William Death

Exact same thing for me.

Yeah the ship is "still going" till it decelerates "naturally" (negative wind force or the natural deceleration due to drag) if that makes sense. Its like when you run aground at full sails, instantly drop to zero, then break free and instantly (nearly) go back to close to full speed. It'd be nice to see it get fixed sometime, but its been like that for a long long time now.

One issue, still not addressed as an issue by some, is the fact that Xebec gets +30% bonus and no negative for using Elite Pirate Rig. You cannot compare that to any square rigged ship with Elite Spanish Rig +30% downwind -30% upwind. Privateer, Lynx, Prince, etc...all upwind ships, sure. But they have some negatives applied for using pirate rig refits (these ships all have square sails [very few, in some cases, but present nonetheless]). Xebec gets no negatives applied when using that module. You cannot compare these ships+mods either. To put it plainly: 14kn+ Bellonas and Ingermanlands are not a problem when they have such negatives applied that literally _any decent_ (read: not slow & tanky build ex. LO/WO or WO/WO) 6th/5th/4th/3rd rate can outrun them at multiple angles upwind, or match them downwind (Indefatigable+Elite Spanish = faster at all angles than Bellona+Elite Spanish). 14kn+ Xebec is a problem when it gets bonuses applied to all angles by using the equivalent mod as the Bellona/Inger in the example above. Hopefully the apples-to-bananas comparison that people make is shown here. You can't have a ship that gets 100% bonus from a mod while all other ships using the same mod (or the equivalent downwind Spanish rig mod) get a negative applied along with their bonus. I'll agree with nerfing the sail force modules a little, but you don't need to nerf them so much that they become useless (regular Spanish Rig is nearly useless already). But that won't fix the Xebec + Pirate Rig problem. There are only two fixes for that: remove ability to equip that module on Xebec (easy and functional fix), or find a way to code the module so that it will provide downwind negatives when equipped on Xebec (probably more difficult to code, but ultimately a better fix). I say that nerfing the sail force modules won't fix the issue, because you'll still have one ship getting 100% bonus from a mod while all other ships using the same mod, receive a negative along with their bonus. See above. Nerfing the mods without fixing Requin + Pirate Rig doesn't fix the issue, it simply makes the problem worse by further hurting other ships yet still keeping Xebec at 100% bonus for using that mod. And no matter how much you nerf it, even down to +5% bonus, the Requin will still get 100% of that 5%, whereas all other ships will get 50% of that 5%. Broken. While we're on the topic of removing ability to equip certain modules, it'd be nice to see light ship hammocks ability to mount on Xebec removed. I redeemed one almost every day till I got a Teak/Crewspace/Very Cramped, and a Live Oak/Crewspace/Very Cramped. Both of those ships with full crew stacks carry 387 crew, IIRC. More than any other 5th rate base. Simply dumb. But I'm sure someone will be along very soon to defend the crew count of Requin as well. I'll just be happy when the Requin and Hercules get *just* enough nerfs that the standard 5th rates become viable for solo PvP again.

^^^^ This exactly. I "mast snipe" (what a silly name for it) to demast, but even if the accuracy was nerfed to the point where "sniping" became useless (and if you nerf to that point you've already lost the ability to hit the side of a first rate at 500m), I could simply use full broadside demasting tactics and roll the entire broadside into the masts. An excellent first rate vs first rate rolling broadside to masts yields 15-30 penetrating hits. An average broadside is fewer hits, sure...maybe 12-15 as Vazco says but that simply means you need a few more rakes to accomplish the demasting. I certainly like the idea that when a mast is gone, its gone, but there will be so much whining and complaining from noobs who will refuse to run mast mods. Its simply not worth it. Leave mast repair as it is, average players don't have the forethought to plan repairs out so they end up losing a mast with an 8-10 minute timer before the next repair and its usually GG. I'd suggest the following repair changes: 1x hull rep, 1x rig rep. No crew repair. Re-implement built in repairs: every ship can carry 10x kits that you simply fill up in port. They are weightless and available in any port in unlimited supply. Additional hull and rig repairs can be carried in the hold to extend the amount of time one can cruise. It was silly, IMO, to move away from that old repair system when there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. I doubt I'm alone when I say that 2016 duels (and any other kind of engagement) were more skill-based and more enjoyable (not to mention "realistic") than the current mod-meta & repair every 12 minutes crap that we have now.

How to fireship: https://i.imgur.com/IwlEara.gifv

Hey don't worry, you too will one day be as pro as I am. Able to quickly sail in, punch hard & steal the kill, then kite away, letting you guys sit back and soak up damage or fall victim to the counter gank. Its already rubbed off on @Christendom, because in a battle the other day I saw him run alongside a Bellona, hit it with double then flip around real quick for that second hit. Would have worked too if I hadn't already gotten 2 doubles into him Joking aside, I think awarding PvP marks to the losing side, based on the damage they did, would be good for the game. It would encourage the enemy to fight back more, always a good thing. Furthermore, scaling the PvP marks awarded to both sides by BR advantage/disadvantage would be good. Imagine this: 5x speed Bellonas tag a lone player in a Victory. The Victory is dead--no question. But if the Victory fights hard and does significant damage to those Bellonas, he'll be rewarded. And with that kind of BR disadvantage, his PvP mark reward for the battle could even be higher than the Bellona squad (fighting a lower BR = less marks for them).

@admin I don't like the idea of paid Teleport between Outposts. Remember back when it was on a cooldown (4-5 hours, IIRC)? Back then, I was a newly-minted US Commodore without a lot of gold, no alts to help me, and in a smallish clan--I was the typical US noob, standard variety. Here was the typical evening of playtime: *log into Teamspeak and talk to the clan while I run a mission or two* "Pirates pulled a flag for Nassau, TP to Shroud Cay GO GO GO!" *TP to Shroud and sail to PB* *Flag planted but it was a fake group, only 2 players* *real flag pulled for a port in the gulf* No time to sail over there, can't teleport for 3 more hours, players with outposts there can defend it, but theres nothing I can do. Just like that, I'm excluded from contributing to the RvR content in a meaningful way that night. I'm not a target to be sunk in a PB, nor am I a ship sailing in OW to a PB. I'm a disgruntled captain, either sitting in port waiting for something interesting to happen near me, or using a basic cutter (or cheap shop ship) to speed me back to someplace I can PvE out of. Here it is in the current setting of the game if you implement costly TPs: Tumbado Patrol is up. Player logs into Naval Action for an evening of ship combat. He wants to go to the patrol zone, but he doesn't want to pay the high cost (expensive by his standards) of a 2 way towing trip to Tumbado to go PvP and then go back to where he was before. Instead, he either has to sail to the zone (could be 20 minutes or a 2hr+ sail away) or else he forfeits that PvP opportunity for the day. Fewer players accessing the zones = less PvP in the zones. (hopefully you fix the ROE for them soon so that people will want to use them?) Therein is the issue: if you make the TP cost enough so that its not a meaningless click (very very cheap cost), then that will probably be a high enough value that the more casual/average player will say "screw it, I'm not spending gold to TP to _______ to _______ (RvR, PvP, PvE, etc.)." So instead, that player is forced to sail somewhere in a basic cutter or similar (he won't sail a good ship if he already has ships in the OP he wants to go to). Great, you've put more players in OW! More targets! Unfortunately they're in ships that are worthless to sink (or nearly worthless in the case of lynx, privateer, etc.). I think making the TP cost gold will ultimately be a very bad thing. PvP will suffer, RvR will suffer, and more will quit. The only players that won't be affected are those of us who have the millions and millions of gold, or enough alts that we can pop up wherever we want, set whatever contracts we want, or hunt almost any corner of the map with the press of a button.

Well Elite Pirate Rig refit isn't an issue on Prince, Lynx, Privateer, Cutter, Niagara, Surprise.... because realistic negatives apply to those ships when using it to sail downwind. The opposite happens to Le Requin: use Elite Pirate Rig to make your sailing profile better at nearly all angles. Granted, the sail force mods are a bit strong overall and should be balanced better, but it can't be ignored that one ship has pure benefits from running an Elite Pirate Rig and pretty much no negatives. So...no. That is both a Requin issue, and a mod issue. But the main issue in this case is the way the Requin behaves with those mods installed. Either fix the mod so that there are negatives applied to Requin when using pirate rig downwind, or remove the ability to equip that mod on that ship.

AHA! Yes that was indeed where I read it. Great series, I'm about halfway through, but I've been lazily reading out of order (*gasp*) over the past few years. I also agree, given the research he did, I think its pretty accurate as a source. I mean, logically, it makes sense: use some chain to prevent your yards from falling, even if they shatter. I doubt you'd get much power from a sail held up only by chains and splintered wood, but at least it wouldn't be blocking your guns or decks and may even still give a little sailing power. But I'm not sure if that would be possible to do with the Xebec's long yard and short mast...maybe though. Sailors are a creative lot.

I didn't suggest creating a special mechanic as the only solution. Again, read it. I said "Give Requin weak yards (they have hitboxes just like topmasts and topgallant masts) that can be shot away, reducing sail area for that mast. Or make the sails extra vulnerable to both ball and chainshot damage to simulate a yard being damaged or partially broken." You and I both know that the dev team has more important things to do right now than go through all the ships in NA, give all yards hitboxes, and create a graphics model for the way each yard falls. Ever notice how each ship's masts fall differently? Different graphical demasting models for each ship. I'm no coder, but I can't imagine that is anything quick or simple to do, especially when some ships have over 12 yards each multiplied by X ships (we're up to...what...40-50 ships now?)...yeah. I doubt that'll be put in the game anytime soon. Be nice if it was though. So, as a work-around: weaker sails for the Xebec to represent the weaker yards. You don't need that on a square rigged ship because losing a yard there was not as devastating as losing one on a lateen rigged ship. A square rigger cannot make the same speed in reverse as it does in forward. Bow at 0° in relation to the wind, sails fully backing, depowered, powered, dancing on the capstand...best I've gotten on a square rigger was like -6-7kn and not usually that much. That is on a ship that does 12+ straight downwind when going forward. Your comparison doesn't hold water (or wind, as it were).

Admin asked what the differences/advantages/disadvantages were between Lateen Rig and Square Rig and why some Lateen Rigged ships also carried Square Rigs. I tried to answer that with what I know and gave suggestions for how to implement it in game. I doubt the dev team can dedicate the time to making new hitboxes and graphics for broken yards on all ships, or even on Xebec. But making the sails weaker in place of breakable yards is a close approximation of the same thing, and only involves changing 1 stat. Read the post again. Breaking a yard in a Xebec is far more disastrous than breaking one on a frigate. You lose almost 1/3 of your power when a Xebec has a disabled sail. You lose maybe 1/8 or less of your power when you lose a sail on a frigate. *Watches @z4ys get all defensive of his beloved Requin* I dislike the silly thing, just as I dislike Prince, Rattlesnake, Snow, NavyBrig, Lynx, and all the other little shallow bumper boats. But I recognize that some people do like those ships. Doesn't bother me, so long as the ships are balanced. They are simply not, right now. Xebec is too strong for the BR it has. It is too powerful when paired with certain upgrades (upgrades that don't necessarily make any other ship overpowered in the same way). I simply want the old NA back. The one where a 6th rate with a handful of upgrades can't catch and beat almost any average 5th rate in battle. Requin can have a place in that NA, but it can't be the ship it is right now. Nerf it to balance, not to uselessness. There is a difference.

@admin My understanding of square sails vs lateen sails and their drawbacks is this: (limited research, mostly picked up from here-and-there reading and a very little bit of experience sailing small lug rigged [similar to a lateen in some ways] dinghy) Lateen Sails vs Square Sails the good: Lateens have good performance at most wind angles, especially upwind when compared to square rigged ships Lateens are comparatively easier to operate, since there are fewer lines needing adjusting when changing course or tacking. (compared to square rigged ships with 4+ sails per mast and each sail needing multiple ropes adjusted to maneuver. Dropping sails in an emergency is a breeze, compared to square rigged ships. Lateen Sails vs Square Sails the bad: Lateen sails suffer from a "bad tack" when the mast interrupts the foil shape. This could be corrected by "dipping" the sail though (putting it to the proper side of the mast), but that would require more time to complete and the sail would need to be luffing while dipping the yard. Very large sail area + most of that area is far from the centerline of the mast + only 1sail per mast makes jibing (gybing) in strong winds more dangerous, especially if its an unexpected jibe. Think about the sail suddenly changing sides when sailing nearly straight downwind. Potential to snap a yard in such a maneuver. Snapping a lateen yard pretty much disables that sail. Also, despite fewer control lines to adjust, the large sail area needs manpower to handle (fortunately Xebecs have plenty) A single, large sail on a mast can be more challenging to reef. The COE (center of effort) needs to not move too much when reefed or the ship won't handle as well. Notice that most of the negatives of lateens are related to the fact that you typically only get 1 sail per mast: Think about losing the power from that 1 big sail and how that would affect your ship, especially in combat. One weak spot or a hidden knot in the wooden yard and it shatters while wearing ship, dousing the deck with a huge piece of heavy, flammable canvas and hundreds of yards of rope (my understanding is that in square rigged ships, the yards could be chained before battle, preventing the sails from falling to the deck even if the yard shatters; I don't think this would be practical with a lateen rig, but I may be wrong there...wish I could remember where I read that and if it was a reliable source...). Despite the negatives, lateen sails do out perform square sails. They allow the ship to sail closer to the wind and at greater speeds than square sails. But for a ship that intends to sail into combat, they may perhaps have some notable disadvantages. Is there any way to introduce some of these things referenced in the points? Give Requin weak yards (they have hitboxes just like topmasts and topgallant masts) that can be shot away, reducing sail area for that mast. Or make the sails extra vulnerable to both ball and chainshot damage to simulate a yard being damaged or partially broken. Perhaps that would help balance out the ship a bit. Lots of crew and good guns but the rigging is the Achilles Heel so to speak. Perhaps, as a sailing profile balancing option, you could make the schooners have best performance close hauled (30°-75°), Xebec and the "upwind" 5th-6th rates have their best performance around beam reach (60°-115°) [notice that they are not excluded from upwind performance either, 60° is still close hauled], and downwind ships, of course, rule the downwind angles. Wouldn't this achieve a better balance of sailing profiles? Give reasons to sail the little schooners again. Reasons to use square rigged ships that don't involve Elite Spanish Rig... I see several, if not all of these points were already mentioned, but I thought I'd throw in the little bit I know about the subject too.

No. I agree, it is probably "historically" right, but it won't balance in the game, as others have pointed out. Best boarding defense mod: don't get boarded! Sail your ship well and players will have a VERY hard time getting you in boarding. Understand how much sail force your ship has and how much manual sailing to apply to keep them from pushing you into the wind. I once fought a Surprise + Snow in my Endymion. Normally not a particularly challenging fight ordinarily, but these two players were quite good at the sterncamping game and this was before Endy got a turn rate and sailing profile buff. Determined Defender was not in the game at that time. They quickly raked 150+ crew off my ship. Chained to 70% sails, but every time one of them got in place to pit me upwind, I had a load of double shot and carronades waiting. Eventually the Surprise limped away to repair. I was able to demast the snow in a single broadside and then nearly sink him the next broadside. His ship exploded and the Surprise was able to escape upwind. A very tricky engagement; had I played it like a noob, firing every time a broadside was pointed at the enemy, I probably would have lost, but by carefully waiting to get the perfect shot in, the enemy had no chance to pit me into the wind without having his side melted to nothing in the process. And no way was I going to tack into the wind for them Another thing, run a boarding mod or two, or some marines. I often run either Marines 15 or Book of Five rings, sometimes both and other mods too, if I'm going for a boarding rig. Of course, determined defender is standard for me. Should I get boarded, or board somebody, and they see I have marines, they'll likely think I'm full board fit and either try to disengage or inform any friends in their fleet. Sure, you sacrifice some crew from cannons for marines, but I don't understand why people think crew count is even important, especially on larger ships. And now, with rum repairs...well you'd best figure on raking him twice before trying to board. Manage your broadsides, fire only the cannons that will do work at that range/angle, and sail carefully to prevent getting into a slugging match with a ship that can reload faster than you. I couldn't tell you how many successful duels or PBs I've been in where my first rate ended the battle with ~400-500 crew. Because, ultimately, while you're losing all that crew, you are hopefully getting some damage done to the enemy too: you may have no crew, but if he has no HP left, or no masts left....I'd say you got the better bargain.

Well even before the Le Broken came about...you could live quite happily hunting alone at a capital. You're biggest limits were how long you felt like sitting in the chair and how many repairs you looted. When the revenge fleet comes out, simply disappear over the horizon and pop up somewhere else a few minutes later. Keep them constantly moving about. Eventually the capital will "reset" and the targets will come back out to do their missions, tag AIs, and make their trade runs. Hit a couple targets and disappear again. Hit and run PvP at its finest. Loads of fun for the attacker, not so much for the people trying to counter it. But such is the way its always been in NA OW PvP. I like it that way, raiders gain a reputation over time and people start to build squadrons with the right ships to run them down. I sailed Endymion before it was cool. Remember the old Endymion? Back when it was fast at one point downwind and had a narrow escape window upwind too, but was mediocre at all other points. I had a Teak/WO one with copper plating, bovenwinds, and gazelle (gazelle used to be good); I had it for over 7 months and used it extensively to solo hunt the East Coast, KPR, and the occasional cruise through the Lesser Antilles. During that time, it received the buff to upwind sailing ability and became mainstream. I was never caught by anything I couldn't sink. The key is, as always, to carefully choose your targets, run early if you have a bad feeling about the battle, position yourself during OW tags to face the right direction and time your battles to ensure you have a good escape wind. Understand how to counter tag and manipulate join circles to benefit you. Furthermore, it was important to notice just who was assembling in the revenge fleet: a bunch of random players in their PvE grinding boats are going to be easy to outrun, but if I see some decently competent clans amassing fast chase ships, I know to skedaddle sooner. Its always that "just one more kill" that is the one that leads to you sinking. So how did I lose that Endymion? I wasn't caught, I just did something stupid. I took a 3v1 that I shouldn't have taken. I still won, but my beloved Endymion sank while I was boarding an Indefatigable. But I was able to continue hunting on that captured Indefatigable and won a 2v1 that netted me a nearly identical Endymion. Had I chosen to run when I had the chance to (I should have), I would likely still have my old Endymion. Granted, it'd be less useful now since it was only a 3/5 and I prefer 4/5 or better, but there's something sentimental about the pixels I guess At least the Endy I replaced it with is still floating, patiently awaiting the Le Broken and Hercudumb to be nerfed. There have been some interesting comments about fifth rates in this thread. For some inexplicable reason, all frigates were given essentially the same sailing profile, so there is now little reason to sail something other than Endy or Trinc unless you specifically want better turn rate or a little higher base speed. I mean, why choose a lighter broadside when you could have nearly the same performance and a tougher and more powerful ship? RIP the days of Surprise and Santa Cecilia being the upwind queens while the heavier frigates like Trinc and Endy excelled at broad reach but were a bit more sluggish upwind. Take a look at this chart, the differences between the frigates are mostly caused by the differences in base speeds, not by sailing profile. This is bad because a fir/fir Trinc or Endy can be as fast as a teak/teak Surprise and still have more hull HP, hull thickness, sail HP, mast thickness, and more firepower. So you go fir/fir on the Surprise to outrun those heavy fir frigates and then the speed cap becomes an issue....basically, then, your only hope is to outrun them in OW where your *slight* advantage in sailing profile shows more prominently. Ultimately though, between mod stacking and little variance in sailing profiles, smaller frigates have a hard time competing with their larger cousins. Granted, there are a few frigates with profiles that stand out as different from the "standard," but I feel a greater variance would see a more diverse spread of frigates in the OW. Of course, with the Hercules and Le Requien in their current states, using a frigate at all is silly unless you just like frigates more than shallow boats (I strongly dislike shallow boats for a number of reasons, none of which are particularly relevant here though). I guess frigates still have somewhat of a role "supporting" 4th-1st rates...but honestly, I'd rather have my "support" be another 3rd rate and not some frigate that can take one or two good hits before having to run off. Poor, poor 5th rates, getting pushed to niche usefulness by a couple DLC bumper boats. Its been said before in this thread, but here it is again: Solutions: No pirate rig refits on Requien. Bump up to 5th rate to remove the ability to use light ship hammocks and powerful 6th rate books. It can be a glass cannon that escapes everything upwind and boards anything it can catch. But square riggers can outrun it downwind easily and it melts when you land hits. Hercules gets a mast nerf and more nerfs to hull HP and thickness (don't nerf to oblivion though). Choose a sailing profile for Hercules. It can be a decent upwind performer but slower downwind; or decent at downwind and slower upwind, but not both. NO DLC SHIPS IN PBs. EVER! Adjust sailing profiles of 5th rates to make them more diverse in their uses. Buff the toothpick masts on Surprise and other smaller frigates: I'm a demaster, I enjoy removing the masts from ships, but dangit a frigate's masts shouldn't fall that easily and from that far away! Endy and Trinc feel like they have appropriate masts for their size. Surprise feels like you have masts from the rookie brig.

Yeah, even with the proposed suggestion, I'd still likely sink everything I run across. 3/5 ships are worthless to me. They have become disposable and casual use ships (but they're seeing a lot of use lately, what with the le broken and hercudumb still being OP). If I capture something, unless its 4/5 or better, or has some super good module installed, I sink it. Not worth my time to sail it back. Not to keep the ship (I can press a button a few times and have a fleet of ships just like it, plus the chance of getting a good ship (4/5 or better). Not for 1.5x PvP marks, and not for 2x PvP marks. There is too great a risk of it getting sunk/need to scuttle it to outrun the counter gank. A bird in the hand, as they say... "Back in the day" we didn't have PvP marks. You PvP'd for the sake of PvP: for the thrill of the chase. I still treat it that way. At the end of the day, I don't care how many or how few ships I sank, or what I earned, as long as I got some good action and sailed away safely, I'm happy. I've gotten enough marks to buy the two useful PvP books and keep a constant supply of the 2-3 good PvP modules. Occasionally redeem a Wasa or L'Hermione... That being said, marks are still worth more to me as numbers in the rewards chest than the prospect of keeping a 3/5 ship, even with the risky option of sailing it home and selling it to the Admiralty later for more marks. Perhaps others would like and use the feature more than I would though...

I endeavor to always fight on my own terms. I strive sink as little as possible, but when I must, I intend to do so on my own terms. You had 2 other tags where I was in battle and could have been sunk. Furthermore, you could have sunk me before Wraith did if you were faster. Anyways, I wanted it done that way, not necessarily to deny you marks, but more to try to salvage one of my good modules and end the fight on my terms. Strangely, no modules dropped off the ship when Wraith looted it (and all 3 boxes were equipped with mods so...I don't know why nothing dropped). But Wraith did leave the repairs that were in the hold...you could have had some fancy Pirate repairs. Granted we use driftwood for hull repairs and toothpicks for replacement masts If I remember correctly, this has come up before in several cases in varying forms: Green-on-green to scuttle a ship: Fine as long as both players agree. (from the pinned rules regarding green-on-green): From another thread: I feel these two posts basically sum up the raw mechanics of what happened: you tagged, we used consensual green-on-green combat to attempt to deny resources (upgrades) to you. You had multiple chances before this, and even in the same battle, to sink me/us and claim the spoils for yourself. Not our fault that your ships were too slow to catch and damage me enough before I surrendered. I don't see an exploit here, just someone upset they couldn't sink me before I arranged it myself. Developers will have the final word, lets see what they have to say.

This may have been done before, but here it is anyways.

Sounds good, and could replace my suggestion for diminishing returns, but I think we still need wider availability of books and mods, not just RNG or relying on player-driven economy to supply the good stuff. Also, like other things "under construction" in NA, it is: Coming Soon™

If we want the average guys to go out and PvP (I assume we do) ships and mods shouldn't be prohibitively expensive for them to do so. "Reduce cost of mods by making them more available put up cost of materials to build a ship" I suggested nothing of the sort. Don't touch the cost of ships. Simply give people more than two ways (RNG or mass quantities of gold) to get the best books and mods. Actually making them available with PvP or Combat Marks caters more to the casual player, since he won't have to play all day to afford these things. He can go out, spend some CM or PvP marks and have the best mods available. Took him a few hours of hunting to get the PvP marks to buy a Cartagena Caulking refit and an Elite French Rig. The people who are skilled and play all day probably already have the mods and books, or enough PvP marks to buy them. I think you missed the part about the combat marks taking "enormous amounts." I'm with you, I don't want to see a version of NA where the PvE crowd can hit two AI frigates and go buy Elite Spanish Rig. Lets throw some arbitrary numbers around: if that Elite Spanish Rig costs maybe, 15-30 PvP Marks, vs 250-350 Combat Marks.... wouldn't that be some incentive to go PvP instead of PvE? Again, I just threw out some random numbers, but hopefully that conveys the idea. I really don't think the devs have the balance of mod availability just right. I've got 2-3 of every type of good elite mod laying around, waiting to be used. RNG, gold, and PvP marks ensure that I keep a good supply. These good mods ensure that I'll almost never be caught by an average player. Never be demasted by an average player. Never be in trouble of having an average player land shots on my ship that actually do damage that I can't run away from. Back when we had fewer mods of each type, and wider availability, the playing field was much closer to even. I can see how you would maybe misconstrue this. But thats not what I want. Each ship should have a place in the game. I don't want the ships to all be equal. They shouldn't all perform the same: some need to be upwind boats, some for downwind, some for brawling and some for running away. I just want the availability of modules and books to be equal, instead of heavily slanted in favor of the "hardcore" crowd. If you enjoyed the wait and haggling and all that, good for you, but most players I've seen chatting about it are the complete opposite. Constantly complaining that the elite PvPers have the good stuff and they barely have access to it. So let the roleplaying crowd earn their money, stroll through the merchant's shops, hunting for a bargain on their Book of the Void. Meanwhile the rest of the population will happily go to PvP for marks, or unload vast amounts of CMs to get their mods and go PvP some more. Here are the main negatives of the speed cap, given in example form: My Fir/Fir Ingermanland does 15.5kn. My Teak/Teak Ingermanland is also capable of those speeds. I have no reason to sail a speed modded Renommee when L'Hermione has a better profile, bigger guns, and can also reach the same 15.5kn speed, but be faster upwind. As you can see, the speed cap makes certain ships nearly useless. Renommee without the speed cap could escape almost anything downwind when equipped with Elite Spanish Rig. But then you have her hitting insane speeds of 17-18-19kn and that, I assume, is what you're worried about. Solution: Perhaps you think about the implications of the other points in my suggestion before writing that. There will be a "speed cap" of sorts with my proposed system: it'll be the fastest ship (Renommee, for the fastest frigate) + all the speed mods that can be equipped (remember diminishing returns apply). And I bet that speed won't be much above 15.5kn When upgrades are properly balanced, with diminishing returns applied, super stacking won't see much benefit: a Copper + Navy Hull + Bovenwinds + Art of Shiphandling + Speed Trim Trincomalee won't be much faster than a Trinco with Copper + Navy Hull + Art of Shiphandling, but the first ship will experience all of the negatives associated with those speed mods. Yes, the ships I mentioned (as examples) are 5th and 4th rates (besides Bellona). But the operative words are "'average' 5th and 4th rates" vs "speed-fit" 4th and 5th rates. Right now, you shouldn't take a ship out to go solo PvP unless you're 13kn+, and you'll need some of those super mods to get to that speed unless you plan on sailing fir/fir. The goal of implementing the diminishing returns for stacking mods of the same type is to narrow the gap between what the average player sails, and what the "elite PvPers" sail (super modded ships). There will still be room for--and a purpose for--ships with stacked upgrades, but they won't be as common as they are now. A fight between two comparable ships (Agamemnon vs Ingermanland, for example) should hinge mainly on player skill (not ignoring the fact that proper outfitting [modding] of the ship is a skill), not on who has access to the best mods and books. 100% agree that the two broken DLC ships have nearly ruined PvP. I won't sail my fancy 4/5s or 5/5 ships right now, or at least rarely do so. I sail basic 3/5 with some cheap (to me) mods and just leave the area if the le broken and hercudumbs come out in force. Or I get sunk by them and lament the road NA has gone down as I click the button on a new ship. But what I've seen, and others I've spoken with agree, is that people who have the DLC enjoy the low-risk aspect that it brings their PvP. They lose a ship? No worries, new one tomorrow! Just have to buy some guns a cheap mod or two for it. Imagine how many 5th and 4th rates we'd see roaming around if all a player had to do to get a good one is craft it (or buy one at a freeport, prices are becoming competitive) and throw a few PvP marks at the shop to get the good mods for it.

I've suggested this several times in other threads before, but it was recently suggested to me to make a topic for it. Wall of text incoming. If you're intent on skipping it, skip to the bold part for the mechanics suggestion. I personally liked our old system of craftable upgrades better. You know the one, the old grey/green/blue/purple/gold system where you could craft most modules and upgrades using mid grade notes and some materials. But there were some very powerful, very rare modules (gold marines, carpenters, light carriages, etc.) that made that system no good. I understand the devs have worked hard on our current skillbook and permanent module system, and introduced new modules (however much I disagree with the need for them) so we probably won't return to that old system...so I'll propose a compromise in this topic. Now after the big wipe, I was under the impression that we were trying to move away from a mod-dependent system. Instead modules and books are now more valuable and more important than ever. And the worst part is, the common ones are mostly garbage! Nobody who is competitive uses Gazelle for +1% speed, when Bovenwinds, Navy Hull (granted that ones not super difficult to get) and Copper Plating all offer significantly better performance. And why use Optimized Ballast when there is Art of Shiphandling? The list of crap mod vs good mod goes on. Players who have played long enough, or are active enough, or are "good" enough will likely have access to these super rare modules. Heck I've got a full set on my main and almost a full set on one alt, and I'm well on my way to a decent set on a 3rd alt. But the casuals can't easily get them. This further widens the gap between 2000+ hours "I am pro--I sink players [noobs] 5 vs 1" and Mr. Casual over there who is playing an hour or two a week. I'm 100% for high quality rewards for players who are active, skilled, and get out there and get the kills, but those same rewards should also be available (at a very high cost, and via RNG) to those who maybe aren't so skilled. But when the ship you are sailing costs less than 1Mil to make and the modules you need on it to make it relevant in PvP cost over 2Mil, something is wrong. Here is a quote from this post by admin regarding future goals in NA http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/19703-forthcoming-changes-in-the-next-testbed-patch/ I took the liberty of emphasizing the important part. Granted that post is old, but I don't think the goal has changed? It shouldn't have changed. We should always strive to put people into the OW where they can willingly PvP without fear of losing a super-expensive ship. It has gotten to the point in the game now, that you pretty much need those good modules and books to be relevant in PvP. (I know someone is going to come along and say "I've gotten X amount of kills with a storebought ship and medium cannons. Hurr durr your point is irrelevant the system is fine!" blah blah blah.) Sure, you can get by without them, but you'll sink a lot, and most players get discouraged when their best 5th rate gets run down and wrecked by a 4th or 3rd rate because that big ship was running mods and books that they'll (seemingly) never have access to. Important note: I am NOT against speed-fitted 4th and 3rd rates. They are lovely ships and can easily find a balance in NA. Read on to see how. So here's the suggestion: (credit where credit is due, I'm sure I'm the first to suggest this stuff) Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps. Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance). Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now. Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously). Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules and books of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. If you have mods that give different amounts, the highest amount will apply first, then the stacked values will diminish in order of greatest to least. This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens, etc. (as they should), but the difference in speed between a failfit speedboat and a teak/wo "jack of all trades build" with one or two speed upgrades will be much less than it is now. Furthermore, the increased availability of books and modules means that everyone can be on a more-or-less equal playing field. There won't be room for people to say "I don't wanna go out and PvP because I don't have the right mods and I'll just get sunk," or "You only beat me because you have elite mods that I don't have." There will still be plenty more to balance regarding the bonuses we can choose for our ships (looking at you, useless wood types and pointless modules that nobody uses). But I think that if the broken DLC boats have taught us anything, its that high availability and low operating cost does increase PvP. I see some people going out to hunt and forming up in the coastguards who before wouldn't willingly PvP. But now that they have a ship that can be replaced easily and doesn't *require* expensive modules to function (pirate rig refit is cheap enough), they go out and fight. Thats good. Those ships still need balancing though, but thats well covered in other threads. TL/DR: Good mods are more valuable than standard 3/5 ships and that discourages casuals from PvP. Make the good modules and books more available and maybe we'll start seeing people leave port and sail out of the safezones. Introduce diminishing returns to discourage stacking that leads to outrageous bonuses. Thoughts? Is it a good idea, or crazy?

Short answer: No. Slight correction to your (mostly valid) point about SOLs being a rare sight IRL: Third rates cruised sometimes with a small fleet (perhaps even alone, on occasion, IIRC). They made excellent frigate hunters. They were the big workhorses of the navies. Strong enough to withstand line battles, fast enough to cruise for the enemy. Big enough to deter smaller ships from attacking. Small enough to be outfitted and sailed regularly without enormous operating costs. Reasoning: Anything that further limits what ships people can and can't sail is bad. More players will quit. Your rank is the Admiralty's evaluation of your ability to command one of their prized SOLs. Sometimes the Admiralty misjudges a Captain's ability (as evidenced by the amount of times you see noob Rear Admirals losing first and second rates to solo 3rd 4th and 5th rates). Remember fine woods and that super successful attempt to limit the use of big ships? Yeah, it worked: population plummeted and so did the amount of PvP happening. People were too afraid to leave the dock when a standard LO/Build Strength Victory cost 5-8 mil without upgrades. People didn't start using those ships again till they had 2-3 replacements sitting in docks, waiting to be used, or a clan that could provide that. Lets not try anything even remotely similar to that again. Driving away nearly half the playerbase isn't something we want to do again. Just because some people want to see 4th-7th rates dominate PvP, doesn't mean that everyone does. There are those (I have at least one foot in this camp) who only want to sail the big ships for RvR, PvP, and PvE. Making it overly difficult or nearly impossible for them to get those ships will cause them to quit. Can we afford to lose players who provide content (even if its not the content you like) when the game already has so few? A better idea: Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps. Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance). Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now. Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously). Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens, etc. (as they should), but the difference in speed between a failfit speedboat and a teak/wo "jack of all trades build" with one or two speed upgrades will be much less than it is now. Back to your suggestion: Once more...no. It sounds good to read, but it just doesn't work in NA. We tried something similar already, it didn't work. Players like their big ships. Its a game; we have to draw the line between historical simulator and fun game play. Futhermore, what you propose is basically a lobby-based PB system...which I don't think we'll see. It would be nice, to an extent, but there is no fair way to decide who gets to be in what ship. Lets face it: whatever random player that sinks the most AI while raising hostility is probably not the guy you want in one your two first rates in the PB. Heck, you may want the PB fleet to include players who weren't even there to grind the port. What if another clan has one or two players go do missions and that screws up your clan's fleet composition because they individually got more damage points than those in your group? Too many mechanics to work out. Too many people to get their feelings hurt. Too many cries in the battle results thread: "'So-and-so' wasn't supposed to get .3k more damage than me! I was supposed to be awarded the first rate! That guy is a PvE noob who doesn't understand how to sail and we'd have won if we had the right players in those ships!" But first, lets worry about the two DLC bumper boats that have been ruining OW PvP (and RvR) for the past month. A patch has been deployed to make them (and other shallow boats) more balanced. Lets see if it works. Go from there. Mods still need nerfing. The best system, even as broken as it was, was the old blue/purple/gold craftable mod system. At least then there were only a few of each type of mod. Too bad that probably won't come back.

Ok, again, I didn't win. You didn't win. Where is the disagreement? The duel didn't come to a conclusion. Again I say, I think I would have won at the point we called it a draw (because you had connection issues). You think you still would have won. You may have. I may have. We'll never know. Regarding wind and dictating the fight. Recall that I did take the wind from you at least once. I couldn't keep it (slow ship and all that). But I didn't need it either. My "meta tank mods" were what I was relying on to give me an edge against your faster lighter "I'll steal your wind and dictate the fight" build. And it worked: superior HP and thickness allowed me to bounce more, and tank more when I couldn't bounce. I'm happy with that build. You don't like it, I get it. It doesn't fit your playstyle. But it works for me. You've got your own "meta mods" just as I've got mine. Don't say I didn't have my ship under control, I most certainly did. It did exactly what I wanted it to do in that fight. Neither of us got "stuck in irons," don't misinterpret what I wrote. I said I pushed you upwind, which I did. And you reversed out of it. Lovely. Proper manual sailing there. Good job. My slower, tankier ship requires me to reverse almost every time I started a tack after you chained me. All good. Proper manual sailing. I should sincerely hope that neither one of us here is a noob that can't manual sail. I loused up a tack once (changed my mind halfway through), but it worked out for the better anyways since I got another broadside into you. Refused to do a redo? I said in my first reply to your post I'll do a redo of that duel sometime. And I'd also like a first rate duel with you. But you messaged me on Steam, asked me if I wanted to duel, I said no I couldn't do it right then, I was busy. That doesn't equal refusing to duel you. Just that I couldn't do the duel right then. Sorry that a redo of a duel with you is not more important to me than pre-planned activities with my clan. Don't worry though, I log into NA quite often, I'm sure at some point we'll both be on at the same time and be able to duel. Yes I did ask you to let my 4/5 Endy go, and you did. For that I am grateful. I've got the screenshot of that too. I "bragged" about that to Christendom (and everyone else in our discord) too. I said something like "Here, look, I fought Hachi and lost, gonna have to make a dueling build for a proper duel with him sometime: keep an eye out for 4/5 or 5/5 teak/wo Trincs please." I screenshot almost every battle that is even close to being an even fight, out of habit. Whether I win or lose, its important to have a record of it. Here you go, I'm not hiding from it. I feel no shame losing this fight (failfit speed Endy vs a proper Trinc). And no, I'm not telling anyone you ran away or anything like that. I just stayed in battle to let my repair finish and thats when I remembered to grab a screenshot. You beat me soundly in this fight.

Nope. As I recall, we called it a draw. Yes you were beating me up pretty good, nearly sunk me at one point, and would have too if I hadn't chained you a few minutes prior. But since I did, even though I only had 70% sails, I was able to gain ground, repair, and move back into the fight. As you'll recall, I kept on your leeward side (your strong side) and pushed you upwind, held you there, and pounded that side till it was weak. When you reversed into irons you said you had connection issues so we called it a draw. Regardless, by the time you had connection issues, the duel was mine. Double shot loaded, spun around to your weak side as you were in irons, I had another repair going, GG. Take a look at my HP in the screenshot after that repair was done. I had a nearly full health ship again, while you were at 50% sails with 20% HP one side and 30% on the other. So no, I didn't win outright. We called it a draw and I'm careful to state that every time it comes up. However, at the point we called it a draw, I feel confident I would have won if you had been able to keep fighting...guess there's no way to know for sure though. Anyways, we can duel again whenever. But at some point, I want to do a duel with you on my turf (first rate duel) EDIT: and yes, bring back duel room please!

I rarely use accuracy mods (or occasionally just one that is reload + accuracy like Gunnery Encyclopedia or Instruccions aux Cannoniers) on my OW PvP ships and I can still demast just fine with them. Single shot or rolling broadside demasting. Even using carronades up close to snipe with no accuracy mods is fine. Granted, for duels I of course run some accuracy mods. I practiced demasting ages ago with rum rations installed (negative accuracy). The more you practice, you come to realize that single shot sniping isn't necessarily dependent on the width of the firing indicator (although it of course helps when you have accuracy mods and the indicator becomes very narrow); its more about knowing how much windage to adjust for between shots--every ship is different here, because they have different widths between gunports and the guns toward the extreme ends of the ship have to angle differently in order to converge on the center of the firing indicator (assuming unlocked sector auto [but you won't always use that]). Victory, for example, has a non-functional gunport on the 24d deck, right in the center where the entry port is--you have to keep that in mind when using that deck for single shotting masts. Endymion and Surprise, on the other hand, have a very nice spacing between gunports, symmetrical throughout the length of the ship, and they don't have dramatic curves toward either end of the gundeck so moving the firing sector is fairly fluid and predictable. An alternative to moving the firing sector with each shot is to have your ship perform a slow turn as you single shot, this lets you "roll" the broadside, one shot at a time, into the masts (think about guncrews aiming each gun at the target--some will miss and some will hit). Sometimes an enemy who doesn't understand demasting will set himself up perfectly for a demasting shot and you can simply select the proper range, tweak your course, and fire the entire broadside (left click) into the mast(s). I've achieved something like a 90% hit rate (though I don't average nearly that well) in a Cerberus vs Cerberus duel (granted there are only like 13 cannons in the broadside). I had long nines and I didn't have any slots open so no books for accuracy. His foremast fell with just that one well aimed broadside. Previously, with the old damage model, I took multiple masts in single broadsides and I witnessed several first rate duels where 2-3 masts fell in a single rolling broadside. Even now, if you aim well, you can take mast(s) out with a single rolling broadside. Nerfing accuracy will just screw up other parts of the combat model. Its fine like it is. Best advice: learn how to outfit a ship to prevent being demasted, and learn how to sail your ship so that you don't make yourself a super easy target for demasting. Furthermore, if your enemy is focusing masts, you'd better be doing something useful before he gets your masts down. Shoot hull, rake, grape....do something at least semi-useful, whatever you do, don't just sail left and right while flipping out in teamspeak about a guy trying to demast you and how unhistorical that is because you think demasting should be a rare occurrence. I think it should happen in the majority of engagements, as it did historically .

Of course the ships are moving and there is smoke, etc. But lets not forget the people shooting these cannons were trained and used to it all. The technology was state of the art at the time. I'm quite sure the gun crews were disciplined enough to aim their cannons, even through the smoke and rolling ships. Also, if my men aren't "licking their thumbs and sniping at masts" and I've ordered them to demast the enemy, I'll bloody well bring them up after the battle to be tried and punished for their incompetence and failure to perform their duty. Having some chaos and getting shot at by the enemy is not an excuse for them to forget their duty and fire randomly. Cannons still must be aimed. I'll quote Old Crusty here because he has said it very well. Very well said^ Regarding the round pine/fir/softwood masts deflecting cannonballs: again, find a reliable source on that. I fully understand how a round, curved, or angled surface is desirable to deflect shots. Its why we value thickness and angled sides in Naval Action. Its why Constitution got her nickname of "Old Ironsides." Its why, as you say, modern structures meant to withstand being shot at are not square or blocky. But all these things are either a hard wood, and very thick hardwood at that, or a type of steel, modern synthetic, etc. A pine mast is very soft. A 24pd cannonball traveling at over 1600 feet per second has a lot of energy. Basic physics (energy=1/2mv^2)says over 950,000 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Of course calculating ballistic energy isn't quite that simple, a round cannonball bleeds off a lot of energy as it travels, it doesn't have a perfect shape to penetrate armor, etc. but it at least puts the power of these naval cannons into perspective. I don't think a soft pine mast is going to "bounce" a cannonball that powerful. Even "because its rooouuuunnnddd!" The cannonball doesn't even have to lodge in the mast, go through it, take a chunk out, or anything like that, it simply needs to provide enough shock impact to make it fall. If the rigging is cut up from shooting at it, and the sails are still applying force to the mast, it may not take much to shatter that mast. Returning to the single-shot issues: So a ship might not "single-shot snipe" an enemy's mast in real life the same way you see it in game. But remember that, IRL, each cannon is being aimed and fired individually, as soon as it is reloaded. So if the Captain tells the master gunner to shoot down the mainmast of the enemy, he'll have each guncrew aim to take out that mainmast. In Naval Action, we don't have this ability. Our cannons aim where we, the captains, point them. If we want each cannon aimed at the mainmast, we have to do it ourselves, and we don't have the ability to aim all cannons, then fire all cannons. So we have to do it one cannon at a time, "single-shot sniping" style. Furthermore, remember that we don't have the ability in NA to weaken masts by cutting up the rigging first. Masts in NA don't become easier to demast when carrying a full press of canvas. We have to have the ability to "snipe masts" in NA to work around this. We can't aim our individual cannons any other way. We have to have cannons that are accurate enough to hit masts because thats the only way to make masts fall. We have to have masts with set thickness and HP values because there are no mechanics in place to make the strength of masts dynamic (besides structure loss). Unless devs do a complete redesign of the rigging damage model, we can't get rid of single shot demasting or screw around with accuracy values too much without further upsetting the balance of combat. Now I'd love a new rigging damage model that is more realistic and less arcadey; but there are far more pressing issues in NA, such as the ever dwindling playerbase, lack of real PvE content to keep casuals coming back, overpowered 6th rates running around, overpowered mods that further widen the gap between casuals and hardcore players, meaningless RvR, broken ROE in patrol zones, reinforcement zones that are very dangerous to new players who don't understand them but protect veterans who don't want to PvP, just to name a few of NA's current issues.