Hotfix for patch 9.97: Land in port battles

[Hethwill]

5 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

20 secs is way to long for how small the tag circle is.  It give a fast chance some one to counter the tag cause they can switch to pref winds.  Sorry if I tag you when I get close and got the tag I want it should not be 20 secs later we get pulled in.  It should be more like 10 secs.   Cause it should be of the time I tag now almost half a min later.   If I'm that close to tag than he wasn't going to get away from me that easily.  Believe me if you ever been in combat a lot can happen in the span of 20 secs. 

20 seconds in OW timescale is a huge amount of time and distance.

Plus the point is not the get away, unless unarmed traders. The point is, the translation from a naval engagement to the game. There's no way you would sneak upon any ship without a ruse. So there's something amiss.

We can keep it quite simple without any further complications and reduce the tag timer and ensure the minimal distance position ( remember the old small circle around the target ? ) where the tag would be successful.

If you think about it, something like a 200 yards spawn, because of the "impossible tag" situation, will result in inflated crew casualties, in "unvariable winds" predominance and above all the naked exposure of how some ships race so much without any push back winds when tacking into it back and forth and again.

In the end a good tag simply does vaporize all the rest of considerations, placing a theoretical equal opponents that make all the right moves.

 

OW tag mechanic should be the show of intent. Battle instances should be the stage for the whole battle, from the initial approach to the outcome whatever it may be.

In here I cannot find a reasonable solution with the present "shot tag and time" mechanics. It would have to rely on closure rate.

 

 

 

[Ned Loe]

8 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Mast Thickness was increased.
Mast HP Increased. 
Reinf Masts Buffed. 

Tell me, are we balancing the game around relatively even fights or are we balancing the game around ganks? 

Gankers will always have an easy time, these changes will not change that. However it will remove Demasting from the game. Not because of HP Increase but because of Thickness increase.

I do not know who the Developers asked about Demasting and whether or not they should Buff mast thickness/HP. 
But i can tell you this much. The people they asked lack some serious knowledge.
Masts were fine before this hotfix. No reason, at all, to change it.

1. You don't need demast in 1vs1, Devs give you option to run anyway. 

2. You need demast penalty in gank cases and that is where 30% comes in handy.

3. 30% won't change much in PBs since damage output on focused target equals to 10-15 ships doing damage at once. So, 30% is perfect and focus fire will chew sails nicely.  

[TommyShelby]

Just now, Wind said:

1. You don't need demast in 1vs1

2. You need demast penalty in gank cases and that is where 30% come in handy.

3. 30% won't change much in PBs since damage output on focused target equals to 10-15 ships doing damage at once. So, 30% is perfect. 

So demast should not be viable in 1v1. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should not be viable in 5v5. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should not be viable in 10v10. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should however be viable in 5v1. (The 5 being in bigger ships than the 1)? 

The HP Buff MIGHT, MIGHT, have been alright. But its not just an HP Buff. Mast Thickness was increased like crazy and now the only demasting you will see is big ships demasting small ships.
 

[Ned Loe]

7 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

So demast should not be viable in 1v1. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should not be viable in 5v5. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should not be viable in 10v10. (Everyone in similar sized ships) 

Demast should however be viable in 5v1. (The 5 being in bigger ships than the 1)? 

The HP Buff MIGHT, MIGHT, have been alright. But its not just an HP Buff. Mast Thickness was increased like crazy and now the only demasting you will see is big ships demasting small ships.
 

How do carronades perform at close range when shooting sails? Let's say 24lbs Anyone tried.
 

btw, I would rather see 5vs5 shooting armor and not sails. Looking back in potbs, if it was a 5vs5 all went shoot to sink and later when numbers changed to 4vs1 let's say they went for sails and in our case 4vs1 will work and you will be able to cap a ship. 

[God Emperor Trump / Alan]

2 hours ago, Wind said:

Demasting is still a problem and I think 30% is perfect to keep players fighting side to side and not sails all the time. I had a fight in my Consti vs 2 Frigates. I was able to keep them off and enjoyed the fight up until they chewed my sails and fun was over. I had their armor down low, but I had no sails left to operate the 4th rate. This 30% is what I needed to keep fighting, it really works well in gank situations and will help many players. 

You are on the right track and if someone says it's too much I say it's not enough. Gank demasting is what is killing this game, making demast useless what you should do. Players should fight broadside to broadside. On the other hand, Demast in port battles will still work, since incoming damage is 10x heavier. 

This entire post is utter bollocks and I hope you disregard his "opinion", if it can even be called that.

Certainly whoever was asked about what to do about masts did not know what they were talking about. If I thought something was wrong with my car, I would not ask the post-man what he thought. I hope you find some good mechanics admin, because changes like these are not good.

The change was not warranted in any shape or form, demasting was in the sweet spot where it was as balanced as it will ever get.

I hope you will revert this change admin, and not listen to players such as Wind, who it seems want all battles to be W+M1 until either ship sinks.

[manuva85]

It is rediculesly sad how you can say it is ok... Right now we are back in chain meta... have fun

[elite92]

1 minute ago, manuva85 said:

It is rediculesly sad how you can say it is ok... Right now we are back in chain meta... have fun

arent we in the chain meta since penetration was introduced?

[manuva85]

Just now, elite92 said:

arent we in the chain meta since penetration was introduced?

I'm a super slow learner, so as long i could i dint chain... now there is no other way...

[Ned Loe]

12 minutes ago, Alan Demarest said:

This entire post is utter bollocks and I hope you disregard his "opinion", if it can even be called that.

Certainly whoever was asked about what to do about masts did not know what they were talking about. If I thought something was wrong with my car, I would not ask the post-man what he thought. I hope you find some good mechanics admin, because changes like these are not good.

The change was not warranted in any shape or form, demasting was in the sweet spot where it was as balanced as it will ever get.

I hope you will revert this change admin, and not listen to players such as Wind, who it seems want all battles to be W+M1 until either ship sinks.

It was not in the sweet spot. If Devs want to balance things more interestingly, just add debuff shot. LEt's say overloaded shot with chain +30% once per game. This shot must be fired precisely to get all 30% into the sails/masts. In this case Victim will need to maneuver go to Battle sails in order to Defend from such attack. 

All gankers are now complaining. Come out and fight broadside to broadside?

[elite92]

1 minute ago, manuva85 said:

I'm a super slow learner, so as long i could i dint chain... now there is no other way...

what if chain can damage masts? (like it was in reality)

[TommyShelby]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I actually agree.. I personally found demasting quite difficult at most engagement distances, but then I'm not an OCEAN-class sniper either. It could be done but it was a challenge. Now, I wonder whether it's even possible for frigate-class ships outside of using carros at spitting distance. It seems as a mechanic for the average player it won't be viable at all unless you're in line ships blasting an insane amount of ball at targets.

Even in OCEAN we only demasted in very rare situations before this hotfix. It was viable but shooting chain was just so much easier, especially because you can chain from a range where the enemy cannot penetrate your hull. However to demast you needed to be real fookin close. 

Before Hotfix: 
In fact, 32 Pd Carronades could still demast a Trincomalee from about 70 meters.
However 9pd Longs could not penetrate a Trinc Masts at all.
18pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 100. 
24pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 250.
32pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 375.
42pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 550.

After Hotfix:
Now. 32pd carro's can't penetrate Trinc masts.
18pd's can't Penetrate Trinc masts.
24pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 100 Meters.
32pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 250 Meters.
42pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 375 Meters.

I'll be happy to do this with other ships as well but basically this illustrates my point.
Before teh hotfix, it was a challenge to demast a ship without being pounded to Davy Jones Lockers before succesfully demasting. 
After the hotfix, impossible to demast unless you are in a bigger ship. And then it'll still be a challenge because when in a bigger ship you will want to keep smaller ships at a distance so they cannot rake you. 

Basically the viable tactics are now: Broadside Trading, Chaining, Raking. 
Before hotfix Demasting was barely Viable. 
Now it is not Viable at all. 

[Ned Loe]

7 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Even in OCEAN we only demasted in very rare situations before this hotfix. It was viable but shooting chain was just so much easier, especially because you can chain from a range where the enemy cannot penetrate your hull. However to demast you needed to be real fookin close. 

Before Hotfix: 
In fact, 32 Pd Carronades could still demast a Trincomalee from about 70 meters.
However 9pd Longs could not penetrate a Trinc Masts at all.
18pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 100. 
24pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 250.
32pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 375.
42pd Longs could penetrate Trinc Masts from about 550.

After Hotfix:
Now. 32pd carro's can't penetrate Trinc masts.
18pd's can't Penetrate Trinc masts.
24pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 100 Meters.
32pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 250 Meters.
42pd Longs can penetrate Trinc Masts from about 375 Meters.

I'll be happy to do this with other ships as well but basically this illustrates my point.
Before teh hotfix, it was a challenge to demast a ship without being pounded to Davy Jones Lockers before succesfully demasting. 
After the hotfix, impossible to demast unless you are in a bigger ship. And then it'll still be a challenge because when in a bigger ship you will want to keep smaller ships at a distance so they cannot rake you. 

Basically the viable tactics are now: Broadside Trading, Chaining, Raking. 
Before hotfix Demasting was barely Viable. 
Now it is not Viable at all. 

I don't get why do you need to demast? Is break rudder not enough? if a player wants to fight he will stay and fight. Devs said player can run any time if he wants to do so. 

However, if I am facing 2 Npcs and 2 Frigates in my 4th rate I want broadside to broadside sink action.

[Zoky]

2 minutes ago, Wind said:

 

However, if I am facing 2 Npcs and 2 players in my 4th rate I want broadside to broadside sink action.

Do u want them to not have cannons too? Or that they enter battle with only 10% HP? Or maybe they should introduce "I win" button coz "we are all special" 

[Ned Loe]

2 minutes ago, Zoky said:

Do u want them to not have cannons too? Or that they enter battle with only 10% HP? Or maybe they should introduce "I win" button coz "we are all special" 

We are all special at some point. Devs should just get nice data first and then fine tune it. Done.

[Prater]

The question shouldn't be "why do you need to demast?"  It should be, "why can't we demast?"  What is so wrong with demasting that it needs to be taken away?  We need to demast because we want to and because most engagements in real life ended up with at least one of the ships demasted.

 

Has anyone tested the new mast mechanics out?  I only see the admin saying this: 

Quote

Mast HP was modestly increased (30% on average)

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Prater

[Ellis]

There is no reason to replace a valid strategy, just because gankers happen to use them. 

Demasting should remain as a valid strategy, it allows you to manage an otherwise bad situation. Purely broadside trading will not work if you are in let's say a 2v1, by having demasting as a tactic it allows you to alter a situation and gives the player more strategic options.

[Pablo Frias]

So mast are made of (better) iron now? OMG. Now you´ll need 120 mm cannons to shot down a mast.... don´t undestand this (this and more stupid changes)

Edited December 21, 2016 by Pablo Frias

[Ned Loe]

5 minutes ago, Prater said:

The question shouldn't be "why do you need to demast?"  It should be, "why can't we demast?"  What is so wrong with demasting that it needs to be taken away?  We need to demast because we want to and because most engagements in real life ended up with at least one of the ships demasted?

It needs testing and fine tuning. I am sure it's not final value and will get adjusted once they get more data from fights. The increase is good, but like others said could be at Max allowed for comfortable level of gameplay. I would test more and wait for the Hotfix patch. Don't forget testing is uncomfortable feeling. 

[TommyShelby]

1 minute ago, Wind said:

I don't get why do you need to demast? Is break rudder not enough? if a player wants to fight he will stay and fight. Devs said player can run any time is he wants to do so. 

However, if I am facing 2 Npcs and 2 players in my 4th rate I want broadside to broadside sink action.

Eh. Player can run away any time he wants now you think? 
He cannot.... Chaining requires absolutely no skill and chain was being used in almost every battle before this hotfix. 
Demasting requires a lot of skill and experience (Yes, someone with little skill and little experience can do it too but it will take that person atleast 10 times longer).

Compare demasting to chaining:
Demasting: 
- Requires a lot of skill, practice and experience. 
- Requires you to get in close and expose yourself to enemy fire. 
- Effect comes in to play when a ship lose a mast, which can take some time. 

Chaining:
- Requires no skill, no practice and no experience. Just point and click.
- Can be done from a range at which you aren't in danger of taking damage. 
- Immediate effect. 

Why do we remove Demasting but let Chaining stay? I don't understand. 
Like really, why? 

[Ned Loe]

Let's try not to call each other names and keep it nice and clean. Devs did the change not people who express their opinions. 

Thanks. 

[D.Devil]

Why'd you get the option to get teleported to a port? Why don't they make it so we get forced back to OW, I thought they want to encourage PVP a bit more.

[The Iron Duke]

Rather than changing the in-game battle strategy in order to reduce ganking, why don't the developers change the game mechanics to reduce it. We have seen the developers try to reduce ganking by changing the way the game is played a number of times, to no avail. Maybe a different approach would garner the expected results; after all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. 

 

[Lord Vicious]

2 minutes ago, Wind said:

Let's try not to call each other names and keep it nice and clean. Devs did the change not people who express their opinions. 

Thanks. 

learn to play the game then instead defend a stupid decision, nobody asked for or was waiting for simply becouse you a mod and you  cant think with your own brain.  

 

and stop censor who not think like you want, becouse  there is already enought sychophants here

Edited December 21, 2016 by Lord Vicious

[Ned Loe]

5 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Eh. Player can run away any time he wants now you think? 
He cannot.... Chaining requires absolutely no skill and chain was being used in almost every battle before this hotfix. 
Demasting requires a lot of skill and experience (Yes, someone with little skill and little experience can do it too but it will take that person atleast 10 times longer).

Compare demasting to chaining:
Demasting: 
- Requires a lot of skill, practice and experience. 
- Requires you to get in close and expose yourself to enemy fire. 
- Effect comes in to play when a ship lose a mast, which can take some time. 

Chaining:
- Requires no skill, no practice and no experience. Just point and click.
- Can be done from a range at which you aren't in danger of taking damage. 
- Immediate effect. 

Why do we remove Demasting but let Chaining stay? I don't understand. 
Like really, why? 

I understand, but with only 1 repair you can just kite anyone to Death. Don't you get it? You really want to call Kiting a skill? I understand if repairs would reset every 10 mins it would be a different story. 

[Ned Loe]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vicious said:

learn to play the game then instead defend a stupid decision, simply becouse you a mod and you  cant think with your own brain.  

We have seen enough of yours. I appreciate your feedback.