Changes to PB and battles: "the 1st rate problem"

[Legioneod]

I've never played port battles so I don't know how it works, but why not just add objectives that only certain ships can complete or take? That way you will have to have a variety of ships to win the port. This would eliminate the 1st rate problem and allow newer players or players of a lower rank to participate.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Legioneod

[Boone]

You could restrict 1st and 2nd rates to regional capitol ports and max 3rd rates to deep ports instead of just deep and shallow.

[Vaan De Vries]

Why are we talking about newbies participating in PB. Will they do any good keeping more experienced people from the PB? Newbies can always participate in screening or harassing enemy. Just yesterday we lost a Victory (our own mistake of course for not protecting it better) AFTER PB for Macanao, cause part of Swedish screening fleet tied into battle our screener and other part tagged our Victory and several Bellonas (myself included) into battle and thus allow their SOLs to catch up with us. Victory wasn't able to outrun Frigates - we were forced to accept battle in uneven terms and lost a Victory and Bellona and 3 rd rate. I think I was the only one able to leave after they sunk our Victory.

 

That's the example of work Frigates and other small ships can and should do. But in PB itself as in the all major sea battles in reality the place is only for heaviest ships.

 

But again, let high tier ships be more valuable. Actually make gold and resources be more valuable. Cause in today's PB (again, Macanao) I got a Victory kill and 4 assists for other vessels on my Bellona and after that battle I got 5601 xp and around 500k gold. But do you know what I can buy with all these money? Nothing! Cause crafter queue is full and the ony valuable resource in economy now is crafting hours. As soon as enough crafters will level up we will have really endless 1st rates source.

 

Currently I am leveling my own crafter crafting basic cutters (cause for some reason it has the best hours/xp ratio) and I just buy all needed materials in Willemstad from people whi still thinks money is an issue in this game.

 

The issue is economy. Make it work. Make gold and resources actually mean anything. 

[CptEdwardKenway]

I would say there should only be 10 ships of the line in port battle with limited br. like you have 10 ships and 5k br and it's up to you how you mix it. 10 3rd rates or less than 10 ships with 2nd or 1 st rates. And you have other ships also with limited br. You can choose if you want to fight just a few big frigate class like Consti or Trinco or with more smaller firgates.

[Anne Wildcat]

 

At the same time, that fleet of 25 slow moving SOLs sound pretty vulnerable in the open world to a screening fleet , so I think this is the balance.

I may be wrong, but I don't think a screening fleet, unless it contains SoLs itself, will have the BR to attack 25 SoLs all sailing hunched up together.

[Grundal]

I would recommend an order of battle requirement for anything over 3rd rate.  Meaning to sail a Victory a captain would require 1 or 2 (number to be determined) of 4th rated or lower ships as support ships.  There would have to be a mechanism to allow for if the support vessels are sunk or captured, then what would the 3rd rate or higher ship do. And there would have to be game mechanics in place to ensure that the requirements were not gamed in some way.  Leave port with support ships but immediately ditch them.  The game mechanic could be a timer or a penalty of some kind. 

 

Anyways just a thought from a miniatures game I played. WaS.

[DrunkenSloth]

There's a reason why I never do port battles, it's because it's basically just bringing the largest fleet of ships you can and slugging it out, I believe capturing a port needs to have more than just one stage. You should have to defeat a defense fleet before you can even enter the port, I'm not talking simply an interception fleet but rather when the flag is planted a battle begins with no towers, and if the attackers win they can begin the assault, but if defenders win the port battle doesn't begin. Something needs to change so that big ships aren't the only way to win. Right now it seems whoever grinds AI the most and gets the biggest ships wins, where as in real life having the biggest stick meant nothing if the right person wasn't swinging it.

[CptEdwardKenway]

Maybe some kind of potbs mechanic would also be great. You would have to prepare the ports for battles. Sinking and boarding ships. Plunder etc. So you would need smaller ships for that anyway. It would also solve the problem with the huge amount of port battles each day and port battles itself would unique events. This would bring the PvP action to where it belongs: the open sea.

 

It would not solve the problem with the balance right now but it would make it impossible to zerg one nation within 2 days.

[Hyperion74]

I write this looking towards the future of this game. I am not sure about the mechanics of the currant state of the PB system so this is only speaking of the way I would like to see it. From what I have read, the only way to be involved in a PB now is to have a big boat and have done all that is required to have the rank and money to sail that big boat. This cancels out anyone who does not have a big boat from participating in a PB and subsequently in RvR. I hate to bring up the other game(POTBS) but the PB process was a good idea. Attack anything around that port to build up contention points and follow the process to the eventual PB. PvE and PvP were a part of this process. Players could take place in this regardless of rank or ship and therefore they could contribute to the port contention. I spent many fun hours doing this. I took part in a few PB's as well. I think that if nations are at war, there should be a way for all players to add something to the war effort. If a PvP'er sinks the ship of an enemy player, or a player takes an enemy tagged AI ship, there should be a way that this somehow contributes to the war effort. Pertaining to first and second rates only in a PB, the players decide this. It the nation/faction/clan wants to commit to using all first rates it is their decision. The only way to get some diversity in battles is if the players decide it. An MMO is a player driven game so the players need to decide how it's going to be played. If the game play is fraked up due to the players it will be up to the players to change things. It seems to me, from reading the forums, that there are a lot of players who don't care for fun, only winning. Please, somebody, tell me I'm wrong.

 

I personally would like to see a PB with SOL's to slug it out and frigates to skirmish. Better yet, a big frigate fur ball. Mostly, I just want to have fun in this game.

[Snapplejack]

Simply using BR to limit participation feels very artificial when there are 25 1st rates available in the nation. Much better to implement changes that have follow on effects that limit the total number of 1st rates in game, which cold include...

1. Slow down crafting of rated ships, in terms of cost/resources and time to craft.

2. Only allow Admiralty to hand out BPS for rated ships, and limit the production run of those BPs.

3. Only allow rated ships to be based at specific ports, such as regional capitals.

4. Introduce supply requirements.

5. Reform the rank system so that nations. aren't so top heavy with Admirals.

6. When land in battles is added, include harbour depth to limit the utility of deep drafted rates.

7. Include variable wind conditions in battle to increase the utility of light ships that can respond better.

[Hater_Actual]

First off thanks to the OP for creating this thread, and to all those contributing ideas. This is currently the largest problem I've seen in Naval Action, and it completely negates most of the roles or reason for Frigate's and their captains, which ironically enough were the meat and potatoes of the navies operating at this time. As is the Port Battle mechanics and amount of SOLs turns the game into a bit of a grind for many players. Step 1, grind to Mercury for shallow port battles. Step 2, grind to 3rd rate at least for deep water port battles. Players should enjoy their time playing the middle ground and be happy to have their frigate/corevette. I don't have much that hasn't already been suggested, I suppose working on the drafts available to ports is one, and max BR sounds reasonable as well. Hope to see more posts here, so that we can see this game improve and be what we hope it to be.

[Jomppeli]

Good ideas here, I'd like to see lower-rank ships in some use at PB as well.

[Taranis]

I actually look forward to changes in port defenses.  As hard hitting as deep water towers can be for lower level frigates (cerbs, renomees, surprises) 5 towers can be quite light defense, if there are no enemies defending the port - and particularly so if 3rd rates or even larger ships show up.  Perhaps there could be additional levels of port defenses.  Ultimately, defenses could also be the result of player improvements.  Just as players buy buildings, they could buy port defense improvements.

[BarnesBL0278]

This will be third time I've posted this somewhere, but I have an actual suggestion to help fix the slow creep towards all 1st rate battles.  I really hope to get some response to this, as it is most definitely an issue.  I genuinely love this game, and see it as a unique and very different type of game than anything else out there.  This game has great potential for some very exciting fights.  But let's be real, here.  In game, people like winning.  MMO players (who will flock to this game) view everything as a tier progression.  Bigger is better, always, and not using your maximum possible ship is just flat silly.  That's natural, and the only way to counter it is to provide risks.

Currently, devs and even players have stated that the economy can solve the Santi creep, but this is untrue.  Over time, people will gather resources as surely as they gather rank.  This means that they will have those ships, and they will have them in numbers.  Even now on PVP1, the pirates are running 6 or 7 1st rates to every single port battle.  This number will only increase.  I can say for a fact that many people that I have talked to have determined that they are going to grind out the resources necessary for 1st rates, as 3rd rates are at such a disadvantage against a massive 1st rate fleet that we can't compete.

I have a solution.  It is very simple, it is very easy, and it is very straightforward.  Institute a reputation system where reputation is gained solely through PVP fights.  This system will utilize these reputation points to be cashed in for orders.  You may only have one set of orders for each rate at any time, and these orders act as a module (like officers or upgrades) that can be placed on any ship of a specific rate.  For example, 3rd rate orders will be placeable on 3rds and Bellonas, 2nd on Pavels, 1st on Vics or Santis.  These orders are lost when a ship is permanently sunk, just like other modules.  When they are lost, you must grind reputation again to purchase them.

Orders would be required for a ship to leave port, making some ports extremely valuable if they house multiple rated vessels, since only one could be moved per player.

This has several advantages.  First is that people who powergrind PVE ships would not be gaining orders.  This would encourage PVP.  Second, people who do well in PVP would be given command of rated ships, just like in real life.  Third, ships would be far more valuable at rates that require orders.  This would limit rated vessels to important fights or special occasions OR if a player has a surplus of PVP experience and is good enough to stockpile reputation points, whenever they damn well felt like it since they could replace the orders instantly.

Additionally, unlike other solutions, this solution would make ALL players grind reputation from the beginning, meaning those that had already stockpiled multitudes of ships wouldn't be able to steamroll those that hadn't before the solution was put into place.

Large clans would still have an advantage, because ganking could produce large amounts of reputation, and there would be ships waiting for captains.  This advantage, however, would be dependent upon that clan's willingness to actually PVP.

For those that don't PVP as often, such as traders and crafters, there's not too great a downside, as the sudden and massive reduction in rated vessels sailing around makes their frigates and connies far more viable.  3rd rates could be relatively easy to get orders for, but it would still limit the capped 3rd rate zerg rush that seems to be so popular.  Likewise, teleporting to any old outpost for rapid defense would be limited to frigates unless a nation was very wise in its placement of rated ships (1 per rate per player, right?) which would then make intelligence and recon far more important.

I believe this will help in all parts of the game, not just port battles or general OW, but in both.  I believe that it will add yet another layer of complexity and richness to this beautiful game, and will help limit end-game burnout by keeping rated ships "special," even for the most veteran of players.  Instead of a player playing hard for a few weeks and having as many top line ships as he wants, he now has to think strategically when he pulls that ship from port.  That might sound like an annoyance, but it will make it very unique and frightening when he DOES pull that ship out.  Players will always be able to get that feeling of being the biggest fish in the pond, no matter how long the game lasts, because players will be stingy with their rated ships, just like the real navies were.

Anyway, I welcome input.  Agree or disagree, I really do want to hear people's thoughts on this as I feel that SOL creep is a major problem for the future of this game.

[Blood Eagle]

I really don't know how they are going to fix port battles. If you remove the ablity for players to sail their own ship in a port battle, and they get a pre-determined ship, that would basically make having a 1st rate rather useless, as what are you going to use it for?

 

The BR thing can be probmatic as well useless you can figure out a way to calculate it before a battle. It would be totally stupid for a fleet to arrive at a port and all can't get in because they couldnt calculate numbers propertly.

 

I personally think they just need to teir more ports, such as swallow, deep, regional caps, ect, and only allow 1st and 2nds into certain port battles. There should be a tier for mid level ships because the gap from Cerb to 1st rate is strong...

 

Why not have it like this

 

Swallows - cutter to Merc

Deep - Cerb to Trin

Regionals - Connie and above

Edited March 29, 2016 by Dirtydiggler

[charognard666]

I really don't see why you think a 25 ships fleet of victory/ santi is a problem... You clan or nation can provide it for each Pb ? Well np, just use it, other side will use it too if they can and others ships are for OW battle. 

 

A non problem for me.

[BarnesBL0278]

Because it essentially makes them the only ship to sail. That means to keep people interested the devs will have to keep coming out with bigger and bigger ships. It doesn't get any bigger than the Santi, though, so that's a problem. It also makes it very difficult for people who aren't yet rear admirals to develop a love for PVP, since they can't hope to be competitive in a ship less than a vic.

[charognard666]

And ?? they do what every body have done before them, they work in order to have their first rank... Really nothing wrong. And don't assume anybody will sail and can replace a Victory in the hour.... And if you can't expect your ship before some days, you ll must sail an another one... 

 

And all others ships have some kind of utility in OW pvp... 

 

Are u interesting only in the next ship ??? When you'll get your victory, you'll sail it few days and leave ? Seriously... 

[BarnesBL0278]

Don't pass me off as a content whore. I've been playing this game since you paid on paypal and waited until friday, so I think I've proven my commitment. This is Naval Action, not SOL Battle Royale.

Even outside of port battles, the SOL creep is very clear, so open world utility is limited in the future for unrated ships.

As for grinding, we had the advantage of PVPING on roughly equal footing. New players will not have that. And for the record, did you even read my post like 4 posts back? I never said not to use SOLs. Quite the contrary. I don't want a BR limit or some arbitrary mechanic that nullifies a player's work. Go read my proposal before you fucking insult me again. I think you'd actually rather like it.

As for what I sail, I sail a Connie, and I literally will not get into an SOL unless I have to for some reason. A lot of my friends prefer rated vessels, but I'm content with a frigate. It's why I bought the game. Hell, if I can get my hands on an essex, I'll sail that too. Problem is, most people will not sail anything less than their biggest ship, which actually limits them and will cause player retention issues. But go, read my post before you respond again. I'd kill to hear input on the idea.

[Bach]

When is this myth going to be finally strangled and thrown in a river?

 

Santissima Trinidad was built in Havana, along with many other SoLs.

Perhaps, but not in numbers of hundreds and not in three days time each.