Map location indicator needed. Realism

[Ghroznak]

Next people will want the ability to set a course and have auto pilot take them there while they watch a tv and do something else.

Your argument makes no sense.

I could be just as negative as you, in the opposite direction.

I might as well say, 'Next people will want the ability to connect a rowing machine to the PC so they have to row ashore after docking in a town.'

Making extremes your only argument simply invalidates it.

[Fletch]

Yet another attempt by someone to dumb the game down because they cant be bothered to learn to play it the hard way.

[Sylven1]

Yet another attempt by someone to dumb the game down because they cant be bothered to learn to play it the hard way.

How is putting a compass and ruler on the map and getting rid of the F11 GPS coordinates that you can cross reference on Google Maps "dumbing the game down"?

How is putting in a Sextant and allowing us to get a rough estimate once a day at noon threw some means "dumbing the game down" more then pressing F11 and going to Google Maps?

Is Alt-Tabbing a sign of higher intelligence now? Or being able to use two computers?

[charognard666]

I'm really in favor to add a navigation simulation part to the game, with some navigation officier skills, and the right tools like sextant, clock rules and compas, like in Sillent Hunter games... 

[Aubrey]

How is putting a compass and ruler on the map and getting rid of the F11 GPS coordinates that you can cross reference on Google Maps "dumbing the game down"?

How is putting in a Sextant and allowing us to get a rough estimate once a day at noon threw some means "dumbing the game down" more then pressing F11 and going to Google Maps?

Is Alt-Tabbing a sign of higher intelligence now? Or being able to use two computers?

He didn't even read the thread, he read the title any maybe 1-2 posts and quickly hit the reply button.

Post counts shouldn't exist, so people stop to boost them for whatever reason.

[Rubble]

 'Next people will want the ability to connect a rowing machine to the PC so they have to row ashore after docking in a town.'

 

 

That is a FANTASTIC idea!.

 

'Lose weight and get lean fast with Naval action deluxe rowers edition'! (rowing machine not included).

Edited February 9, 2016 by Rubble

[sir Arska]

I am finding I am wasting a lot of time trying to find locations and getting lost and giving up due to having to rely on compass and  guess work, and not really knowing where I am on the map. In reality a Captain was rarely lost and logged his location on his charts. He was able to do this because he had a sextant to shoot the stars/sun. This game is about being as close to reality as we can have. To not be able to see our position on the map is not realistic to the times. If the game mechanics were able to replicated a sextant type system great, but of course this would be far too complicated. In order to accurately reflect the historical reality and for the very same reasons Captains needed it, can we please have our location marked on the map with a dot/ship icon.

 

I like it as it is.

I do not like any location info to map. As it is now it is OK. One has to lean to read map and navigate with the compass.  Now this is historically correct. Any location info on the map ruins the game.

[Tindahbawx]

If the map was just given a basic compass and heading indicator, like this online map  http://burningsail.com/   it would go a long way to helping players. On top of that, a basic relief map of the islands would be neat too, so you could better estimate your location in the sea without having to find a town to use as a base point, you could use a prominent mountain or similar.

 

You don't need the exact location given, I've not found myself needing it.

 

A full suite of plotting tools like you get in Silent Hunter would be neat though.

[Ghroznak]

I like it as it is.

I do not like any location info to map. As it is now it is OK. One has to lean to read map and navigate with the compass.  Now this is historically correct. Any location info on the map ruins the game.

 

False.

 

In the age this game is set in, given that ships like the Constitution was launched in 1797, it means we are playing in a timeline that is early 19th century.

 

The Sextant was invented in early 18th century, nearly a century before the timeline we are playing in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant). That means we can get, fairly, accurate Latitude (north/south) locations on a map.

 

The Chronometer was invented in mid-18th century, and 4th version of it was available in 1761 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer). This enables us to also estimate longitude (east/west) locations on a map.

 

Put sextant + chronometer information together and you get an intersection between the north-south position and the east-west position... ergo, using historically accurate instruments you can, good weather provided, estimate your position on a map.

 

They did NOT rely exclusive on a compass and a map in neither the 18th nor 19th century when crossing open waters in ships.

[Knite]

It doesn't seem unreasonable to include in the game contemporary navigational devices.

 

I only have 9 hours so far, but I've managed to get lost only twice; the first time was because I didn't realize the map doesn't show you where you are, and the second time was because I went the wrong way after spawning back into the OW after a mission. Dead reckoning is an OK method of navigation, but given that the devs seem to be interested in adding realism where it improves gameplay, I don't see why adding the ability to navigate would detract from the game.

 

We are the captains of our ship; the captain did not hold the sole responsibility of navigation, fire control, or damage control. The captain's orders dictate when things happen, but the ship is crewed and the crew largely performs many of these functions somewhat independently of the captain.

 

I would greatly enjoy navigating with the aid of a sextant and a chronometer, even if dead reckoning is already a satisfactory way of navigating; I want to feel as much like a captain of these ships as possible. These captains did not navigate solely by dead reckoning, and so neither should I.

 

I'm with the camp that would like to see crew skills/crew equipment that adds/improves more fine navigational ability.

[Prater]

False.

 

In the age this game is set in, given that ships like the Constitution was launched in 1797, it means we are playing in a timeline that is early 19th century.

 

The Sextant was invented in early 18th century, nearly a century before the timeline we are playing in (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant). That means we can get, fairly, accurate Latitude (north/south) locations on a map.

 

The Chronometer was invented in mid-18th century, and 4th version of it was available in 1761 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer). This enables us to also estimate longitude (east/west) locations on a map.

 

Put sextant + chronometer information together and you get an intersection between the north-south position and the east-west position... ergo, using historically accurate instruments you can, good weather provided, estimate your position on a map.

 

They did NOT rely exclusive on a compass and a map in neither the 18th nor 19th century when crossing open waters in ships.

 

An accurate Marine Chronometer wasn't economically and widely available until about the 1820s, the very tail end of the game.  Otherwise the chronometers were very error prone or very expensive.

 

For example, even in 1815, not all ships carried Chronometers because they were too expensive.  An East Indiaman was wrecked in that year because of it.

[ObiQuiet]

Prater is right. The best way to determine longitude is to compare high noon where you are with high noon at a known place. The time difference tells you how far around the planet you are.

Analogous to how the height of Polaris above the horizon fortunately tells you your northern latitude with sufficient accuracy.

All other methods involve less useful observations, lots of look up tables, and math.

For a very readable account see Dava Sobel's book Longitude. Or watch the movie, which has less in it

[Ghroznak]

An accurate Marine Chronometer wasn't economically and widely available until about the 1820s, the very tail end of the game.  Otherwise the chronometers were very error prone or very expensive.

 

For example, even in 1815, not all ships carried Chronometers because they were too expensive.  An East Indiaman was wrecked in that year because of it.

 

True, which is why, as I have suggested, your map location is not pinpoint accurate but shows the general area you are in, visualized by a circle of varying size depending on:

 

• Weather - Random by game engine
• Skill of crew (officers) - Crew needs to be implemented in the game, but skill depends on how much pay they get and how long you have 'leveled' them up.
• Quality of equipment (charts, chronometer, sextants, etc) - Upgrades you can buy to improve this.

Heck, I am all for a chronometer not being standard (which sextants and charts would be, but then at what the game recognizes as basic level unless you have upgrades equipped), and thus would have to be bought and with varying quality in order to establish your Longitude. And with no chronometer all you get is a broad horizontal line on the map that visualizes how far north-south on the map you are, but tells you nothing about how far east-west you are.

 

Either way, sextants, charts and chronometers WERE historically available in the era we are sailing in. Ergo, there is no reason for these tools to not be implemented (sensibly) in the game.

 

In fact, considering the massive impact sextants and chronometers had in terms of the progress and growth of shipping in the 18th and 19th century it would be a tremendous oversight to not have these represented, again sensibly, in the game. They are a huge part of naval history, and the timeline we are in when sailing in this game is precisely the moment in time when their importance was fully recognized and became, in modern terms, a game changer for navigation and worldwide naval shipping.

 

This makes me completely confused as to why there are even some on the forum here that I know absolutely and fully love sailships and their time in history, but are opposed to seeing one the biggest breakthrough in navigation (not counting the GPS) from being implemented. Especially when people are opposed to these, historically correct tools, but then in their next line tell us to use F11 for GPS coordinates.

[ObiQuiet]

Well, I suppose it is that those with more experience navigating the game world come to the conclusion that simulated tools won't actually add much interest to the game.

Undeniably they are conspicuous by their absence at first. And, most agree that an easy way to get your aproximate location and determibe headings would be both useful and realistic.

Making it skill or experience related is less attractive since the game world is flat and all you need is a ruler and a compass to get around just fine.

[Ghroznak]

Making it skill or experience related is less attractive since the game world is flat and all you need is a ruler and a compass to get around just fine.

 

Using a ruler and compass means you know your location in the first place.

 

Also, considering the ships suffer no drift from wind (e.g. picture below) or currents also oversimplify the current gameplay as it allows you to sail in a perfect line according to your compass.

 

 

If those things were added then current way of sailing would certainly be different.

 

Also, I don't know many people who use a ruler and protractor against their monitor to plot a course. While I understand that some (simmers mostly) revel in having to do such manual tasks using real life tools (which is why steering wheels, pedals, HOTAS and other peripherals exist for gaming), such things should be in-game features which you can click/drag and use on the ingame maps.

 

A great example being Silent Hunter submarine games where you have multiple tools you can use on the ingame map (see image below). No reason why this could not be added to Naval Action. In fact, I would absolutely love to see something similar to this in Naval Action and make navigation an actual part of the game, and not just eyeballing massively oversized islands at exaggerated distances.

 

Oh yeah, ignore the gauges for speed and depth. The interface as such would have to be more aligned with the age of sails era.

 

[charognard666]

I m totaly agree with you Ghroznak, it would be a really cool addition to the actual gameplay...

[ObiQuiet]

Thanks for the detailed reply Ghroznak. I agree with you (it was I who put the course lines and noon sight on top of Prater's msp at tdamap.com, one of the first of several player made navigation aids to do so).

I also spoke about drift and error in my "harsh words" rant post.

[Prater]

Many of us want a sextant mini game to give you your general location.  I have detailed a few ideas in many places.  However, the devs probably won't do this.  They said the map was a huge concession for them and the farthest they were willing to go.  However, not all of us are without the necessary tools.  And I'm sure glad we live in a modern age, doing the calculations by hand each time would be a major pain in t.

[Shoklar]

There does need to be some sort of improvement.  I've gotten pretty good with dead reckoning navigation, but at the same time...you should have SOME general idea of where you are.

[Xoosch]

There does need to be some sort of improvement.  I've gotten pretty good with dead reckoning navigation, but at the same time...you should have SOME general idea of where you are.

I can really recommend these map http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/8451-shrouded-recluses-map-with-accurate-coords/ 

Together with the ingame coordinates you get from using F11 you can with a bit traning, easy estimate where you are.

[ObiQuiet]

There does need to be some sort of improvement.  I've gotten pretty good with dead reckoning navigation, but at the same time...you should have SOME general idea of where you are.

 

This is what ours looks like.  Is that what you had in mind?

 

[Tindahbawx]

This is what ours looks like.  Is that what you had in mind?

 

 

Fantastic!

 

"We're near some islands sir!"

 

"Yes, Lt. Stibbons, I know we're nears some bloody islands, we're in the Carribean for god sakes man, which islands are we near!?"

 

"I'll have to get back to you on that, sir!"

 

[Svartschegg]

Honestly I stopped reading this thread after four pages because there are no arguments beyond "its possible to know where you are, you just have to spend loads of time keeping track of it and use external tools, which works fine for me", so there may have been a few other pseudo-arguments raised since then. Rant follows:

 

Realism

The hardcore players claim to want realism because this is a skill-based game, and somehow think that getting the GPS coordinates from a debugging feature adds to that, whereas knowing where you are on a map is unthinkable blasphemy.

 

TDAMap.com

"Everyone can use TDAMap.com" seems to be a popular argument. So basically you have the tools to get your location with low effort, but only the veterans know about these hacks and tools that are spread across the internet. This is a great way to exclude new players for no good reason.

 

Casual players

Someone claimed casual players wont stick around, so why cater to them. I don't even..

Someone else mentioned that the "vast majority" feels the lack of positioning is fine. I think it's a fair assumption to think that casual players don't get involved in forums and voice their wishes and desires for a game's development.

 

Skills

Touching on the subject of whether the game is skillbased and whatnot; The game I paid for is described as "Naval Action is an exciting, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox". The key take-away here is the phrase "naval combat". It's not a "read the stars simulator".

[Ghroznak]

This is what ours looks like.  Is that what you had in mind?

 

 

A general area indication, like the box shown on your map there, is exactly how I was thinking the positioning to be through the use of an ingame navigational aid feature.

 

You don't know exactly where you are, but you have a rough idea (ergo, somewhere inside of that box).

 

While the development of the TDA map and all is incredible work and greatly appreciated by many, I strongly believe that such a thing should exist within the game itself (thus available to everyone) and not exclusively outside the game where it remains unknown to most until they, through hearsay in the game, learn of it's existence.

 

I truly hope they will take a TDA style map onboard in the game itself. Then we can open a beautiful map like the one you have at the TDA website, manually set our location by double clicking the map, set a course and during our journey, once a day or however it is implemented, we can do a positioning which gives us that big grey box (or a circle, whichever works) to let us know our rough position.

[B4DD4WG]

I love that map..But let me add, we pay these Dev's, great Dev's, so something like this should be in the game, not done by a fans, at a website we have to switch back and forth to. No offence to the fan! Great Job! to them. Maybe the Dev's would like to hire him/them to make one for the game.

I would love it if the map in game was like this. Would be nice to actually see the tools, interact with them. Instead of just having a "box" with "you are here". Use a interactive magnifying glass. Inside the glass is your random location. Depending on the distance of the trip, might depend on how far in, or out, the magnifier is "zoomed" into the map.

Again, very nice map. But, again, the Dev's should have all these "tools" in the game.