Masts and rigging damage

[Charles Caldwell]

If you look at the painting above (made by Nicolas Pocock, who was present at the Glorious First of June). Most of the SOLS are demasted.

How did they get to port if they could not repair in the open sea.

 

 

Those that couldnt sail under their own steam were towed...For example from memory I think the Santísima Trinidad was partially demasted in the battle of Trafalgar and had to be towed.

[admin]

Those that couldnt sail under their own steam were towed...For example from memory I think the Santísima Trinidad was partially demasted in the battle of Trafalgar and had to be towed.

 

Agree, but... 

 

We have to look at the demasting together with the open sea. At Trafalgar Nelson/Colingwood were sure that enemy fleet is almost destroyed. They were safe after the battle.

 

In the open world environment, someone might be waiting for you on your way to home ports. Exiting the battle with your fleet damaged with demasted prizes will make you unrealistically vulnerable. With 1000 or more live players in the open you will most likely be destroyed right after a success, if you don't have a tool to at least partially repair. 

 

Our goal for gameplay is to maximize enjoyment, increase number of battles and reduce unnecessary tax on player time, that is why repairs currently are in a more abstract territory.

 

But it is just computer code and if needed we will rework the demasting system. 

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Everything above the mainmasts were generally repairable with spares carried on board.  The lower masts themselves may have been more difficult, but then I don't think they were lost as often either.  Even if they were, they likely could have a top mast and t'gallant mast fitted at the uppermost end of the "stump" as long as they were solid below the break.  You wouldn't be able to fly as much canvas, but you could make a pretty good go at it.

[Prater]

Northern, is that the whole damage log?  I swear I was the first to fire on you in both games with a whole broadside from a victory and I was using solid shot.  I didn't see anyone else fire at you and in both games saw your fore mast go down right when my volley hit you.  Im pretty sure at the time your mast went down on my screen I was the only one firing.  Maybe my game was lagging and the smoke and sound wasn't registering on my game and someone else was firing but I guess there is no way for me to tell if that was the case or not.  That happened to me a few times the last few days where I was taking massive damage but my client wasn't registering broadsides from the ship next to me.  But your damage log doesn't show any shots from a victory (42, 32, 24, and 18lbers) and I was the first to hit you in both games or I at least hit you around the time your mast actually fell if other people were hitting you as well.
 

[PrezesOi]

Lets remove all repairs during combat, and implement kedging, towing ,etc

I'm just kidding ofc

 

 

In above  keddging was used for saving Constitution, but normally it was in use when ship was demasted, and there was no other way to repair it at sea (lack of materials). Of course, this technique was useless on a deeper waters.

[NorthernWolves]

Northern, is that the whole damage log?  I swear I was the first to fire on you in both games with a whole broadside from a victory and I was using solid shot.  I didn't see anyone else fire at you and in both games saw your fore mast go down right when my volley hit you.  Im pretty sure at the time your mast went down on my screen I was the only one firing.  Maybe my game was lagging and the smoke and sound wasn't registering on my game and someone else was firing but I guess there is no way for me to tell if that was the case or not.  That happened to me a few times the last few days where I was taking massive damage but my client wasn't registering broadsides from the ship next to me.  But your damage log doesn't show any shots from a victory (42, 32, 24, and 18lbers) and I was the first to hit you in both games or I at least hit you around the time your mast actually fell if other people were hitting you as well.

 

I really don't remember at this point haha, there were 3 games in a row where I lost 2-3 masts and that was 50 games ago or so for me.

 

I will say I'm quite proud of defeating a Vic and Surprise and a Yacht that same day while I had a 1/4 of my mizzen mast as my only means of locomotion, but NA don't you get the wrong idea now

 

I do remember taking that screen shot (in the other thread) right after I got hit and lost a mast, the first shots I received that specific game, where you were more to my 11 o'clock position and the hit I took was from my 8 o'clock and was a smaller ship, that's all I remember. 

 

I don't know if they've tweaked it silently or not, but I haven't had such a run of bad luck since and I'm not seeing as many masts falling when I'm shooting, so either I had a coincidence of my masts getting hit and me hitting masts in a short period of time (stranger things have happened) or somethings been changed.

[Prater]

I haven't seen many masts get destroyed since that day and I haven't seen any in the past few days at all.

I still don't know how I lost to you in that match.  I think I had pretty much full health and you were just a floating hulk yet somehow I messed it up.

[NorthernWolves]

Well, I don't know either, you're a good sailor, that's why you got an invite

[maturin]

If you look at the painting above (made by Nicolas Pocock, who was present at the Glorious First of June). Most of the SOLS are demasted.

How did they get to port if they could not repair in the open sea.

There were still some fighting for 2 days after trafalgar, does that mean they were fighting jury rigged?

From what I can see, most of those ships still have lower masts. A jury rig replaces a lower mast, and everything else can be repaired.

Which brings up that realism/gameplay compromise I always agitate for. Weak upper masts with a large pool of dedicated, time-intensice repairs, and non-repairable very strong lower masts.

To my mind, the end result in the same: If you use all your repairs and get dismasted in the current build, you are boned. So just make lower masts so strong that losing them is as equally rare, as the above situation.

There are all sorts of historical justifications for making lower masts almost indestructible at long range, and for requiring multiple types of shot to destroy them.

Because seeing the enemy's mast topple is THE MOST rewarding experience in the game so far, and it gives drama and texture to the end of a large fleet battle. So let's find some way to do it without fatally straining credulity or ruining the victim's fun.

[Hetman]

Seems that this thread is lacking a few pics for some people .

 

Mast actually consists of several pieces joined together, it is not a one "tree". Topmasts could (and sometimes) were lowered in anticipation of stormy weather (not only sails).

 

Connection with hull, historically. Pictures of Vasa (heavy).

Weather deck:

 

 

Lower deck, mast column visible - clearly mast heel is deep in the hull:

 

 

Here are interesting US Navy instructions on raising masts in several ways, with good pictures, i suggest looking if not reading: http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/luce/part2.htm

 

 

Here is some random book scan with a few pics: http://santisimatrinidad.jun.pl/printview.php?t=1613&start=0&sid=176bd61013a42d24b977a1e7c9e1eda2

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Thanks Hetman - I think a single, solid mast is a very common misconception.

 

As long as the lower mast is intact, and you have spares, it's trivial to sway up a new top mast, t'gallant mast, or royal mast when one is shot away, or is carried away by the sail (the sail breaks it off due to there being too much wind).  Even if the lower mast has been damaged, you could still cap it at a lower height (assuming the break is above the deck), and once again, use spares to put up top and t'gallant masts, and still put some reasonable sail up (though, of course, not nearly as much as if you had a complete lower mast).

[Prater]

Had this happen to me.  Chustler aimed as low as he could go, and still could only hit my topgallants because his ship was heeling so much.

 

 

 

 

[Prater]

Demasting a victory (warning, large picture):

Shot ID 117, I destroyed the bowspirit with a ranging shot. It showed up in the log as "unsynchronized"

Shot ID 144 destroys the foremast

Somewhere between shot 156 and 177 I destroyed the main mast

Shot ID 208 I destroy the mizzen mast. It shows up as unsynchronized

Not shown, I did 100.1 damage with 2 hits to the masts of a brig in this battle, without destroying any masts.

(warning, large picture of damage log in spoiler)

[Prater]

What does unsynchronized mean in the damage log?

[maturin]

There is growing anecdotal evidence that unsynchronized shot destroy masts dramatically better.

 

I just turned a Trincomalee into a hulk. For the first 15 minutes, I couldn't knock down a single stick. And then bam, two masts down with half a broadside each. Funnily enough, both of these hits were unsynchronized.

 

This would explain why the mast damage seems to fishy and inconsistent. I highly recommend investigating this issue.

[Grunf]

 

it does weaken them. but not enough.. as it is rotating (in theory) instead of hitting directly with force. 

 

 

 

It was possible in certain situations at sea. In combat it was not possible

But in NA masts will be repairable in combat - even lower sections. Its a must for gameplay.

 

 

Although I do not agree with the in-combat repairable masts (perhaps to have an option to disable it in options - as game difficulty mechanic), i can understand and appreciate why it's there from gameplay reasons.

 

I would however suggest the following:

1. Put some sort of a long timer it takes to repair a mast (or a few extra mechanics like):
   1. Clear debris (as someone suggested - this would require crew to cut off dragging part of the mast that still may be attached by rigging (use older movie Capt. Hornblower - with Gregory Peck as reference)
   2. After debris is clear a second timer for rebuilding the mast section (the further down damage has occured, the longer the timer - as it would 'simulate' the difficulty of replacing a mast, so i.e.:
      1. top 1/3 of a mast would take 2-3 minutes,
      2. middle third up to 10 mins, while
      3. the whole mast (or just lower section) would take up to say 20 minutes to repair
   3. This would still simulate 'disabling' your ship for a while (giving other players advantage), and giving you a reason to temporarily withdraw, 'lick your wounds' and then get back into the fight. I also like the idea of partial loss of yaw control due to dragging debris. (if this is doable from the programming perspective, that is a different matter)
2. Also the masts should not be that easy to take down (i heard that got fixed in last patch though). It would take several very skilled shots from proximity to damage mast and riggint to the point where they would break (at least the lower section that is. This could be used to balance out the above from gameplay reasons)

[Black Dynamite]

 

Although I do not agree with the in-combat repairable masts (perhaps to have an option to disable it in options - as game difficulty mechanic), i can understand and appreciate why it's there from gameplay reasons.

 

I would however suggest the following:

1. Put some sort of a long timer it takes to repair a mast (or a few extra mechanics like):
   1. Clear debris (as someone suggested - this would require crew to cut off dragging part of the mast that still may be attached by rigging (use older movie Capt. Hornblower - with Gregory Peck as reference)
   2. After debris is clear a second timer for rebuilding the mast section (the further down damage has occured, the longer the timer - as it would 'simulate' the difficulty of replacing a mast, so i.e.:
      1. top 1/3 of a mast would take 2-3 minutes,
      2. middle third up to 10 mins, while
      3. the whole mast (or just lower section) would take up to say 20 minutes to repair

 

I disagree with this. The game only lasts one hour at the moment so you'd waste over half the game with trying to repair masts. I think the way it is implemented currently is fine. Either you have to waste a repair on sails which you could have used on the hull, or your mobility is hindered. I think that's enough. 

 

 

Also the masts should not be that easy to take down (i heard that got fixed in last patch though). It would take several very skilled shots from proximity to damage mast and riggint to the point where they would break (at least the lower section that is. This could be used to balance out the above from gameplay reasons)

 

 

They're still too easy to break in my opinion. They're based on health so once it reaches a certain point it just breaks. It's really annoying when you have to ships of the line just shooting at your masts to try to break them because they know eventually that they will. Hell I'm guilty of doing it myself. I don't know how they would change it but I don't like the current system.

[Prater]

Black, this sounds strangely familiar

I think repairing masts should take time, but not 20 minutes. 5 minutes for the entire thing at most.

[Grunf]

I tend to agree with him Black.

 

Given amount of aiming and skill it takes to take down the mast, the repair time (and consequently hindrance untill repaired) should be more significant than 20 seconds and 1 repair kit.

Given, maybe not 20 mins, but i was merely thinking the gravity of the dismasting vs repair time. Insert some sensible timer there

[Prater]

Even 1 or 2 minutes for 1 mast (the entire mast from top to bottom) would be sufficient I think.  Maybe 20-45 seconds per section?  20 seconds would be 1 minute for an entire mast.  45 seconds would be 2 min 15 seconds.  Couple that with having to use a repair and that is a pretty significant set back.

[DazednConfused]

hey guys.

 

I had a very superficial look at the forums before asking this question so please forgive me if it has been asked before;

 

when you have been dismasted is there any possibility of having the mast stay connected to the ship causing it to turn into the wind? and perhaps having the option to cut away the wreckage with an action similar to boarding or capturing a ship?

 

at the moment there isn't such a catastrophic effect as there would be with historical reality, and this option would be a good compromising effect without getting too complex. 

 

I suppose the most difficult thing would be the animation of the mast draped in the water, but perhaps the use of a generic image for fore, main and mizzen would suffice? -just enough to let you and your opponent know that you are handicapped?

 

am I asking too much here? apologies if I am.

 

thoughts?

 

cheers. Dazed

[Wetworth]

I like this idea, but have no clue how easily it could be implemented or the complexity involved. Force the wounded ship to switch to survival or face a speed and maneuverability penalty.

[Skogz]

I've actually never seen anything other than the frontal mast break off. Is it just luck that the others can be broken?

[Wetworth]

Yes, you can lose them all and be reduced to a row boat.

[DazednConfused]

had another thought;

 

this would also almost eliminate the deliberate ram from the game,(disregard testing alpha because this wont be implemented there). As along with the massive leaks/ dmg penalty, your masts may topple and cause you to be a sitting duck until wreckage is cleared away