourse this is only part of the proposal i have in mind.

[Cmdr RideZ]

12 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

This is why i suggest that you can TP to Freeport only as Defender in battle.

Often the fleet is mixed, and you cannot really do defensive tagging then.  You probably wrote your proposal to somewhere already?

Naval Action has also an alt "issue" which may turn teleportation to exploit.  Alts helping you out from enemy waters.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Encourage people to leave capital waters, like for example that PvE will give higher gold/xp rewards if done in other national regions, and even better if in enemy regions.

From the map we could see how many players visited each port for example in past 2 hours, and/or information how many players in each region. (Or something similar)

Then we do not have to sail to capital waters, and we have tools to find each other.

[Hethwill]

War.

War game.

Attack neighbors. Frontier regions are 15 minutes sail away.

Trade fuels war fuels trade.

[Jones el Tuerto]

On 2017-6-16 at 2:18 PM, admin said:

Conquest marks are not ideal indeed and there will be some changes. 

Thanks 

[King of Crowns]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 5:24 PM, Blackjack Morgan said:

Yea, I think the amount of time that probably went by was a bit longer than what we have in game. Having 1 repair to Hull and 1 to Rigging I think is a fair compromise to represent emergency repairs or "damage control" during a battle. What you use as an example sounds like an ongoing battle in which ships might have dropped out of the fight...conducted some repairs then rejoined the engagement. Like you said within a single day....well a single day is a lot longer period of time than our 90 minute max time period represents. Remember when we had multiple repairs in game before? And we all tested it and we all ended up coming to the same conclusion that it wasn't good? So, what do you think has changed that somehow it is a better solution now?

There are a lot of long time testers still here...people with multiple years of playing and testing and giving feedback.....we care about this game. Many with enough hours spent in it that it would represent at least a part time job if not a full time job over that period of time. I'd at least say it is not a bad idea to listen to the suggestions and feedback....Many of the issues like revenge fleets we tested, gave feedback and solutions, changes were made and it was good....then we throw those away and go back to a system that caused so many problems. I'd like to think we all actually want this game to be a success right?

the current repair system is fine. there is nothing wrong with it. what admin says is right. you must be aggressive and secure the kill and it wont pay off to play passive.

 

12 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

Like you i get why some think revenge fleets is a good thing. 

This is why i suggest that you can TP to Freeport only as Defender in battle. So if you attack someone, you don't get option to TP to Freeport. 
However if you are attacked and escape, you get the option. 

Ofcourse this is only part of the proposal i have in mind.

u just want to live forever!

[Blackjack Morgan]

2 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

the current repair system is fine. there is nothing wrong with it. what admin says is right. you must be aggressive and secure the kill and it wont pay off to play passive.

Yep that's me alright Mr. Passive.....

[King of Crowns]

7 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

Yep that's me alright Mr. Passive.....

then you should love current combat model. it rewards aggressiveness.

 

[Vernon Merrill]

5 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

then you should love current combat model. it rewards aggressiveness.

 

KoC, you should head over to Hat on the EU server and see what happens when you tag someone.... 

 

There's NOTHING rewarding about being aggressive right now. 

Eventually, everyone will just stop venturing into other areas of the map...  RISK is fun... CERTAIN DEATH is stupid...

[Blackjack Morgan]

3 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

the current repair system is fine. there is nothing wrong with it. what admin says is right. you must be aggressive and secure the kill and it wont pay off to play passive.

The truth of the matter is that multiple repair kits give a multiplicative advantage to the side with superior numbers....hence why I believe some people like it. Here is an example for simplicity sake: In the old system you are fighting in equal ships outnumbered 3 to 1.....and lets say each hull repair repairs 1000 hp's. The total combined healing power you would need to over come is 3,000 hp's to your 1000 hp's....you are at a 2000 hp deficit. In the new model if everyone had let's say 3 repair kits that can heal for 1000 ea you now are facing a combined healing capability of 9000 vs 3000....this is now a 6000 hp deficit you need to make up. Being aggressive in this scenario benefits the guy with the numbers advantage tremendously. 

They can afford to be borderline reckless with 1 of the ships early on and do as much damage as they can and simply gain distance while the other two keep there opponent locked down. He can heal up and rejoin multiple times. The simple truth is the more times you can heal in a battle the bigger advantage is given to the side with more ships. Not that they already didn't enjoy a lot of advantages but this is just another one....and probably the biggest. One of the reasons in real life a side that was at a disadvantage numerically could still win had more to do with "skill" and tactics....not to magical multiple healing buttons. Sure, ships might have dropped out of a battle and conducted emergency repairs to later rejoin a fight but I seriously doubt that could have been conducted in less than an hour. Nobody was conducting major repairs in the middle of battles....damage control yes, major repairs no.

Furthermore, in our revenge gank situation we have now you really put the outnumbered guy in a bad spot due to simple attrition of repair kits. You can just whittle 'em down and re-engage on the ow till eventually they can't even repair. There is nothing good that comes from this system other than to those who rely on having numerical superiority in every fight....... 

[King of Crowns]

4 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

The truth of the matter is that multiple repair kits give a multiplicative advantage to the side with superior numbers....hence why I believe some people like it. Here is an example for simplicity sake: In the old system you are fighting in equal ships outnumbered 3 to 1.....and lets say each hull repair repairs 1000 hp's. The total combined healing power you would need to over come is 3,000 hp's to your 1000 hp's....you are at a 2000 hp deficit. In the new model if everyone had let's say 3 repair kits that can heal for 1000 ea you now are facing a combined healing capability of 9000 vs 3000....this is now a 6000 hp deficit you need to make up. Being aggressive in this scenario benefits the guy with the numbers advantage tremendously. 

They can afford to be borderline reckless with 1 of the ships early on and do as much damage as they can and simply gain distance while the other two keep there opponent locked down. He can heal up and rejoin multiple times. The simple truth is the more times you can heal in a battle the bigger advantage is given to the side with more ships. Not that they already didn't enjoy a lot of advantages but this is just another one....and probably the biggest. One of the reasons in real life a side that was at a disadvantage numerically could still win had more to do with "skill" and tactics....not to magical multiple healing buttons. Sure, ships might have dropped out of a battle and conducted emergency repairs to later rejoin a fight but I seriously doubt that could have been conducted in less than an hour. Nobody was conducting major repairs in the middle of battles....damage control yes, major repairs no.

Furthermore, in our revenge gank situation we have now you really put the outnumbered guy in a bad spot due to simple attrition of repair kits. You can just whittle 'em down and re-engage on the ow till eventually they can't even repair. There is nothing good that comes from this system other than to those who rely on having numerical superiority in every fight....... 

multiple repairs helps the revenge fleet problem I would say. if your in a 15 knot ship and you take a defensive tag you will never be caught because they cant get the sails down enough to catch you............ EVER. this is why I don't understand why pvp eu people are having a hard time with revenge fleets. defensive tag in your fast ships and have plenty of sail repairs. you will never be caught............ NEVER.

as far as making the sides more stacked...... I don't know. I see your point. but if your group has more team play they can sink him before the repair comes into play. I say the repair system adds diversity to the battle that wasn't there before. we have been able to win some insane battles that woulda never been winnable pre patch. because of the ability to focus fire and cover wounded ships until they can repair.

Edited June 18, 2017 by King of Crowns

[King of Crowns]

8 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

KoC, you should head over to Hat on the EU server and see what happens when you tag someone.... 

 

There's NOTHING rewarding about being aggressive right now. 

Eventually, everyone will just stop venturing into other areas of the map...  RISK is fun... CERTAIN DEATH is stupid...

I am an American not a EURO I will play on global where I belong. I would suggest going to cartagina. or great corn. somewhere away from al the ports that have 100s of players around them all the time. this is what you have to do unless you have a large clan. and are able to field 10 ships. you cannot hunt capital areas anymore unless you have the numbers.

[Blackjack Morgan]

Just now, King of Crowns said:

multiple repairs helps the revenge fleet problem I would say. if your in a 15 knot ship and you take a defensive tag you will never be caught because they cant get the sails down enough to catch you............ EVER. this is why I don't understand why pvp eu people are having a hard time with revenge fleets. defensive tag in your fast ships and have plenty of sail repairs. you will never be caught............ NEVER.

as far as making the sides more stacked...... I don't know. I see your point. but if your group has more team play they can sink him before the repair comes into play. I say the repair system adds diversity to the battle that wasn't there before.

If you have a great team and you are fighting against idiots then yes you might...of course against idiots anything is possible. I don't think it is a smart balance move to base things off pro players versus idiots however. 

As far as everyone sailing around in 15 knot zoom zoom ships....well that is another topic of debate and a situation I'm not a fan of either. I will agree with your statement though that 15 knot ships with tremendous amounts of multiple rig repairs might never be caught....terrible design in my opinion. Even more so when we have things like copper hull being RNG....we already have placed a premium on speed and all of these further newly introduced game mechanics only further reinforce this. Anyone looking at things objectively and big picture should see how this is not only problematic now it will become worse.

 

[King of Crowns]

1 minute ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

If you have a great team and you are fighting against idiots then yes you might...of course against idiots anything is possible. I don't think it is a smart balance move to base things off pro players versus idiots however. 

As far as everyone sailing around in 15 knot zoom zoom ships....well that is another topic of debate and a situation I'm not a fan of either. I will agree with your statement though that 15 knot ships with tremendous amounts of multiple rig repairs might never be caught....terrible design in my opinion. Even more so when we have things like copper hull being RNG....we already have placed a premium on speed and all of these further newly introduced game mechanics only further reinforce this. Anyone looking at things objectively and big picture should see how this is not only problematic now it will become worse.

 

speed is the meta unless there is RVR happening. that's why the devs need to find a way to pit the RVR and PVP crowds together. the hostility sytem will work in doing that if people stop crying about the battle open timer. the smaller that window is the safer it is to grind hostility.

as far as revenge fleets. give me a 15knt surprise and I will sail around morti all day any day without ever being caught. no body could catch a player in a 15knt speed capped surprise who knows what they are doing. gank fleets are not the problem... players unwillingness to adapt to the new patch and current pop numbers is the problem. I Remember this time last year me and sheriff were sporting fir trincs as fast as they could be.... the only ship that had a chance at catching us was  a fir renomee. we never lost those ships to a gank fleet...... because we couldn't be caught and we knew how to defensive tag. my fir fir trinc still had 3 dura on it by the time of the wipe.

[Vernon Merrill]

1 minute ago, King of Crowns said:

speed is the meta unless there is RVR happening. that's why the devs need to find a way to pit the RVR and PVP crowds together. the hostility sytem will work in doing that if people stop crying about the battle open timer. the smaller that window is the safer it is to grind hostility.

as far as revenge fleets. give me a 15knt surprise and I will sail around morti all day any day without ever being caught. no body could catch a player in a 15knt speed capped surprise who knows what they are doing. gank fleets are not the problem... players unwillingness to adapt to the new patch and current pop numbers is the problem. I Remember this time last year me and sheriff were sporting fir trincs as fast as they could be.... the only ship that had a chance at catching us was  a fir renomee. we never lost those ships to a gank fleet...... because we couldn't be caught and we knew how to defensive tag. my fir fir trinc still had 3 dura on it by the time of the wipe.

Sorry, but I'm calling BS....   When EVERYONE has 15-knt ships, you WILL die like the rest of us....  You MAY get away in 4 or 5 instances, but rest assured, the net WILL widen and you WILL die.... 

Mechanics have overtaken skill, mate

[King of Crowns]

2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Sorry, but I'm calling BS....   When EVERYONE has 15-knt ships, you WILL die like the rest of us....  You MAY get away in 4 or 5 instances, but rest assured, the net WILL widen and you WILL die.... 

Mechanics have overtaken skill, mate

give me the ship and a streamer? surprise has 4 butt guns that have lazer guidance. ship that has a chance is a trinc and she cant catch the surprise upwind. and if I succeed TDA comes to global and rolls French.

Edited June 18, 2017 by King of Crowns

[Vernon Merrill]

6 minutes ago, King of Crowns said:

give me the ship and a streamer? surprise has 4 butt guns that have lazer guidance. ship that has a chance is a trinc and she cant catch the surprise upwind. and if I succeed TDA comes to global and rolls French.

doesn't matter mate, because eventually they'll be a ship that stays upwind or downwind  in the tag...   and again, you MAY get away from a few instances, but you WILL run out of repairs and escape routes... 

Ask me how I know.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, King of Crowns said:

give me a 15knt surprise and I will sail around morti all day any day without ever being caught.

Maybe you have been on Global server too long already.

I have understood that on EU ~everyone has 15kn Surprise.

...

And repair kits are of course favoring the side that has more ships.  Basically just supporting ganking, like pretty much everything else.  Which is a bit boring.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[King of Crowns]

3 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Maybe you have been on Global server too long already.

I have understood that on EU ~everyone has 15kn Surprise.

...

And repair kits are of course favoring the side that has more ships.  Basically just supporting ganking, like pretty much everything else.  Which is a bit boring.

I understand that but it would take 2 suprises both within effective chain range to just hold their ground against my surprise. so really to slow me down enough to catch me they need 3 suprises within effective chain range. and as I said give me a streamer (to prove it) and a surprise with the fit of my choosing and I will sail around morti for 12 hours without getting sunk.

Edited June 19, 2017 by King of Crowns

[King of Crowns]

btw if you can stack other mods (in the place of speed) such as turning like you can the speed I'm curious to see what some of these ships are capable of in battle. so lets all do some more testing before the make mods and ship knowledge useless pls. speed may save your life in battle or open world.. but a full tank trinc or indef is gonna cause anyone that catches them a lot of pain. and they wont realize it until its to late. so lets do some more testing. I mean we are talking a trinc that has possibility to have more HP than a  stock Bellona.

Edited June 19, 2017 by King of Crowns