Patch 9.65 - Crew and resource production

[Capt. Rice]

From what I've read in the Royal Navy, there was at least one Marine per main gun. The number of marines on board Royal Naval ships depended on the size of the ship and was generally kept at a ratio of one marine per ship gun, plus officers. For example: a First Rate Ship of the Line contained 104 marines while a 28 gun Frigate had 29.  Point is the Marines did more than just sit around and wait to board an enemy or disembark on a land assault, they certainly did not take away from the crew gunnery crew.

There will be no sloths on my ship.......

[admin]

please bring production and labor discussions to this topic

if you have already shared your opinion here please repost it in that topic - it is very hard to track if it is everywhere

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/11796-feedback-on-production-buildings

[Quineloe]

But the cost of ships will possibly come down in time, as the impact of production buildings is felt. The increase in Gold & XP from PVP may lead to an increase in demand / price inflation, but the production buildings may very well lead to a significant increase in supply, and the net result may be the reduction in ship costs, at least after the initial adjustment period. To be seen, I think.

 

As I've presented earlier, it depends on how many players get an inflated "assist" reward for the kill.

A trincomalee is worth around 10k on kill, another 10k for the damage it takes to kill it.

 

A trincomalee costs 145k to craft exceptional at minimum price for all resources.

Therefore, a 1v1 Trincomalee kill is _always_ a money sink.

 

Ganking a ship and giving 4-5 people assist rewards on top of it might generate more money than it destroys - assuming of course the ship and the resources to build it never went through the shop and therefore also incurred the 10% listing fee. If we start factoring that in (ie another 50k on top just for listing the ship), it's becoming harder and harder to reach that threshold.

 

I'm fairly convinced that most PVP battles destroy far more assets than they create. The numbers I've observed from countless fights so far indicate this.

[Black Knight the first]

As I've presented earlier, it depends on how many players get an inflated "assist" reward for the kill.

A trincomalee is worth around 10k on kill, another 10k for the damage it takes to kill it.

 

A trincomalee costs 145k to craft exceptional at minimum price for all resources.

Therefore, a 1v1 Trincomalee kill is _always_ a money sink.

 

Ganking a ship and giving 4-5 people assist rewards on top of it might generate more money than it destroys - assuming of course the ship and the resources to build it never went through the shop and therefore also incurred the 10% listing fee. If we start factoring that in (ie another 50k on top just for listing the ship), it's becoming harder and harder to reach that threshold.

 

I'm fairly convinced that most PVP battles destroy far more assets than they create. The numbers I've observed from countless fights so far indicate this.

Not necessarily accurate. Example: I know a lot of folks who use capped ships in battle. That cost them nothing and if they're sunk pays out pretty well. Last night: I took one sink in my frigate (happens when you're the bait, sometimes), sank two, and assisted on another two plus a connie. The loss of my one durability was minor, and paid me back for what I put in to the ship between cash and xp gains. In general- PVP has become quite profitable for me. I would consider myself an above average player, but certainly not in the top ten percent of players.

[Capt. Rice]

Not necessarily accurate. Example: I know a lot of folks who use capped ships in battle. That cost them nothing and if they're sunk pays out pretty well. Last night: I took one sink in my frigate (happens when you're the bait, sometimes), sank two, and assisted on another two plus a connie. The loss of my one durability was minor, and paid me back for what I put in to the ship between cash and xp gains. In general- PVP has become quite profitable for me. I would consider myself an above average player, but certainly not in the top ten percent of players.

yes this is a good way to make some money pretty much for free.

[DrZoidberg]

So much wall of text and run ons i cant read it all but your anger is showing through. It will all be ok just step away have a smoke take deep breaths. We are all in this together and this is not a finished game for the love of God.

The devs are building a game with our input and help. Dont rage and instead make useful suggestions.

Hmmm. i never played game before where i made so much idea, so much post than in this game. I got answer only one time, when i wrote: "i think i remember devs say something". The "thing" was all the same, but 1 developer just told me, dont lie. how can he wrote when i wrote "i think i remember so.....".   When a spanish player just told his opinion on one patch, one developer just started rude gestures against the whole spanish nation. After this two incident, after see the developers work from the start, after not getting clear statements of the plans, clear answers to my questions (what i asked like 10 times, and not any answer) i dont think i should be patient. For example why they couldnt write that family share will be prohibited after this patch, and let players empty thier outpost before patch. They worked for that materials with ingame time. i havent got family shared character, but 1 of my friend just lost 1/2 of his materials and money, and he left. Do u think this is fair? Do u think its fair that we dont have clear developers plans after paying 30 euro for an early acces, what wont be more ever than it is nowdays (in my opinion)? What do u think mate, will this game ever have more players than now in early acces? I think it wont. Its not about its a bad game, its about devs work imo. U can be patient, my friend, but u will loose it as me in the end...

Edited March 11, 2016 by DrZoidberg

[Fletch Hardy]

Hmmm. i never played game before where i made so much idea, so much post than in this game. I got answer only one time, when i wrote: "i think i remember devs say something". The "thing" was all the same, but 1 developer just told me, dont lie. how can he wrote when i wrote "i think i remember so.....".   When a spanish player just told his opinion on one patch, one developer just started rude gestures against the whole spanish nation. After this two incident i dont think i should be patient, especially that we had really important questions in forums, but we never get answer. Why they couldnt write that family share will be prohibited after this patch, and let players empty thier outpost before patch. They worked for that materials with ingame time. Do u think this is fair? Do u think its fair that we dont have clear developers plans after paying 30 euro for an early acces, what wont be more ever than it is nowdays (in my opinion)? U can be patient, my friend, but u will loose it as me in the end...

 

I think you answered your own question in your statement.  It is an Early Access game, in alpha stage.  There will be headaches, there will be mistakes, but also remember these are new developers, and it sounds like the team behind this is not that big.  Have some patience and act like a mature individual and you'll most likely get what your asking for.  They are doing a FINE job so far, and I for one am very grateful for their hard work, and their communication, which is much better than many developers.

[Mrdoomed]

Hmmm. i never played game before where i made so much idea, so much post than in this game. I got answer only one time, when i wrote: "i think i remember devs say something". The "thing" was all the same, but 1 developer just told me, dont lie. how can he wrote when i wrote "i think i remember so.....". When a spanish player just told his opinion on one patch, one developer just started rude gestures against the whole spanish nation. After this two incident, after see the developers work from the start, after not getting clear statements of the plans, clear answers to my questions (what i asked like 10 times, and not any answer) i dont think i should be patient. For example why they couldnt write that family share will be prohibited after this patch, and let players empty thier outpost before patch. They worked for that materials with ingame time. i havent got family shared character, but 1 of my friend just lost 1/2 of his materials and money, and he left. Do u think this is fair? Do u think its fair that we dont have clear developers plans after paying 30 euro for an early acces, what wont be more ever than it is nowdays (in my opinion)? What do u think mate, will this game ever have more players than now in early acces? I think it wont. Its not about its a bad game, its about devs work imo. U can be patient, my friend, but u will loose it as me in the end...

Um , its early access to a alpha game , so yeah i would say everything is pretty fair but i read what i was buying into sooooo yeah.

Considering what still has to be done i think the dev team is doing a good job. I guess its your prerogative to be so mad but seems like wasted energy and no i wont " lose it" . I have a better grasp on my life and games it seems so i will be fine.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Mrdoomed

[sage2]

West coast NA player here. The new server maintenance times are really bad - I can only play after the fam is in bed. This means I can play less than an hour before I have to log for maintenance. Very lame, two thumbs down.

[Fletch Hardy]

West coast NA player here. The new server maintenance times are really bad - I can only play after the fam is in bed. This means I can play less than an hour before I have to log for maintenance. Very lame, two thumbs down.

 

I have not really noticed, but how often do they do server maintenance?

[Capt. Rice]

I have not really noticed, but how often do they do server maintenance?

every night i believe

[Grim DeGrim]

I suppose if we all played on our respective continental servers, it would be a non-issue

[Capt. Rice]

I suppose if we all played on our respective continental servers, it would be a non-issue

but i like the (hate and love) between each nation in global pvp2.... currently im fine with the midnight MT even though i live on the west coast, im just curious about the ports who had capture times around the old MT times

[surfimp]

As I've presented earlier, it depends on how many players get an inflated "assist" reward for the kill.

A trincomalee is worth around 10k on kill, another 10k for the damage it takes to kill it.

 

A trincomalee costs 145k to craft exceptional at minimum price for all resources.

Therefore, a 1v1 Trincomalee kill is _always_ a money sink.

 

OK, but following that line of reasoning: it costs 145k to craft the Trinc at minimum price for all resources (and with production buildings now in place, prices should start trending downwards I guess?), so each durability is worth 29k gold.

 

Presumably this crafted Trinc will be doing something and not just getting shot. Assuming it can do ~9k gold on damage it inflicts while getting sunk, it's pretty much a break-even? Or at least very close?

[surfimp]

I suppose if we all played on our respective continental servers, it would be a non-issue

 

Still an issue, as the maintenance affects all servers at the same time, or at least, in the same maintenance window - it happens at 8:00am GMT now (12:00 midnight Pacific). Doesn't matter whether you play on PVP1, PVP2, whatever.

[Quineloe]

OK, but following that line of reasoning: it costs 145k to craft the Trinc at minimum price for all resources (and with production buildings now in place, prices should start trending downwards I guess?), so each durability is worth 29k gold.

 

Presumably this crafted Trinc will be doing something and not just getting shot. Assuming it can do ~9k gold on damage it inflicts while getting sunk, it's pretty much a break-even? Or at least very close?

 

Don't forget it's only 4 durability. On the fifth you lose the cannons and outfittings, which is far more expensive than just buying another ship.

 

But the other guy was right. If people PVP in captured ships, they will lose much less money. Do ships with 3-4 gun slots have cannons in all of them?

 

However, if people use captured ships instead of crafted ships to PVP and sink in those, there's not much demand for shipwrights. I'd rather have the majority of ships used and sunk in PVP to be crafted, but currently the game is heading the opposite direction. I don't know the numbers obviously, but I'd be surprised if more than 1 out of 4 third rates sent to port battles is crafted.

[Brogsitter]

Current building production numbers are designed to provide a solo player the opportunity to gather all resources required for Santisima in 7 real life days (1 week). Some buildings only require 60 hours for a 3 day production storage some buildings require 750 hours (coal). So you always have some hours left to work materials. If you continue buying materials you will get it faster.

Buildings solve one problem - they provide guaranteed resources without the need to trade and bid on contracts.

All the talk - "buildings consume my precious labor hours" sound strange because they don't consume much but guarantee your suplly

No offense, but the current system is a complete fail, due to missing knowledge. I will go into the Details once i have returned from my weekend.

Maybe some of the good old potbs economical gurus can get in contact with me, so we can figure something out, wich is not gonna end in a huge mess of hotfixes.

Cheers

[Wang]

To the guys complaining about server maintenance, i firstly love how so many people didnt even know there was maintenance daily....

 

The Oceanic/Asian timezone has had it smack bang in their prime time all this time.  8pm every night.  Now their is a handful of west coast guys complaining its at 12am?

 

We now have maintenance at 6pm which isnt ideal either but something much much better. 

 

I do apologize to the handful of people this change has affected, but i do think its a handful.  12am a game to go down is quiet acceptable. Go to bed.  

[Coderre]

As I've presented earlier, it depends on how many players get an inflated "assist" reward for the kill.

A trincomalee is worth around 10k on kill, another 10k for the damage it takes to kill it.

 

A trincomalee costs 145k to craft exceptional at minimum price for all resources.

Therefore, a 1v1 Trincomalee kill is _always_ a money sink.

 

Ganking a ship and giving 4-5 people assist rewards on top of it might generate more money than it destroys - assuming of course the ship and the resources to build it never went through the shop and therefore also incurred the 10% listing fee. If we start factoring that in (ie another 50k on top just for listing the ship), it's becoming harder and harder to reach that threshold.

 

I'm fairly convinced that most PVP battles destroy far more assets than they create. The numbers I've observed from countless fights so far indicate this.

 

This info is just plain wrong, first of all the listing fee is 10% of the ship price, but 10% of 145k != 50k. Secondly, 145k as a minimum price since the introduction of production buildings is wrong. At this moment producing an exceptional Trincomalee would only cost you 60k to produce. I know you probably got that number from pre-patch, but we are discussing the new patch here.

[Sin Khan]

Only shipyards.

 

This is a multiplayer game sir.  One person isn't supposed to be able to do it all.  

 

Team up with some other people and rule the market!

 

Ok so its been a few days and here is my feedback.

 

1. The developers do not understand how to make a player driven economy.

 

First you enable complete monopolies on goods through a fail contract only system. Then, you increase the supply of NPC production and enable euro tradesmen to help "Fix" that failed system. Now, you want to force players to craft only half of what they need and control the port though battle just to be able to do that. All while trying to eliminate the npc supplies, which was the only solution you had to fix the first problem you created from contracts.

 

Ships and supplies will now be exclusive items. Those that craft them will completely dominate the market. Why? Because only certain types of players even like to interact with others to get what they need and even a smaller portion of those players want to spend a majority of their time crafting things. Your player driven economy will completely grind to a halt from psychology factors alone and players will not do what you force them to do, they will simply leave the game and be right in doing so.

 

People who do craft and make ships will not even bother to do so because most players will simply not afford the new outrageous cost. The only ships that will be made at all will be very high level ships that are hard to cap. Everyone else in the game will be piloting capped ships 90% of the time. This will make crafting ships mostly irrelevant as a new system of capping for ships will completely replace your flawed crafting system.

 

In essence. you will lose your solo players, your crafting players, and your trade players. The only player base you will have left is your pvp players using only capped ships for combat. As well, the dire supply system will make the world static and nation agreements will have to be set just to enable pvp players to make what little supplies they can. So while you want to encourage town capping, it will have the exact opposite effect as nations will simply agree not to cap each others 1million dollar paid for ports. 

 

So much time will be spent capping traders for supplies and capping ships for clan members crafting and trade itself will be null and void. The balance of cost verses benefit simply will not be there to justify crafting resource and ships at all. And of course, because everyone will be in single dura capped ships all the time battles will be either a careful selection, or a system of constant replacement of single dura capped ships from npcs after every major battle. Once again, your NPC trade ships and NPC fleets and resources will be the only thing left to fix the broken system. Oh and lets not forget that you will see everyone doing as many battles they can in the basic cutter forever.

 

So congrats, you made a pirate the npc forever game now for ships and supplies.. Do me a favor and just stop trying to make a player economy because you clearly do not know how to make one.

 

 

 

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What would be my solutions to fix it all?

 

1. You will have to keep NPC make port supplies in the game just like before because , like before, it is the only way to fix the problems.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Sin Khan

[sacapus]

I waited to explored these new features before posting, I'm positevely pleased with 85% of the patch, Great Work Dev!

I think some aspect will have to be revisited, and re-polished a little, no disrespect

 

1- Buildings;

While I understand the principle of specialization (Crafters, Manufacturer, Traders, Fighters) I would like to do them all in-game but producing ressources must worth the time, efforts and generate a reasonable amount of profit, no one is working for peanuts anymore, slavery has been abolished in civilized countries. In the actual form, its just not profitable to produce ressources due to labor hours, the number of labor hours should at least be cut in half to make it interesting.

 

2- Crafting;

Likes the new notes, Likes that more ressources are available to trade. Realistically, country at war shouldn't be carrying enemy products, its public knowledge that during wars, enemy product are bans from the market. You should be able to get them Buy/Sell in free port or plundered from enemy traders but you shouldn't be able to buy them in your country town, raiding French ships to get French wine as an example, would make the game more interesting in PVE. If these ressources are present in your own town, it should only be for selling on black market at a huge profit due to the risk taken by the captain carrying them, these products should be considered as "Illegal Goods" and you can be attacked for carrying it like currently work for NPC.

 

3- Crew Management;

I love the crew management  generally speaking, great addition to the game model. Only 2 things...

a) Too many man assigned to handle guns, the number should be tweaked down a little.

There should be an option to turn Off marine when they are not needed, There's no way marine (Soldiers) were only assigned as "Sentry" during cannon fights, no one in his right mind would not utilized them to handle cannons until they are needed for boarding, they should be activated and building up gradually prior to boarding but I should be able to utilized them for other task in the meantime, when a ship is fighting for it survival, these marines will be down on lower decks patching leaks, that's for sure.

 

4- Sailing;

Love that ships don't turn anymore at 0 kts.

 

5- NPC Traders Cargo seems to be better, not sure if it was part of the patch, but there is a little more product on larger ship than before making more interesting to attack Snow & Brig traders, before they used to carry less cargo than lynx and cutter traders.

 

Devs, Keep up the good work, I'm loving it!

 

 

[Kanay]

Correct me if i'm wrong but if a understood correctly a ship using carronades will be able to fill entirely the gunnery and sailing departments, a ships using long canons will need 2 more crew assigned for each long canon , mediums using only 1 more crew per canon compared to carronades and the gunnery& sailing department will not be both at 100% right ? 

 

 

Always using long canons in combat ships but ended up in a fight using a captured trader snow having carronades and i had the sails and gunnery fully crewed yesterday, will test and compare later in the day with cannonades and mediums using a combat ship, now if this is true i would like to have the possibility to select how many canons i want in my ship and not simply having the option to lock or remove the entire canons from an entire deck, for example with my Surprise ( having crew space giving +5% crew and purple extra hammocks giving + 4% crew, giving me 261 crew instead of 240 ) i could use long canons costing more man power but choosing to not equip fully the lower deck and remove let's say 2 canons on each side, and keep only half the canons on the top deck, still using longs, this will allow me to compensate for the longs using more man power and even maybe allow me to use a basic or common Marines on the top of it wiht 10 or 20% of the total crew assigned 

 

 

So the ships current crew size and numbers assigned for gunnery and sailing is based on ships using carronades as default preset, shouldn't it be set on ships using medium canons instead ? I'm not sure of what was the real life most commonly used type of canons but i guess it was mediums, using carronades will give some "free" crew that will be then assigned to boarding with a 10% basic Marines upgrades for example and it will be somewhat logical for a ship more oriented in close combat using carronades and the short range they have, carronades equipped ship + a little of Marines will be the most efficient in terms of crew management for boarding purpose, it will also be the fastest ships as carronades have the smaller speed penalty due to canons weight compared to long having highest hit in speed penalty, the gap/balance in gunnery/sailing/speed between carronades and longs will be reduced, mediums becoming the default preset for a fully crewed sails and gunnery departments.

 

Still have to test my combat ship later in the day using mediums and carronades to see how the crew will fill those departments compared my usual longs, for now that's how i understand it, maybe i understood everything incorrectly tho.

 

 

 

- About Marines and AI ships, it seems all AI ships i boarded are using Marines, traders included, for what i saw it's maybe 20% of the crew, question is do they have any penalty like players have or are they still boosted and for them Marines adds up to the crew instead of removing them ? 

 

Also while we are not in boarding preparation can Marines at least help to fight against fires and this reducing the number of regular crew needed to help extinguish fires, i imagine that while they are not used to repair the ship or helping with sails or gunnery they could help a bit with fires instead of just being spectators looking at what is going on until a boarding is done and they can finally do something, i understand there is some changes coming soon with officers and crew recruitment too but could they at least help against fires ?

 

 

- One last question is about Muskets & Pistols , they add 10% more muskets to the ship for a mastercraft upgrade, muskets are just regular crew that once set to boarding take a rifle in hands right ?

How does this works exactly now in terms of assigned members of crew into boarding or crew penalty in other departments like sailing and gunnery, sorry if it's a dumb question but if i get 10% more muskets does this mean that 10% more crew will be assigned to boarding, this reducing my sailing crew by 10% also ? 

 

Thanks 

 

PS :

 

 

 

Current building production numbers are designed to provide a solo player the opportunity to gather all resources required for Santisima in 7 real life days (1 week). Some buildings only require 60 hours for a 3 day production storage some buildings require 750 hours (coal). So you always have some hours left to work materials. If you continue buying materials you will get it faster. 

 

Buildings solve one problem - they provide guaranteed resources without the need to trade and bid on contracts. 

All the talk - "buildings consume my precious labor hours" sound strange because they don't consume much but guarantee your suplly

A basic Santissima in live oak require 232 gold for the furnishings ( and 240 more for the craft notes )  , 1338 iron , 475 oak logs,  321 live oak logs, 504 Hemp, following the figures posted in the picture it will take 9 days to have enough iron, 13 days for the live oak, 5 days for the hemp, 12 days for the gold needed for a basic ship, 24 days to get the gold needed for one using 4 craft notes and solo players are limited to 4 production buildings, as one of the 5 will be a shipyard.

 

 Of course the goal is not to have a single player able to produce and build something entirely, especially not high class ships like a Santissima but still it takes a lot of production buildings/players and time to get materials available + crafting hours required even for a more common ship, a basic level building getting 250 coal per 24 hours will cost 125 labor hours to get them, 254 coal are needed for a basic frigate, 614 coal are needed for a frigate using 4 craft notes for example, add to this 246 silver needed for the craft notes and the furnishings, 10 days more of production for those and 246 labor hours just to get the silver out of the building, this is if the player plays and collect regularly and not miss a couple of days when the buildings reach the storage limit or it will be lost time producing nothing, maybe in this case the buildings could continue to produce but send productions directly into the NPC shops tho.

 

 

This is for basic level buildings, productions increase with higher level buildings but many players being afraid of loosing all invested money in the buildings if the city falls after an attack, i believe it will be the most common production buildings, and of course the big teams will be the biggest producers with a lot of fully upgraded buildings but those materials will never get on the markets.

 

 If at least it was possible to dismount and transfer a fully upgraded building from one city to another it will be worth investing a lot on upgrading them, a bit like it is possible to do with outposts permits remaining and the outpost building costing 10k to build and 5k to destroy it, here we could imagine that all production machines/manpower could be moved from one city to another without loosing all the money invested in upgrading the buildings, even if not all the money will be back getting a good part of it will be nice, in the long run many that started to produce a good of some sort will see that the market is saturated of it and will want to change the production to something else where there is more demand and profits to do, doing this they will loose all money invested in getting a lvl 3 production building if i understood correctly.

 

 

Still a lot of testing to be done and things to clear out before seeing more clear in all this for me.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Kanay

[Lennyo]

Can someone please address the drop in speed? Pre-patch my Renommee could hit 15.5 knots with No cannons loaded. After the patch it only hits 14.8 knots. With long guns loaded, it could hit 14.5 knots prepatch and 13.9 post patch. The whole point of the ship is to be able to dictate the fight using it's speed. A half knot+ drop in speed severely limits it's survivability. Last not I was not able to keep my distance from a surprise in a fight, whereas before I was able to do it with ease.

[Lennyo]

• Crucial bug with cannon influence on speeds fixed (some ships UI speed indicated previously did not take the cannon weight into account).

 

This seems to be the issue with the Speed, pre-patch the UI speed indicated a speed that could not be attained unless guns were unloaded. Post patch this is STILL the case with the Renommee, however the base speed has been decreased resulting in an overall decrease in speed all-around for the ship.

[pr0zac]

Great job guys. It would be nice if we would able to stop crew transfer from position to position when all crew positions are off (grey) . This would allow us to determine the exact number of crew on position we want to.